GravityInsanity
Member
Less of this, basically:
Lol so true. At times I thought Lara was going to start flying.
Less of this, basically:
I'd really like to see platforming given at least equal attention to combat. I'm not really coming to these games to stealth/murder five hundred guys, I want to do the thing that it says on the front of the box. In Nu Tomb Raider and Uncharted the platforming is never anything more than downtime between the actual challenging gameplay. Give me a grip button, jumps that need a run-up, the rhythm elements and gymnastic routines from the Legend trilogy; all that good stuff.
Less of this, basically:
They'll never do it, but if they made the climbing system more engaging/challenging, that would be awesome.
There's a great game makers toolkit on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo
You were responding to someone calling out a "too uncharted" point, which is why I was looking for a specific connection to Uncharted...
I'd really like to see platforming given at least equal attention to combat. I'm not really coming to these games to stealth/murder five hundred guys, I want to do the thing that it says on the front of the box. In Nu Tomb Raider and Uncharted the platforming is never anything more than downtime between the actual challenging gameplay. Give me a grip button, jumps that need a run-up, the rhythm elements and gymnastic routines from the Legend trilogy; all that good stuff...
As was noted on the last page:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=22s
”[0:22]...The year is 1996. You're playing Tomb Raider on PlayStation, and you need to jump between two platforms. What do you do? Well, first you have to line up the jump, by walking to the edge... [1:47]...I think we also lost something in the transition to the ultra simple traversal controls we see in games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and Uncharted. The old system [in the classic Tomb Raider games] demanded expertise. You became a master of the controls, like how you learn to subconsciously flick trick in and out of every grind and manual in Tony Hawk's, and you had to act deliberately, and with intention, like – dare I say it – Dark Souls. And in Tomb Raider [1996], a leap across a giant chasm is almost as terrifying and rewarding as it would be in real life. Whereas that exact same jump in the decade-later remake, Tomb Raider Anniversary, is so bereft of challenge that you barely even register that it happened..."
And in the video:...Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming... However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=208s
”[3:28]...Thankfully, we can, and a number of smaller games show us that movement can still be as deep and involving as, like, murdering a dude. Perhaps the most obvious example is first-person parkour game, Mirror's Edge. This game is all about movement, and you have so much control over the way protagonist Faith moves through the world. She has acceleration on her run so she can jump farther after she has built up speed. She can tuck mid-jump to clear high fences, and roll when she hits the ground to avoid fall damage. Her large repertoire of moves give you more options when moving through a space. In this early section, you can... and..."
We don't know exactly what kind of arrangement they've got going on there, though. It's likely that they've been instructed to stick to Crystal's reboot design formula and aren't allowed to stray too far from it. I also wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Crystal are overseeing the project and are in charge of some of the big decision like the main plot points/character development, etc.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
Doom worked because it mixed what was successful about the old games with what's successful about FPS games that have come out since. It didn't renounce all of the 'improvements' to control schemes of the last 23 years and revert to no mouselook, it had a well designed and integrated weapon skillpoint/upgrade/perk system, it gave clues and hints about when secrets were nearby, etc.
When you see people say 'nothing but tombs' (the game has frequently visited non-tombs since the second installment), 'no human enemies' (the first game had human enemies and they became a staple in 2), 'every single action must be performed by the player' (this sounds more like you want QWOP than tomb raider), it seems like people aren't really asking for Tomb Raider to pull as Doom 2k16 as much as they want it to revert to some idealised version of the game precisely as it was 20 years ago.
That all said, I think that a DOOM Raider could work (call it an XCOM Raider too, if you like) and it could be great: I just don't think it would turn out like a lot of the people who really hate Tomb Raider 2013 would like.
How is a frantic, super twitchy game like Mirror's Edge in any way comparative to the slow, deliberate tank controls of classic Tomb Raider? In TR the timing was usually pretty generous, you just had to take your time, figure out what to do and then commit to it a bit in advance. ME is a non-stop barrage of tight jumps needing split-second reactions, turning TR into that sounds worse than the current incarnation.I whole-heartedly disagree. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming. They replaced three-dimensional, challenging platform-to-platform traversal with (mostly) two-dimensional, over-automated ledge-hopping. That's like telling Soulsborne fans that those game's combat is very similar to Assassin's Creed's combat . However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
I'm playing through Rise right now, and I can't say that it feels like Uncharted too much really. Uncharted is mostly story-driven and a lot more linear than the new Tomb Raider entries. The new Tomb Raider has a much heavier emphasis on exploration and upgrading, and gives you numerous sandbox-y, interconnected areas to play in and explore. There's a story, but it's not full of cutscenes and walk-and-talk narrative design. I'm also enjoying this much more than Uncharted 4 because of these things.
So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep doing what they've been doing. If by it's too much like Uncharted someone means that it's a third person action/adventure where you shoot things, yeah, I guess. I dunno. I simply disagree.
How is a frantic, super twitchy game like Mirror's Edge in any way comparative to the slow, deliberate tank controls of classic Tomb Raider? In TR the timing was usually pretty generous, you just had to take your time, figure out what to do and then commit to it a bit in advance. ME is a non-stop barrage of tight jumps needing split-second reactions, turning TR into that sounds worse than the current incarnation.
...the original Tomb Raider has enough great trap designs to fill this thread. Many of the game's platforming "puzzles" were essentially just traps that required enough foresight to navigate. People never believe me...but the only game that has ever come close to the amount of genuine fear the Soulsborne games can instill in me have been the original Tomb Raider games.
Mark Brown of Game Maker's Toolkit said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=22s
”[0:22]...The year is 1996. You're playing Tomb Raider on PlayStation, and you need to jump between two platforms. What do you do? Well, first you have to line up the jump, by walking to the edge... [1:47]...I think we also lost something in the transition to the ultra simple traversal controls we see in games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and Uncharted. The old system [in the classic Tomb Raider games] demanded expertise. You became a master of the controls, like how you learn to subconsciously flick trick in and out of every grind and manual in Tony Hawk's, and you had to act deliberately, and with intention, like – dare I say it – Dark Souls. And in Tomb Raider [1996], a leap across a giant chasm is almost as terrifying and rewarding as it would be in real life. Whereas that exact same jump in the decade-later remake, Tomb Raider Anniversary, is so bereft of challenge that you barely even register that it happened..."
So can anything be extrapolated from the success of the Soulsborne games? Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?
The more I read "true Tomb Raider fans" describe the game they think they want, the more I understand why the series' original iterations died horribly in both sales and critical reactions...
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this...
I don't see why, with some brain power firing, the original ingredients can't be updated in an appealing way. I don't think anyone is saying to include tank controls, the archaic-as-fuck combat system or any of that, but the core aspects that made the early Tomb Raiders so appealing are timeless fun if updated thoughtfully in my opinion. Making traversal borderline automatic... and turning it into a TPS slaughterfest really is the antithesis of the original game's 3D Prince Of Persia platformer meets cool Indiana Jones-esque exploration appeal. I'm not a game designer but I just can't fathom what could stand in the way of intelligently updating a game with focus on weight and challenging traversal, exploration, puzzling, archaeology and so on...
Mark Brown of Game Maker's Toolkit said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo&t=208s
"...Thankfully, we can, and a number of smaller games show us that movement can still be as deep and involving as, like, murdering a dude... She has acceleration on her run so she can jump farther after she has built up speed. She can tuck mid-jump to clear high fences, and roll when she hits the ground to avoid fall damage. Her large repertoire of moves give you more options when moving through a space. In this early section, you can... and..."
They were hardly queuing around the block for the current incarnation [Rise of the Tomb Raider]...
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-first-month-pc-sales-almos/1100-6435094/
...Research group Superdata today released its digital sales report for January 2016, and among other things, it was revealed that Square Enix's Rise of the Tomb Raider sold nearly three times more copies on PC in its first month than the Xbox One version over the same period of time in November....
https://galyonk.in/steam-sales-in-2016-def2a8ab15f2#.uwonmp717
Estimated Steam Sales based on SteamSpy
Dark Souls 3 (Released 4/11/16): 1,335,722 new owners / $63,630,874.48 in revenue
Rise of the Tomb Raider (Released 01/28/16): 1,303,957 new owners / $54,898,279.78 in revenue
Even if the estimate is not 100% spot on, Dark Souls 3 doing >60 million in revenue without DLC, just on Steam is insane.
I explained the reason for making this comparison (between Tomb Raider and Dark Souls) at great length in the previous post, since I'm really quite interested in hearing opinions on the following question:...But the original Tomb Raider (1996) sold 7 million copies (video), think about that in context to today. They can afford to get more old-school players back...
So can anything be extrapolated from the success of the Soulsborne games? Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?
Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?
I am not so sure. I think part of the Soulsborne appeal is that you fight against actual adversaries which makes the whole challenge/difficulty angle far easier to sell to people. Communicating that just the navigation of an obstacle course (=level) in and of itself is that challenging, that the level is the adversary, I think that's more difficult. That being said, I have no idea how big the market for these kinds of games is today, how many people there are out there who would buy and enjoy a classic TR-style game. At the end of the day, I feel like it really depends on marketing. You pump enough marketing dollars into a game and it's almost guaranteed to be a success (if it's half-decent, though sometimes even if it's not), you get stingy on the marketing and even a great game can end up being a flop.
first game's cutscenes had a cheeky, pulp quality to them. b-movie adventures quips and all. Lara was a lot closer to a cold, calculating, self-reliant... the intro to the first mission has her guide eaten by wolves and she doesn't even mourn for a second (a la Raiders of the Lost Ark's intro). they should go back to this style if they reboot it. she's doing superhuman things constantly w all the climbing, they could stand to bring some of that outlandishness back.
Here is how we were introduced to Lara for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHJuFhcRICE
To summarize: we are shown a magazine showing Lara on the cover saying that she caught bigfoot. She makes a witty remark rebuffing the advances of a man that hits on her. Natla offers her money and Lara tells her she only hunts for sport. Natla describes how dangerous and unexplored the adventure will be Lara smiles. Lara treks to Peru and opens the door to the caves. Her sherpa is attacked and she tries to save him but is unable to.
In this small cutscene we know all we really need to know about Lara. She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it.
Core went on to flesh her out a bit. She got the adventure bug after her plane crashed in the Himalayas where she survived for several days before she was rescued. Her rich parents didn't approve of her lifestyle and sent her on adventure with famed archeologist Werner Von Croy to get it out of her system and eventually disowned her. Here's Lara on her first real adventure as cocky as ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTS1XvqRrCA
When Crystal Dynamics took over, for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her...
Classic Lara Croft is still one of the best game characters... Her passions, resources, and abilities are ones that are fun to (pretend to) have. It's unfortunate that a lot of people can only see her as an object. I don't think it is specifically lacking vulnerability that makes her so great, it's that she is the kind of person who sets up a huge obstacle course to practice on. That's just awesome, and shows how much she enjoys what she does...
The way that Eric [Lindstrom] downplays the significance of the changes to Lara's bio is quite interesting. As I see it, the [obviously quite cringeworthy] ”...rarely left her father's side... father's full-time apprentice" bit in the new [Crystal Dynamics] bio actually occurs alongside [an even more thoroughgoing] simplification of Lara's mental life: this new Lara is compulsive, brutal, irresponsible, accomplished, we're told, but without any of the necessary indications that this compulsiveness emerges fundamentally from Lara's overwhelming enthusiasm for the hunt and for adventure, an enthusiasm which in turn emerges precisely from her admirable qualities, her greater perceptiveness, insight, understanding and so on. All of this comes across much better, from within the Core Design bio...
Simultaneous release on all platforms.
I actually like what Crystal Dynamics has been doing with the Tomb Raider games gameplay wise, personally I find controlling Lara and the combat enjoyable in them also the worlds in them are excellent so that could stay the same.
If there's one thing they should definitely fix is give the story a little more humor or lighten it up at times because it seems to take itself way to serious. Although if they did that they probably be considered copying the Uncharted games even more.
Make the puzzles more central to the story instead of making them side missions and I think they struck the right balance of scripted moments in Rise compared to the 2013's scripted moments.
Gimme some levity and a sense of fun! I don't think the gritty tone suits the series personally.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
Have fun with it.
Have her pistol-fight a T-Rex again or something.
"I want new experiences in my sequels....So in the sequel, make her do the same thing she did in a previous game"
#neogaflogic
Don't be dense. It all comes down to execution, but certain games and franchises come with history and preconceived expectations.
I want a Mario game to play like a Mario game. To take a familiar character with familiar gameplay and challenge me in new and creative ways that make the most of those established mechanics and designs.
Being "different" for the sake of being different is neither better nor worse.
You could theoretically make an M-rated GTA-style Mario game where he does drugs, shoots hookers, and reveals he's actually a crossdressing alien from the planet Zeist. It would be "different" but not necessarily better.
It's not impossible to make a Tomb Raider game that has the fun spirit of the originals transposed to the modern mechanics and designs we enjoy today. If anything, it would be a breath of fresh air over the grim-dark uber-serious trends that dominate much of gaming today.
RIght so, Just make her fight a T rex with pistols again or something....Because this was a well thought out thought....thus the "or something"
(wait, she already did that one)
You took that way too seriously.
I didn't think I had to spell out that "fight a T-Rex or something" was just a lighthearted way of saying "having her do something cheesy and ridiculously fun".
Example: "have her kick-flip an alien overlord", "have her vault over a pit of fire-breathing spiders", "have her swan-dive off the end of a flailing sea serpent", "have her punch out a shark"...
you didn't have to spell out anything. I'm basically saying I thought your thoughts were terrible. Having her doing something cheesy won't necessarily equate to ridiculously fun and I thought it was a dumb idea that lacked merit.
If you implement the same t rex fight with pistols in that old game in today's game it would be terrible. Unless just backing up and shooting is "ridiculously fun."
In fact I'm sure if they implemented that, then people would make fun of it. Just my opinion of course. Secondly, theres a game coming out that's doing "Fighting Dinasaurs" on another level. So fighting a T rex with pistols is even more lame.
If anything, it would be cool if they remastered the PS1 Tomb Raider games like what has been done with the Crash Bandicoot games.
I agree that they don't need to throw out everything the reboots brought to table. The combat, some metroidvania elements ect. not all is bad.
I still think the game would benefit a lot from having more puzzles and platforming though. If we keep the comparison to DOOM and XCOM, those did a much better job at keeping the spirit of their predecessors. The TR reboots emulate contemporary action games, rather than sucessfully "modernising" the old formula.
I'm playing through Rise right now, and I can't say that it feels like Uncharted too much really. Uncharted is mostly story-driven and a lot more linear than the new Tomb Raider entries. The new Tomb Raider has a much heavier emphasis on exploration and upgrading, and gives you numerous sandbox-y, interconnected areas to play in and explore. There's a story, but it's not full of cutscenes and walk-and-talk narrative design. I'm also enjoying this much more than Uncharted 4 because of these things.
So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep doing what they've been doing. If by it's too much like Uncharted someone means that it's a third person action/adventure where you shoot things, yeah, I guess. I dunno. I simply disagree.
They sort of already did it with Tomb Raider Anniversary.
That was several years back, though.