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[GravityInsanity]

Less of this, basically:

Lol so true. At times I thought Lara was going to start flying.

 

[BBboy20]

Let her embrace the fact she's a mass murderer.

May as well have the word "Shadow" have actual meaning.

 

[Harlequin]

I'd really like to see platforming given at least equal attention to combat. I'm not really coming to these games to stealth/murder five hundred guys, I want to do the thing that it says on the front of the box. In Nu Tomb Raider and Uncharted the platforming is never anything more than downtime between the actual challenging gameplay. Give me a grip button, jumps that need a run-up, the rhythm elements and gymnastic routines from the Legend trilogy; all that good stuff.

Less of this, basically:

I agree with your post (although I honestly don't really care about Legend's gymnastic routines and I'd add to that that they should ditch magnetic ledges and ledge hopping) but I think that gif actually isn't that bad. At least it shows the manual mid-air steering which is sth LAU didn't have.

 

[Rodney McKay]

For as much as RotTR hyped that it would be making tombs a bigger part of the game, they felt just like the tiny experiences they were from the first reboot game, little rooms where you solve one or two simple puzzles and some basic platforming. There may have been more of them in RotTR, but they still felt insubstantial.

I really want them to have larger scale tombs (or just the main levels themselves, which IMO should include tombs, not just big open outdoor areas).

I also hope that the combat is more like it was in the first game. I loved the action in the first reboot game, but RotTR just felt off to me. One thing I didn't like was how they handled upgrades in the latest one. I thought that by finding all the pieces to the legendary bow near the end of the game that it would be a substantial upgrade, but even with all the upgrades for it, the first bow you get was still the one I preferred. I hope that next time if they have unlockable weapons that they are actually good enough to replace previous ones, and not just slight stat re-tweaks.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

They'll never do it, but if they made the climbing system more engaging/challenging, that would be awesome.

There's a great game makers toolkit on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo

Just watched it, great video! Illustrates some of the points others have been making:

You were responding to someone calling out a "too uncharted" point, which is why I was looking for a specific connection to Uncharted...

I'd really like to see platforming given at least equal attention to combat. I'm not really coming to these games to stealth/murder five hundred guys, I want to do the thing that it says on the front of the box. In Nu Tomb Raider and Uncharted the platforming is never anything more than downtime between the actual challenging gameplay. Give me a grip button, jumps that need a run-up, the rhythm elements and gymnastic routines from the Legend trilogy; all that good stuff...

From the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=22s
”[0:22]...The year is 1996. You're playing Tomb Raider on PlayStation, and you need to jump between two platforms. What do you do? Well, first you have to line up the jump, by walking to the edge... [1:47]...I think we also lost something in the transition to the ultra simple traversal controls we see in games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and Uncharted. The old system [in the classic Tomb Raider games] demanded expertise. You became a master of the controls, like how you learn to subconsciously flick trick in and out of every grind and manual in Tony Hawk's, and you had to act deliberately, and with intention, like – dare I say it – Dark Souls. And in Tomb Raider [1996], a leap across a giant chasm is almost as terrifying and rewarding as it would be in real life. Whereas that exact same jump in the decade-later remake, Tomb Raider Anniversary, is so bereft of challenge that you barely even register that it happened..."

As was noted on the last page:

...Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming... However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far...

And in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=208s
”[3:28]...Thankfully, we can, and a number of smaller games show us that movement can still be as deep and involving as, like, murdering a dude. Perhaps the most obvious example is first-person parkour game, Mirror's Edge. This game is all about movement, and you have so much control over the way protagonist Faith moves through the world. She has acceleration on her run so she can jump farther after she has built up speed. She can tuck mid-jump to clear high fences, and roll when she hits the ground to avoid fall damage. Her large repertoire of moves give you more options when moving through a space. In this early section, you can... and..."

 

[Tosyn_88]

They should use the design principles of the classics as inspiration to build from rather than uncharted. People who pretend the new ones don't carry heavy uncharted bones are being deliberately blind

 

[Lime]

We don't know exactly what kind of arrangement they've got going on there, though. It's likely that they've been instructed to stick to Crystal's reboot design formula and aren't allowed to stray too far from it. I also wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Crystal are overseeing the project and are in charge of some of the big decision like the main plot points/character development, etc.

"we don't care what you do with Tomb Raider, just make sure Lara has daddy issues"

 

[FlashFlooder]

Better combat. I thought Rise had decent puzzles, and the climbing is certainly more engaging than Uncharted... but combat just feels so stiff and unfun. The aiming is pretty awful, no blindfire from cover, melee could be better.

 

[Adam_Vania]

first game's cutscenes had a cheeky, pulp quality to them. b-movie adventures quips and all. Lara was a lot closer to a cold, calculating, self-reliant femme fatale imo. the intro to the first mission has her guide eaten by wolves and she doesn't even mourn for a second (a la Raiders of the Lost Ark's intro).

they should go back to this style if they reboot it. she's doing superhuman things constantly w all the climbing, they could stand to bring some of that outlandishness back.

 

[Makki]

Less suffering, less torture porn, more obstacle climbing, more puzzles... bring back the shorts and tank

 

[Samurai G0SU]

are they going to use the same actress for VO and motion capture?

 

[McMoneyman]

I wish Lara would be a bit more interesting. If they could go back to the old school Lara, but maybe tweek some of the aspects of her that wouldn't fly these days.

 

[Fug Slanderson]

It's not gonna happen, but I want a TR game that is 90% about solving massive, intricate puzzles.

 

[Grady]

A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.

I actually enjoy tomb raider more than uncharted. At least there are optional things to do in tomb raider and some exploration. Uncharted is just set pieces and swarms of enemies for like 10 hrs straight. Don't see the comparison with the exception they both have cover shooter elements.

 

[patapuf]

Doom worked because it mixed what was successful about the old games with what's successful about FPS games that have come out since. It didn't renounce all of the 'improvements' to control schemes of the last 23 years and revert to no mouselook, it had a well designed and integrated weapon skillpoint/upgrade/perk system, it gave clues and hints about when secrets were nearby, etc.

When you see people say 'nothing but tombs' (the game has frequently visited non-tombs since the second installment), 'no human enemies' (the first game had human enemies and they became a staple in 2), 'every single action must be performed by the player' (this sounds more like you want QWOP than tomb raider), it seems like people aren't really asking for Tomb Raider to pull as Doom 2k16 as much as they want it to revert to some idealised version of the game precisely as it was 20 years ago.

That all said, I think that a DOOM Raider could work (call it an XCOM Raider too, if you like) and it could be great: I just don't think it would turn out like a lot of the people who really hate Tomb Raider 2013 would like.

I agree that they don't need to throw out everything the reboots brought to table. The combat, some metroidvania elements ect. not all is bad.

I still think the game would benefit a lot from having more puzzles and platforming though. If we keep the comparison to DOOM and XCOM, those did a much better job at keeping the spirit of their predecessors. The TR reboots emulate contemporary action games, rather than sucessfully "modernising" the old formula.

 

[sixteen-bit]

cyberpunk backdrop

 

[Jazzem]

Gimme some levity and a sense of fun! I don't think the gritty tone suits the series personally.

 

[Spirited]

More puzles and old Tomb Raider stuff, less shooting and an actual ok story instead of the complete garbage that has been in the last two.

I do like the last two Tomb Raider games but it could legitimately be fantastic games if they fixed up these things I mentioned.

 

[Roufianos]

The game needs to be more focused. Fuck the open world areas, the side quests, the crafting and all that shit.

The last game was just so bloated. I'd take a more linear game with tighter level design and mechanics anyday.

 

[BlackLagoon]

I whole-heartedly disagree. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming. They replaced three-dimensional, challenging platform-to-platform traversal with (mostly) two-dimensional, over-automated ledge-hopping. That's like telling Soulsborne fans that those game's combat is very similar to Assassin's Creed's combat . However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far.

How is a frantic, super twitchy game like Mirror's Edge in any way comparative to the slow, deliberate tank controls of classic Tomb Raider? In TR the timing was usually pretty generous, you just had to take your time, figure out what to do and then commit to it a bit in advance. ME is a non-stop barrage of tight jumps needing split-second reactions, turning TR into that sounds worse than the current incarnation.

 

[Novocaine]

A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.

So a game with good combat and puzzles then?

I mean I think TR'13 and RotTR both had that already.

 

[brandonh83]

I'm playing through Rise right now, and I can't say that it feels like Uncharted too much really. Uncharted is mostly story-driven and a lot more linear than the new Tomb Raider entries. The new Tomb Raider has a much heavier emphasis on exploration and upgrading, and gives you numerous sandbox-y, interconnected areas to play in and explore. There's a story, but it's not full of cutscenes and walk-and-talk narrative design. I'm also enjoying this much more than Uncharted 4 because of these things.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep doing what they've been doing. If by it's too much like Uncharted someone means that it's a third person action/adventure where you shoot things, yeah, I guess. I dunno. I simply disagree.

 

[NeoRaider]

I'm playing through Rise right now, and I can't say that it feels like Uncharted too much really. Uncharted is mostly story-driven and a lot more linear than the new Tomb Raider entries. The new Tomb Raider has a much heavier emphasis on exploration and upgrading, and gives you numerous sandbox-y, interconnected areas to play in and explore. There's a story, but it's not full of cutscenes and walk-and-talk narrative design. I'm also enjoying this much more than Uncharted 4 because of these things.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep doing what they've been doing. If by it's too much like Uncharted someone means that it's a third person action/adventure where you shoot things, yeah, I guess. I dunno. I simply disagree.

Thank you for this post.
I agree 100%.

 

[Harlequin]

How is a frantic, super twitchy game like Mirror's Edge in any way comparative to the slow, deliberate tank controls of classic Tomb Raider? In TR the timing was usually pretty generous, you just had to take your time, figure out what to do and then commit to it a bit in advance. ME is a non-stop barrage of tight jumps needing split-second reactions, turning TR into that sounds worse than the current incarnation.

You're right in saying that Mirror's Edge feels more fast-paced, however, I think that ME's first-person view contributes a lot to that sensation of speed, making everything feel and look a bit faster and more frantic than it would from a third-person perspective. The other main reason for the difference in pacing is probably that, in the old TR games, you often had to pause and line up a jump before continuing on your way due to the way the running jump worked and ME obviously doesn't have that.

However, the old TRs definitely had their fast-paced moments and timing is a big part of controlling Lara in those games. You need to know when to press the jump button so Lara is going to jump from the right spot. Press it too early or too late and she'll miss or fall down. Furthermore, you need to aim your jumps properly (and if you don't, the game is not going to help you out by having ledges pull you towards them), you need to make sure you have enough momentum to reach certain spots, you need to understand and master the controls to succeed and the level design features a lot of platform-to-platform traversal as opposed to the LAU games and at least the first Mirror's Edge really had this sense of having to figure out where to go and how to use the environment to your advantage, finding a path. That's something I haven't felt in a Tomb Raider entry for a long time. So yeah, like I said, I do think that Mirror's Edge has far more similarities with the classic TR games than any of Crystal's Tomb Raider games so far.

 

[HyperCroutons]

I actually like what Crystal Dynamics has been doing with the Tomb Raider games gameplay wise, personally I find controlling Lara and the combat enjoyable in them also the worlds in them are excellent so that could stay the same.

If there's one thing they should definitely fix is give the story a little more humor or lighten it up at times because it seems to take itself way to serious. Although if they did that they probably be considered copying the Uncharted games even more.

Make the puzzles more central to the story instead of making them side missions and I think they struck the right balance of scripted moments in Rise compared to the 2013's scripted moments.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Inspired by LordKasual's post, from another thread:

...the original Tomb Raider has enough great trap designs to fill this thread. Many of the game's platforming "puzzles" were essentially just traps that required enough foresight to navigate. People never believe me...but the only game that has ever come close to the amount of genuine fear the Soulsborne games can instill in me have been the original Tomb Raider games.

And as described further in Mark Brown's Game Maker's Toolkit video, which explicitly invokes Dark Souls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=22s
”[0:22]...The year is 1996. You're playing Tomb Raider on PlayStation, and you need to jump between two platforms. What do you do? Well, first you have to line up the jump, by walking to the edge... [1:47]...I think we also lost something in the transition to the ultra simple traversal controls we see in games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and Uncharted. The old system [in the classic Tomb Raider games] demanded expertise. You became a master of the controls, like how you learn to subconsciously flick trick in and out of every grind and manual in Tony Hawk's, and you had to act deliberately, and with intention, like – dare I say it – Dark Souls. And in Tomb Raider [1996], a leap across a giant chasm is almost as terrifying and rewarding as it would be in real life. Whereas that exact same jump in the decade-later remake, Tomb Raider Anniversary, is so bereft of challenge that you barely even register that it happened..."

I suggested in a previous post that it might be worthwhile to consider the following question:

So can anything be extrapolated from the success of the Soulsborne games? Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?

It is clear that many are skeptical:

The more I read "true Tomb Raider fans" describe the game they think they want, the more I understand why the series' original iterations died horribly in both sales and critical reactions...

Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this...

But I think many others have at least made a reasonable case:

I don't see why, with some brain power firing, the original ingredients can't be updated in an appealing way. I don't think anyone is saying to include tank controls, the archaic-as-fuck combat system or any of that, but the core aspects that made the early Tomb Raiders so appealing are timeless fun if updated thoughtfully in my opinion. Making traversal borderline automatic... and turning it into a TPS slaughterfest really is the antithesis of the original game's 3D Prince Of Persia platformer meets cool Indiana Jones-esque exploration appeal. I'm not a game designer but I just can't fathom what could stand in the way of intelligently updating a game with focus on weight and challenging traversal, exploration, puzzling, archaeology and so on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=208s
"...Thankfully, we can, and a number of smaller games show us that movement can still be as deep and involving as, like, murdering a dude... She has acceleration on her run so she can jump farther after she has built up speed. She can tuck mid-jump to clear high fences, and roll when she hits the ground to avoid fall damage. Her large repertoire of moves give you more options when moving through a space. In this early section, you can... and..."

In particular, I wanted to highlight the following point:

They were hardly queuing around the block for the current incarnation [Rise of the Tomb Raider]...

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-first-month-pc-sales-almos/1100-6435094/
...Research group Superdata today released its digital sales report for January 2016, and among other things, it was revealed that Square Enix's Rise of the Tomb Raider sold nearly three times more copies on PC in its first month than the Xbox One version over the same period of time in November....

https://galyonk.in/steam-sales-in-2016-def2a8ab15f2#.uwonmp717

Estimated Steam Sales based on SteamSpy

Dark Souls 3 (Released 4/11/16): 1,335,722 new owners / $63,630,874.48 in revenue
Rise of the Tomb Raider (Released 01/28/16): 1,303,957 new owners / $54,898,279.78 in revenue

Even if the estimate is not 100% spot on, Dark Souls 3 doing >60 million in revenue without DLC, just on Steam is insane.

...But the original Tomb Raider (1996) sold 7 million copies (video), think about that in context to today. They can afford to get more old-school players back...

I explained the reason for making this comparison (between Tomb Raider and Dark Souls) at great length in the previous post, since I'm really quite interested in hearing opinions on the following question:

So can anything be extrapolated from the success of the Soulsborne games? Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?

 

[Harlequin]

Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?

I am not so sure. I think part of the Soulsborne appeal is that you fight against actual adversaries which makes the whole challenge/difficulty angle far easier to sell to people. Communicating that just the navigation of an obstacle course (=level) in and of itself is that challenging, that the level is the adversary, I think that's more difficult. That being said, I have no idea how big the market for these kinds of games is today, how many people there are out there who would buy and enjoy a classic TR-style game. At the end of the day, I feel like it really depends on marketing. You pump enough marketing dollars into a game and it's almost guaranteed to be a success (if it's half-decent, though sometimes even if it's not), you get stingy on the marketing and even a great game can end up being a flop.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I am not so sure. I think part of the Soulsborne appeal is that you fight against actual adversaries which makes the whole challenge/difficulty angle far easier to sell to people. Communicating that just the navigation of an obstacle course (=level) in and of itself is that challenging, that the level is the adversary, I think that's more difficult. That being said, I have no idea how big the market for these kinds of games is today, how many people there are out there who would buy and enjoy a classic TR-style game. At the end of the day, I feel like it really depends on marketing. You pump enough marketing dollars into a game and it's almost guaranteed to be a success (if it's half-decent, though sometimes even if it's not), you get stingy on the marketing and even a great game can end up being a flop.

Thanks for your response! You've raised some good points. Not sure I can add all that much at the moment, but I do think it's definitely a question worth considering.

first game's cutscenes had a cheeky, pulp quality to them. b-movie adventures quips and all. Lara was a lot closer to a cold, calculating, self-reliant... the intro to the first mission has her guide eaten by wolves and she doesn't even mourn for a second (a la Raiders of the Lost Ark's intro). they should go back to this style if they reboot it. she's doing superhuman things constantly w all the climbing, they could stand to bring some of that outlandishness back.

On that specific point, I think there are a few things worth highlighting, which have broader implications with respect to Lara's characterization. Here's how RagnarokX describes that intro:

Here is how we were introduced to Lara for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHJuFhcRICE

To summarize: we are shown a magazine showing Lara on the cover saying that she caught bigfoot. She makes a witty remark rebuffing the advances of a man that hits on her. Natla offers her money and Lara tells her she only hunts for sport. Natla describes how dangerous and unexplored the adventure will be Lara smiles. Lara treks to Peru and opens the door to the caves. Her sherpa is attacked and she tries to save him but is unable to.

In this small cutscene we know all we really need to know about Lara. She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it.

Core went on to flesh her out a bit. She got the adventure bug after her plane crashed in the Himalayas where she survived for several days before she was rescued. Her rich parents didn't approve of her lifestyle and sent her on adventure with famed archeologist Werner Von Croy to get it out of her system and eventually disowned her. Here's Lara on her first real adventure as cocky as ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTS1XvqRrCA

When Crystal Dynamics took over, for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her...

From the intro, we see that: "She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it." Absolutely. No argument there.

However, we also see that she not only tries to save the guide and is unable to, but before doing anything else, she kneels down to check for a pulse, to confirm that there's nothing more that can be done to save the guide's life... and it is then that her irresistible fascination with the tomb that has just opened up – her compulsive enthusiasm for exploring the dangerous/unknown/mysterious – completely overwhelms any other 'normal' human impulses one might have, in a situation where someone helping you has just been violently killed.

We don't see any belabored inner struggle, we don't see any ham-fisted pathos, we don't see any lack of resolve: but we've taken Lara's pulse, and confirmed her basic decency.

I think that the emphasis on her being an indiscriminate ”badass" – the emphasis on Lara's ”aggression", in the words of Eric Lindstrom of Crystal Dynamics – can tend to obscure what is ultimately most compelling about her, and (as many other folks have pointed out) may have the effect of reducing her charisma, in comparison with the charming/quippy/light-hearted Nathan Drake or Indiana Jones types:

Classic Lara Croft is still one of the best game characters... Her passions, resources, and abilities are ones that are fun to (pretend to) have. It's unfortunate that a lot of people can only see her as an object. I don't think it is specifically lacking vulnerability that makes her so great, it's that she is the kind of person who sets up a huge obstacle course to practice on. That's just awesome, and shows how much she enjoys what she does...

The way that Eric [Lindstrom] downplays the significance of the changes to Lara's bio is quite interesting. As I see it, the [obviously quite cringeworthy] ”...rarely left her father's side... father's full-time apprentice" bit in the new [Crystal Dynamics] bio actually occurs alongside [an even more thoroughgoing] simplification of Lara's mental life: this new Lara is compulsive, brutal, irresponsible, accomplished, we're told, but without any of the necessary indications that this compulsiveness emerges fundamentally from Lara's overwhelming enthusiasm for the hunt and for adventure, an enthusiasm which in turn emerges precisely from her admirable qualities, her greater perceptiveness, insight, understanding and so on. All of this comes across much better, from within the Core Design bio...

 

[killatopak]

Boobies

/s but a bit serious at the same time.

I want something like mgs3 where you get everything you need in the jungle. No regenerating health and bullets are limited.

 

[Luminaire]

Simultaneous release on all platforms.

This, above all.

But I guess I'd like something darker with some mild horror touches. Perhaps exploring an ancient haunted city, just one big city.

 

[Cave Johnson]

I actually like what Crystal Dynamics has been doing with the Tomb Raider games gameplay wise, personally I find controlling Lara and the combat enjoyable in them also the worlds in them are excellent so that could stay the same.

If there's one thing they should definitely fix is give the story a little more humor or lighten it up at times because it seems to take itself way to serious. Although if they did that they probably be considered copying the Uncharted games even more.

Make the puzzles more central to the story instead of making them side missions and I think they struck the right balance of scripted moments in Rise compared to the 2013's scripted moments.

You mean the standard over the shoulder 3rd person mechanics. It's not exclusive Tomb Raider - you might as well use Dead Space or Uncharted . I prefer the game have some sort of identity, both Deus Ex and Hitman's modern iterations are closer to their source material while nu-Raider goes far from it which I find strange. Those games could've thrown out everything and done exactly what the current Tomb Raider does following the standard AAA formula.

 

[Garlador]

Gimme some levity and a sense of fun! I don't think the gritty tone suits the series personally.

Mostly this. It doesn't have to be non-stop quips, but having just started Uncharted for the first time, THAT game reminds me more of the tone of the original Tomb Raider games than the more recent Tomb Raider reboot games.

Have fun with it.

Have her pistol-fight a T-Rex again or something.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.

I've played all the uncharted games....

After playing RoTR...I never got the feeling once that I was playing an Uncharted game. It's focus is totally different.

Can't take people who are saying this seriously.

Have fun with it.

Have her pistol-fight a T-Rex again or something.

"I want new experiences in my sequels....So in the sequel, make her do the same thing she did in a previous game"

#neogaflogic

 

[Garlador]

"I want new experiences in my sequels....So in the sequel, make her do the same thing she did in a previous game"

#neogaflogic

Don't be dense. It all comes down to execution, but certain games and franchises come with history and preconceived expectations.

I want a Mario game to play like a Mario game. To take a familiar character with familiar gameplay and challenge me in new and creative ways that make the most of those established mechanics and designs.

Being "different" for the sake of being different is neither better nor worse.

You could theoretically make an M-rated GTA-style Mario game where he does drugs, shoots hookers, and reveals he's actually a crossdressing alien from the planet Zeist. It would be "different" but not necessarily better.

It's not impossible to make a Tomb Raider game that has the fun spirit of the originals transposed to the modern mechanics and designs we enjoy today. If anything, it would be a breath of fresh air over the grim-dark uber-serious trends that dominate much of gaming today.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Don't be dense. It all comes down to execution, but certain games and franchises come with history and preconceived expectations.

I want a Mario game to play like a Mario game. To take a familiar character with familiar gameplay and challenge me in new and creative ways that make the most of those established mechanics and designs.

Being "different" for the sake of being different is neither better nor worse.

You could theoretically make an M-rated GTA-style Mario game where he does drugs, shoots hookers, and reveals he's actually a crossdressing alien from the planet Zeist. It would be "different" but not necessarily better.

It's not impossible to make a Tomb Raider game that has the fun spirit of the originals transposed to the modern mechanics and designs we enjoy today. If anything, it would be a breath of fresh air over the grim-dark uber-serious trends that dominate much of gaming today.

RIght so, Just make her fight a T rex with pistols again or something....Because this was a well thought out thought....thus the "or something"

 

[Garlador]

RIght so, Just make her fight a T rex with pistols again or something....Because this was a well thought out thought....thus the "or something"

You took that way too seriously.

I didn't think I had to spell out that "fight a T-Rex or something" was just a lighthearted way of saying "having her do something cheesy and ridiculously fun".

Example: "have her kick-flip an alien overlord", "have her vault over a pit of fire-breathing spiders", "have her swan-dive off the end of a flailing sea serpent", "have her punch out a shark"...

(wait, she already did that one)

Basically, a sense of camp and levity to the franchise that began its life in the spirit of fun-filled adventures and expeditions.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

You took that way too seriously.

I didn't think I had to spell out that "fight a T-Rex or something" was just a lighthearted way of saying "having her do something cheesy and ridiculously fun".

Example: "have her kick-flip an alien overlord", "have her vault over a pit of fire-breathing spiders", "have her swan-dive off the end of a flailing sea serpent", "have her punch out a shark"...

you didn't have to spell out anything. I'm basically saying I thought your thoughts were terrible. Having her doing something cheesy won't necessarily equate to ridiculously fun and I thought it was a dumb idea that lacked merit.

If you implement the same t rex fight with pistols in that old game in today's game it would be terrible. Unless just backing up and shooting is "ridiculously fun."

In fact I'm sure if they implemented that, then people would make fun of it. Just my opinion of course. Secondly, theres a game coming out that's doing "Fighting Dinasaurs" on another level. So fighting a T rex with pistols is even more lame.

 

[bosseye]

The sort of tomb raider game I want will never get made now. I want a return to the slow paced atmospheric, careful tomb raider.

Current tomb raider has zero restraint, it's true ADD generation gaming, almost constant noise and shooting and Whoooooooaaaa crumbling ledge and yet another dismal rope arrow puzzle, and smashing heads in with axes and awful breathy acting.

I miss the silence of the tombs. I miss the trepidation that came with exploration, the tension of high platforming (St Francis folly), the tension of the unknown in a new area or a sudden animal attack. I miss the thought that you had to apply to traverse the levels. I miss the environments being the star.

It's so mindless these days.

 

[Garlador]

you didn't have to spell out anything. I'm basically saying I thought your thoughts were terrible. Having her doing something cheesy won't necessarily equate to ridiculously fun and I thought it was a dumb idea that lacked merit.

If you implement the same t rex fight with pistols in that old game in today's game it would be terrible. Unless just backing up and shooting is "ridiculously fun."

In fact I'm sure if they implemented that, then people would make fun of it. Just my opinion of course. Secondly, theres a game coming out that's doing "Fighting Dinasaurs" on another level. So fighting a T rex with pistols is even more lame.

Going to disagree strongly with this.

Fighting the T-Rex was one of the opening levels of the Tomb Raider franchise as a whole, and one of the single most memorable moments in the whole series (and probably for gaming in general). It's over-the-top, cheesy, scary, and was both intense and fun. It was, in a nutshell, a snapshot of the type of game Tomb Raider was aiming to be. And, again, this was twenty years ago. Summing up the encounter as "backing up and shooting" as being un-fun is like saying Resident Evil is just "shooting slow zombies and doing stupid puzzles". It's a discredit to what the games accomplished.

Besides, what has Tomb Raider done lately that's been as memorable as the T-rex fight? Most of the modern games are just "Lara falls down things" and gunning down faceless human goons over and over. And I still enjoy them, but they've become formulaic as setpiece-driven third-person shooters and the tombs began to take a serious backseat to the human-hunting.

The old games had an identity that was more memorable. I'd rather take a cheesy death scene where Lara touches Midas's Hand and turns into solid gold over just another gore death, because it's quirky and ridiculous.

So, yeah, I want to fight dragons and dinosaurs instead of faceless human mercenaries.

Yeah, I'd like to gracefully dual-wield pistols and fire them while plummeting to my supposed death.

Yes, I want to face off against ancient, god-like creatures that predate history and human awareness.

And I want to do it without taking the material so seriously, with a smirk and a confident glare in my eyes.

I refuse to believe that's "impossible" or "lame" or "terrible" or "outdated"...

Especially when Sony is making a killing doing that very thing with their own Uncharted franchise.

 

[Lime]

If anything, it would be cool if they remastered the PS1 Tomb Raider games like what has been done with the Crash Bandicoot games.

 

[Garlador]

If anything, it would be cool if they remastered the PS1 Tomb Raider games like what has been done with the Crash Bandicoot games.

They sort of already did it with Tomb Raider Anniversary.

That was several years back, though.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

An episodic game about exploring tombs. Oh and scrap almost everything about the main character and start again.

 

[Devilinthiscity]

Better written more likable characters. That's my only problem with Rise of the Tomb Raider and the first game. The characters, including Lara, are just so bland and boring. The gameplay and exploration is fun, but the characters and story make it hard for me to find a reason to keep on playing. I'm currently at the end of Rise of the Tomb Raider and have no motivation to go back and finish the game aside from getting the trophy for completing it.

 

[LegendX48]

More globe trotting! Not a fan of how these games have taken place in one isolated spot for their entirety. I want to go through at least 5 completely, 100% different unconnected areas and spend equal amounts of time in each.

Remove all RPG elements. This is supposed to be Tomb Raider, right? Get rid of them, they don't belong here and they add nothing and feel like exactly what they are: arbitrary checklist game design.

Remove the horror/survival elements. They don't belong. That and they're half assed anyway.

Remove the arbitrary checklist game design audio logs, nobody listens to them. Journals too if you want.

Make the platforming less automatic and make the game more focused on platforming.

More puzzles! Environmental puzzles please!

Dual pistols! Significantly less human V human combat.

Or, you know what? Fuck it, just give us a god damned Tomb Raider game, not watered down, derpy Uncharted!

 

[twobear]

I agree that they don't need to throw out everything the reboots brought to table. The combat, some metroidvania elements ect. not all is bad.

I still think the game would benefit a lot from having more puzzles and platforming though. If we keep the comparison to DOOM and XCOM, those did a much better job at keeping the spirit of their predecessors. The TR reboots emulate contemporary action games, rather than sucessfully "modernising" the old formula.

I completely agree, there's a lot of space to update Tomb Raider in a way that makes it more in line with the spirit of the original than what they have done. Bring back the claustrophobia and isolation (some of my favourite levels from the original games aren't tombs at all, but still evoke that same feeling; the undersea levels from TR2 and the London levels from TR3). Bring back more of a focus on traversal, and making that traversal fulfilling, instead of making it a way of getting from one Gears of War arena to another.'.

But please, don't bring back the tank controls, don't bring back the tedium of carefully maneuvering Tankra against every platform's edge, don't bring back that dodgy camera...these are all things that the series can afford to leave behind.

 

[SDCowboy]

I want far less combat, and longer tombs.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I'm playing through Rise right now, and I can't say that it feels like Uncharted too much really. Uncharted is mostly story-driven and a lot more linear than the new Tomb Raider entries. The new Tomb Raider has a much heavier emphasis on exploration and upgrading, and gives you numerous sandbox-y, interconnected areas to play in and explore. There's a story, but it's not full of cutscenes and walk-and-talk narrative design. I'm also enjoying this much more than Uncharted 4 because of these things.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep doing what they've been doing. If by it's too much like Uncharted someone means that it's a third person action/adventure where you shoot things, yeah, I guess. I dunno. I simply disagree.

The traversal mechanics and a lot of the combat mechanics are basically from Uncharted (even the hide in foliage mechanics from U4, the crouching when in combat, the cover mechanics, hell even the evasion and melee combat is very similar!), that's not to say that both games are identical, but in terms how TR plays now and how U4 plays, is very similar.

Yeah, TR has sandbox maps with lots of meanigless icons and messy and chaotically placed plataforming, very much following Ubisoft school of design. But that dosn't mean that Rise of the Tomb Raider dosn't play very similarly to U4. This is why people compare both games.

 

[Lime]

They sort of already did it with Tomb Raider Anniversary.


That was several years back, though.

Yeah, but with Anniversary they still updated the mechanics and platforming in the vein of Legend (and the later Underworld). Crash seems to be a mostly visual update with the same core platform design principles, at least in the videos we've seen.

And Anniversary also seemed to be a mainly PS2 game even though 360 and PS3 were already out back then.

 

[VanCityGamer]

It has been really interesting reading people's differing viewpoints in this thread. I just finished Rise of the Tomb Raider and...

LOVED it. Uncharted is one of my favorite series, but I have to say I enjoyed Rise of the Tomb Raider more than Uncharted 4. Please keep going down the same path with the next Tomb Raider!

I really hope whoever develops the next game does not listen to the people calling for the focus to be on puzzles and cutting out the action and set pieces. I can't think of anything that would kill my interest in the next game faster. I'm not a puzzle person, so some light optional puzzles is perfect. They could offer some tougher optional tombs I suppose, but please keep difficult puzzles off the main path. I understand where people are coming from, especially considering Tomb Raider's roots. But that isn't the type of game it is today. I think they would alienate a TON of people with a focus on puzzles and cutting out the action. That would be a huge mistake IMO.

Here is what I would like to see:
- Something a bit different with the story. Find a way to switch up the formula that Tomb Raider and Uncharted has followed.
- I definitely don't think the writing is as weak as some people are saying. But the script could be tighter.
- I think they overdid it a bit with the collectibles. Fewer of them, please. Please also allow the player to keep playing while they listen to the audio logs.
- Either remove the side quests or make them more fleshed out.
- I loved the snowy locale in Rise, but let's move somewhere warmer in the next game. Ideally, they could include a couple of more varied settings in the same game. Kind of like what they did with Syria in Rise, but a better balance between settings.
- The pacing was phenomenal in Rise. Do not shift the focus to puzzles. Rather, keep the blend of platforming & exploring, action, set pieces, and puzzles. Feel free to add in a few more elaborate and challenging optional tombs.
- Please do not strip so many of Lara's gadgets away at the start again. It would feel strange to do that a third time. Instead, find new equipment and weapons for Lara to work toward. How about dual wielding as well?
- I welcome the rumored shift toward some horror elements. That said, do not make it a horror game. I would just be up for more spooky moments and a haunting atmosphere at times.

Rise of the Tomb Raider is my favorite game from last year. So don't sway too much from the formula. Just make a few tweaks, which will help the new game feel fresh. The story will be crucial too.

 

[MattyG]

-A story that isn't instantly forgettable.
-Camilla Luddington's performance to not be for breathy. It always sounds like she's astounded or forcing her words out, even in normal conversation.
-More open hub areas. I enjoyed them way more than the Uncharted type, shoot tons of people sections.