JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.
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Tomb Raider Reboot 3 - What do you want?
- Thread starter Lights and Waves
- Start date
Bloodporne
Member
All of this. Playing through TR2 (PSX) right now and still a huge fan of OG Tomb Raider.
Also, can Lara Croft just be a cool badass for the sake of it without having some fetishized victim backstory and daddy issues to 'overcome'? I don't know if this was still the case in Rise... since I didn't play it, but I've never before or since been actually offended by a game's repulsive handling of a character as I was in the first reboot.
EDIT: Let's also bring back the cool 'mystical' atmosphere of ancient civilizations the originals had going on.
PeterLegend
Member
Lara Croft the mass murderer
- A story not about her father/mother/brother/sister/cat, an original adventure with a different theme than "family past"
- Not a third origin story, bring back some of the iconic parts of her character - dual pistols, outfit, confidence, charm.
- Actually challenging tombs that don't just require pulling a few objects together and jumping to a highlighted ledge. Something that requires movement and timing precision.
- Tighter, more satisfying gunplay. Ideally a little less of it.
- Not a third origin story, bring back some of the iconic parts of her character - dual pistols, outfit, confidence, charm.
- Actually challenging tombs that don't just require pulling a few objects together and jumping to a highlighted ledge. Something that requires movement and timing precision.
- Tighter, more satisfying gunplay. Ideally a little less of it.
Bloodporne
Member
I don't see why, with some brain power firing, the original ingredients can't be updated in an appealing way.
I don't think anyone is saying to include tank controls, the archaic-as-fuck combat system or any of that, but the core aspects that made the early Tomb Raiders so appealing are timeless fun if updated thoughtfully in my opinion. Making traversal borderline automatic, stripping almost all exploration and turning it into a TPS slaughterfest really is the antithesis of the original game's 3D Prince Of Persia platformer meets cool Indiana Jones-esque exploration appeal.
I'm not a game designer but I just can't fathom what could stand in the way of intelligently updating a game with focus on weight and challenging traversal, exploration, puzzling, archaeology and so on. I mean I guess while typing that I answered my own question really...it would probably not sell to the degree I assume the gore-soaked C-grade revenge flick that is the reboot did.
Black Mantis
Member
More of the same gameplay-wise, a sunnier location visually.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
They were hardly queing around the block for the current incarnation... and yet, if you followed the market research, it should be what everybody wants - it's got a little bit of everything.
The reality is that customers don't always know what they want. If you ask them, they'll usually go for what they know - something safe and familiar - but experiences like those are rarely the ones that set the world on fire.
LordBaztion
Member
I want more platforming and exploration. Timing based platforming not the automatic uncharted one.
Combat less focused on covering and more in platforming and positioning.
A bit of supernatural.
Combat less focused on covering and more in platforming and positioning.
A bit of supernatural.
Incidentally didn't a majority of GAF users love tomb raider reboot originally?
Loads of people were gushing over how "cute" the new Lara was back then too.
I'm glad that's not the case anymore, I just assumed GAF in general liked the whole cinematic gaming shit that was so popular in the west.
Loads of people were gushing over how "cute" the new Lara was back then too.
I'm glad that's not the case anymore, I just assumed GAF in general liked the whole cinematic gaming shit that was so popular in the west.
Spikematic
Member
A confident and mature Lara who is both posh and bad ass at the same time. She should be brave, self assured and above all, competent. And a dry, British humor with lots of fun quips would be cool too.
Gameplay focused on platforming that isn't automatic, exploring tombs and finding treasures across the globe. There can be some combat but as long as it doesn't delve into the mass murderer category. She should definitely have her trademark twin pistols though.
There's absolutely no reason to shoehorn a supporting cast or even a villain. Lara should be a treasure hunter and explorer first and foremost, so the plot doesn't need to be too complex. Just let there be an adventurous vibe to it.
So basically a game about a smart and competent treasure hunter travelling around the globe to exotic locales to find lost treasures.
Gameplay focused on platforming that isn't automatic, exploring tombs and finding treasures across the globe. There can be some combat but as long as it doesn't delve into the mass murderer category. She should definitely have her trademark twin pistols though.
There's absolutely no reason to shoehorn a supporting cast or even a villain. Lara should be a treasure hunter and explorer first and foremost, so the plot doesn't need to be too complex. Just let there be an adventurous vibe to it.
So basically a game about a smart and competent treasure hunter travelling around the globe to exotic locales to find lost treasures.
That1BlackGuy
Member
I want a sequel to The Guardian of Light and Temple of Osiris to be honest, those top down Lara Croft games are hella slept on and are a blast to play (especially co-op).
Mainly focused on exploring big tombs.
Nameless
Member
Yeah I finished Rise of Tomb Raider a few days ago too. They made a better Uncharted game with far worse story and characters. The puzzles lacked variety and became a snooze by the end, and I wasn't amped about the full shift towards combat after the rest of the game spread it out better than the last game if not well. Enjoyed it overall, though.
My dream is still a legit, exploration focused TR using this engine that evokes those feelings of solitude and claustrophobia like the originals. I want Lara's main foe to be the environments: intricate webs of traps & puzzles, challenging platforming, some wildlife, with destinations that aren't always readily apparent much less glowing yellow. If she encounters other people it should feel like a big deal.
My dream is still a legit, exploration focused TR using this engine that evokes those feelings of solitude and claustrophobia like the originals. I want Lara's main foe to be the environments: intricate webs of traps & puzzles, challenging platforming, some wildlife, with destinations that aren't always readily apparent much less glowing yellow. If she encounters other people it should feel like a big deal.
CosmicRomancer
Member
I agree.
Wish they would use the original games as a template. I miss the exploring, the puzzles, challenging traversal, unforgiving traps, fearsome enemies and item collecting. They were difficult games but I liked that -- it added to the adventure.
Also, I think the music from those games really goes unappreciated and plays a big part. Tomb Raider III and IV in particular have really good soundtracks. They're quite dark but that reflects the places you're exploring and emphasises the sincerity of the adventure and the solitariness of Lara. It really brings out the character of the level/environment whether it intends to convey a sense of horror, mystique or confinement, it does it really well. I also love the music that plays in certain moments like when you discover a location/item of interest (my favourite), encounter an enemy or when you need to escape -- it resonates with your emotions well. Plus, the classical instruments adds to the English charm
Regarding Lara, I'd really like her to retain the qualities she had in the originals. She was independent, intelligent, wise, strong, calm and courageous. Her being independent is something I really liked about her. She didn't need any help, she was good enough to venture on her own despite any hardships. Also having friends along with her would have added too much obnoxious dialogue which would have ruined the mood. I've always been a solitary person too so I like to relate with her that way.
I miss her super stylish sunglasses too...
Relaxed Muscle
Member
How are very expensive to make? Tomb Raider games took place in intrincate locations, but is not like they were hugely detailed open world games.
Actually Core Design churn out several TR in the span of a few years.
And the original TR2 sold 7 million copies. I'm sure there's public for those kind of games.
Bloodporne
Member
I agree.
Wish they would use the original games as a template. I miss the exploring, the puzzles, challenging traversal, unforgiving traps, fearsome enemies and item collecting. They were difficult games but I liked that -- it added to the adventure.
Also, I think the music from those games really goes unappreciated and plays a big part. Tomb Raider III and IV in particular have really good soundtracks. They're quite dark but that reflects the places you're exploring and emphasises the sincerity of the adventure and the solitariness of Lara. It really brings out the character of the level/environment whether it intends to convey a sense of horror, mystique or confinement, it does it really well. I also love the music that plays in certain moments like when you discover a location/item of interest (my favourite), encounter an enemy or when you need to escape -- it resonates with your emotions well. Plus, the classical instruments adds to the English charm
Regarding Lara, I'd really like her to retain the qualities she had in the originals. She was independent, intelligent, wise, strong, calm and courageous. Her being independent is something I really liked about her. She didn't need any help, she was good enough to venture on her own despite any hardships. Also having friends along with her would have added too much obnoxious dialogue which would have ruined the mood. I've always been a solitary person too so I like to relate with her that way.
I miss her super stylish sunglasses too...
Revelations was and is an f'ing fantastic game. I've replayed it twice after getting the classic PSN download for my PS3 some years back and it holds up beautifully I think. Will actually play it upscaled etc. on my emulator again soon.
I mainly wanted to quote this because I agree how great and underrated the soundtracks are in general but Revelations adds a quite eerie vibe that I'm totally into. Love the ambient sound design.
The first game was almost a torture porn simulator at times. Some of the deaths were incredibly gruesome, Lara's and her targets.
That waterfall slide into wooden spikes...
That shotgun finisher...
And I've seen some shit.
I just want some good characters, I'd settle for even just 1 great one. It's a big reason I find the Uncharted games far more enjoyable, Drake and co are all great and more than make up for the kinda forgettable stories they are in.
Wouldn't mind them cutting a lot of the fat either, give me a globe trotting adventure, with some great levels over some crappy open area, I'll have to backtrack through.
Wouldn't mind them cutting a lot of the fat either, give me a globe trotting adventure, with some great levels over some crappy open area, I'll have to backtrack through.
I know everyone's a game designer on the internet and it has to be annyoing for people actually having to make games but here are some random thoughts.
Overall themes should be exploration, archeology and discovery not death, struggle and survival
Environmental puzzles, ancient mechanisms, traps, things to climb, you know, Tomb Raider stuff, should be at the core of your game.
Traversal and movement should be less automated and an actual challenge aside from "move away from this crumbling ledge within two seconds"
Don't hide the best parts of your game behind optional areas, it's embarrassing. Like, what are you afraid of, people falling asleep if they don't have something to shoot in the face every two minutes?
Make collectibles meaningful. Tomb Raider is one of few series in which collectibles actually make some kind of sense within the game world. Give me something good at the end of a challenging Tomb/Puzzle and the occasional treasure here and there, don't turn the entire thing into a giant collectathon.
Overall themes should be exploration, archeology and discovery not death, struggle and survival
Environmental puzzles, ancient mechanisms, traps, things to climb, you know, Tomb Raider stuff, should be at the core of your game.
Traversal and movement should be less automated and an actual challenge aside from "move away from this crumbling ledge within two seconds"
Don't hide the best parts of your game behind optional areas, it's embarrassing. Like, what are you afraid of, people falling asleep if they don't have something to shoot in the face every two minutes?
Make collectibles meaningful. Tomb Raider is one of few series in which collectibles actually make some kind of sense within the game world. Give me something good at the end of a challenging Tomb/Puzzle and the occasional treasure here and there, don't turn the entire thing into a giant collectathon.
We thought we'd never get another Hitman...yet Hitman 2016 came out, chucking out the modernization of Hitman: Absolution and channeled the spirit of the original game...and it was successful.
DOOM came out in 2016, harkening to the days of old. In an era where FPS have regenerating health, here is a game that embraces the fast-paced action and simplicity of an older era...and was successful for it.
CosmicRomancer
Member
Yeah it really is a good game. I cherish it a lot as I received it as a Christmas gift when I was young and remember being super excited about it. Was not disappointed. I still have the PS1 disk and play it from time to time on my PS2.
Compared to the globe-trotting adventures from 1,2 and 3, Revelations was a welcome and good transition, focusing on one area this time -- Egypt. It had a lot of inspiration to work from which showed and didn't feel restricted or repetitive at all. The added rope mechanic was really fun too. I remember it came out in 1999 round the time when the film The Mummy came out too, so there was a lot of excitement round the Egyptian theme.
Yeah you're right, it really did have an eerie vibe which I love. Along with the 3rd game they both had great sound design like you say.
Doom worked because it mixed what was successful about the old games with what's successful about FPS games that have come out since. It didn't renounce all of the 'improvements' to control schemes of the last 23 years and revert to no mouselook, it had a well designed and integrated weapon skillpoint/upgrade/perk system, it gave clues and hints about when secrets were nearby, etc.
When you see people say 'nothing but tombs' (the game has frequently visited non-tombs since the second installment), 'no human enemies' (the first game had human enemies and they became a staple in 2), 'every single action must be performed by the player' (this sounds more like you want QWOP than tomb raider), it seems like people aren't really asking for Tomb Raider to pull as Doom 2k16 as much as they want it to revert to some idealised version of the game precisely as it was 20 years ago.
That all said, I think that a DOOM Raider could work (call it an XCOM Raider too, if you like) and it could be great: I just don't think it would turn out like a lot of the people who really hate Tomb Raider 2013 would like.
Exactly. It was really interesting how making the game "fun" was a big focus on the new Doom and it had me thinking, why would a game be developed any other way? If the game isn't fun, it doesn't matter how good the graphics are or how good the story is, the game is not going to be as good as it could be.
The Tomb Raider remake just feels and looks so boring. I liked the first remake, but it wasn't a Tomb Raider game. I want a real Tomb Raider game.
Try 10 years ago; Tomb Raider Anniversary was a good revision of the formula with more modern control sensibilities.
Yep, I hate it too. I dont know why dev need to implement these unecessary horror elements into their game.
Bloodporne
Member
No, I think you're just taking it too literally. Not a single human enemy isn't what most people in here are talking about and when people say nothing but tombs they're most likely referring to the gameplay elements that would involve.
Plenty of posters, including me, said they'd like the core elements of the originals seen updated and built on, that's all. Nobody wants the game precisely as it was 20 years.
I simply think the originals had tons of strengths that could be elaborated and built on in a meaningful way to provide a unique game in today's landscape, but out of all their routes available, I'm sure that's the most difficult and not-best-selling-one. In short, I get why they're not doing it I guess, but the thread asked 'what do you want', so that's what many people posting in here want apparently.
IcyRhythms
Member
I tried to play the original TR again a year or two ago after experiencing the 2013 reboot for a second or third time. I just couldn't do it. I really couldn't see them going back to a lot of that with modern visuals. Animations and such would of course improve, but I think the new games are much more fun.
I want Lara to ditch the bow, ditch the "survival" crafting aspect (seriously are we always going to keep hunting for deer pelts from TR'09 from now on?), and ditch the Uncharted aspect. And my goodness, "Tomb are back"? Is this what constitute a tomb now? Just one or two puzzles? What happened to having a complete level full of them?
I'd say increase the acrobatics (that was one of the biggest highlights of the Legend series for me: the freedom of movement that Lara had). Also Trinity after Scion and inadvertently releasing Natla from her prison.
Barry Burton
Member
Make it about tomb raiding again.
Now, I know they aren't going to go back to the old-style, even if I wish that they would.
But here's what I think that they can do, however, to make a proper Tomb Raider game within their current framework. And that's basically to go all of the way towards making "Zelda Raider".
The overall world design in the rebooted Tomb Raider games is very much The Legend of Zelda-y. It's not a true open-world, but rather large explorable areas that interconnect through specific paths, some which require certain abilities/items to open.
Then there are the optional tombs, which are also largely gated by your abilities/items. Here's what I would recommend: make these tombs the "dungeons" of the Tomb Raider games, and have them be no longer optional. Rather than these being a largely skippable 5-10% of the game as currently stands, tomb raiding would now become a chief component of the overall gameplay, along with everything else that's already there.
In short, greatly expand the tomb raiding aspect of their Tomb Raider game, and leave everything else in place. I still really liked RotTR, but it doesn't scratch the same itch that the original trilogy did for me; there is certainly an avenue there for these games to do both.
Now, I know they aren't going to go back to the old-style, even if I wish that they would.
But here's what I think that they can do, however, to make a proper Tomb Raider game within their current framework. And that's basically to go all of the way towards making "Zelda Raider".
The overall world design in the rebooted Tomb Raider games is very much The Legend of Zelda-y. It's not a true open-world, but rather large explorable areas that interconnect through specific paths, some which require certain abilities/items to open.
Then there are the optional tombs, which are also largely gated by your abilities/items. Here's what I would recommend: make these tombs the "dungeons" of the Tomb Raider games, and have them be no longer optional. Rather than these being a largely skippable 5-10% of the game as currently stands, tomb raiding would now become a chief component of the overall gameplay, along with everything else that's already there.
In short, greatly expand the tomb raiding aspect of their Tomb Raider game, and leave everything else in place. I still really liked RotTR, but it doesn't scratch the same itch that the original trilogy did for me; there is certainly an avenue there for these games to do both.
Laurel_McFang
Member
At the end of ROTR so went back to the various camps to metroid the various challenge tombs could not access previously. Loving this game. Just has good gameplay.
Wants for TR3:
1. Deeper skill tree, but one that encourages investing in a path. 5 different arrow types? Sure, but how about closing off paths. In other words keep the variety of play mechanics in combat, but require specialization and maybe allow another path on new game plus. Simplify while retaining the possibility of depth.
2. Further simplify by only allowing one or two weapons and a few set gadgets. You really shouldn't be able to carry around 6 machine guns, 5 pistols, 6 bows, and 3 shotguns. Let us stash them and decide on say a rifle and shotgun playthrough with deeper mechanics in the individual weapons. Lets get flaming shotgun rounds that can burn down cloth or guns with rope projectile attachments.
3. Hunting should be more dynamic. TR does a good job of making its hub worlds dynamic and engaging, but hunting is a tad stale. Have predators that stalk me across tree tops etc.
4. Increase the length of the challenge tombs later on. Hardcore Tomb Raiders remember the long snd laboroius climbing puzzles of old. Bring them back for us.
5. Get a decent storyline. TR is terribly forgettable and simply eschews character building in fsvor of more action sequences.
6. Multiplayer moutian climbing. Seriously try it. Prodcedurslly create a mountain and let players rsce to the top.
Wants for TR3:
1. Deeper skill tree, but one that encourages investing in a path. 5 different arrow types? Sure, but how about closing off paths. In other words keep the variety of play mechanics in combat, but require specialization and maybe allow another path on new game plus. Simplify while retaining the possibility of depth.
2. Further simplify by only allowing one or two weapons and a few set gadgets. You really shouldn't be able to carry around 6 machine guns, 5 pistols, 6 bows, and 3 shotguns. Let us stash them and decide on say a rifle and shotgun playthrough with deeper mechanics in the individual weapons. Lets get flaming shotgun rounds that can burn down cloth or guns with rope projectile attachments.
3. Hunting should be more dynamic. TR does a good job of making its hub worlds dynamic and engaging, but hunting is a tad stale. Have predators that stalk me across tree tops etc.
4. Increase the length of the challenge tombs later on. Hardcore Tomb Raiders remember the long snd laboroius climbing puzzles of old. Bring them back for us.
5. Get a decent storyline. TR is terribly forgettable and simply eschews character building in fsvor of more action sequences.
6. Multiplayer moutian climbing. Seriously try it. Prodcedurslly create a mountain and let players rsce to the top.
Schopenhauerian
Member
I noticed that both the Dark Souls and Classic Tomb Raider games have been mentioned multiple times, in the 'Best Traps in Gaming' thread: one / two / three / four
So can anything be extrapolated from the success of the Soulsborne games?
Do you think a Tomb Raider that is actually challenging, in a way that is similar to the older TR games, could find commercial and/or critical success on the level of Soulsborne, if it were done really well?
Some parallels with the Soulsborne games, from an earlier thread (Souls fans, does the difficulty misconception frustrate you?):
Coming back to Tomb Raider:
There are also various kinds of "lifelines" that can be worked into games:
I whole-heartedly disagree. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming. They replaced three-dimensional, challenging platform-to-platform traversal with (mostly) two-dimensional, over-automated ledge-hopping. That's like telling Soulsborne fans that those game's combat is very similar to Assassin's Creed's combat
. However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far.I whole-heartedly disagree. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming. They replaced three-dimensional, challenging platform-to-platform traversal with (mostly) two-dimensional, over-automated ledge-hopping. That's like telling Soulsborne fans that those game's combat is very similar to Assassin's Creed's combat
Well, I whole-heartedly want Tomb Raider to be like Tomb Raider Anniversary than it's ended up being like in Tomb Raider 2013 and, I presume, Rise of the Tomb Raider (haven't played the latter). A first-person TR like Mirror's Edge would be interesting, and also, likely better than TR2013 so I agree with that at least.
Fair enough. Personally, I care about as little for playing a game with TRA's gameplay as I do for playing one with the reboot's (though at least TRA had decent puzzles).
You could take most of what Mirror's Edge does and translate it to third-person. Would probably have to go with a fixed camera like Core's TR games had which some people may consider outdated but I don't
.
EventHorizon
Member
First off, Tomb Raider needs to settle down and stop trying to change up every release. I liked the first reboot but didn't get RotTR because for the most part I don't know what kind of game it is. Is it a bunch of tombs like the old games or is it more action packed like the 2013 reboot. I've heard people complaining about both which is why I have no idea what the game is really like.
Second, for my preference I'd like more like the first rebooted game. I liked the emphasis on the action although for the sake of the tone the action should be paired back somewhat and replaced with more survival elements. As an added bonus I'd love for Lara to go back to her iconic look with twin pistols and the shorts. As for puzzles, they are nice to break up the action a bit, but I'd stick with 2013's reboot amount of them. A AAA 3D puzzle game is too niche for its budget.
Second, for my preference I'd like more like the first rebooted game. I liked the emphasis on the action although for the sake of the tone the action should be paired back somewhat and replaced with more survival elements. As an added bonus I'd love for Lara to go back to her iconic look with twin pistols and the shorts. As for puzzles, they are nice to break up the action a bit, but I'd stick with 2013's reboot amount of them. A AAA 3D puzzle game is too niche for its budget.
Shang
Member
They'll never do it, but if they made the climbing system more engaging/challenging, that would be awesome.
There's a great game makers toolkit on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo
There's a great game makers toolkit on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
Just launch on all the systems at the same time
I started playing Last Revelation recently for the first time myself and am absolutely loving it so far. Thinking of doing a LttP thread when I finish it, but I have almost nothing but positive things to say about it so far.
That said I did try TR3 also on PS1 right before and that didn't hold up nearly as well(the only other Core designed game I never tried way back).
Schopenhauerian
Member
All good stuff to consider! Some previous threads, where it looks like folks have ended up discussing similar things:
- http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1124298
- http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1062818
- http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=975125&page=18
We don't know exactly what kind of arrangement they've got going on there, though. It's likely that they've been instructed to stick to Crystal's reboot design formula and aren't allowed to stray too far from it. I also wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Crystal are overseeing the project and are in charge of some of the big decision like the main plot points/character development, etc.
AgentOtaku
Member
This
matrix-cat
Member
I'd really like to see platforming given at least equal attention to combat. I'm not really coming to these games to stealth/murder five hundred guys, I want to do the thing that it says on the front of the box. In Nu Tomb Raider and Uncharted the platforming is never anything more than downtime between the actual challenging gameplay. Give me a grip button, jumps that need a run-up, the rhythm elements and gymnastic routines from the Legend trilogy; all that good stuff.
Less of this, basically:
Less of this, basically:
Dash_Riprock
Member
Annnnd we're done.