JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
No guns. Just the bow and arrow. And no kills. Make it about tombs and environments not about murder.
Puzzles
Tombs
Isolation
Confident, non-newb Lara
Cut 90% of the combat and NPCs.
Make the platforming interesting and challenging.
Give us large, intricate levels with real puzzle solving and navigation.
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.
Tomb Raider Reboot 3 - What do you want?
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
i'd rather have an original Tomb Raider, with much more exploring and solving puzzles.
Anywho, they should take her to Egypt.
I just loved Tomb Raider IV
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.
I agree.
Wish they would use the original games as a template. I miss the exploring, the puzzles, challenging traversal, unforgiving traps, fearsome enemies and item collecting. They were difficult games but I liked that -- it added to the adventure.
Also, I think the music from those games really goes unappreciated and plays a big part. Tomb Raider III and IV in particular have really good soundtracks. They're quite dark but that reflects the places you're exploring and emphasises the sincerity of the adventure and the solitariness of Lara. It really brings out the character of the level/environment whether it intends to convey a sense of horror, mystique or confinement, it does it really well. I also love the music that plays in certain moments like when you discover a location/item of interest (my favourite), encounter an enemy or when you need to escape -- it resonates with your emotions well. Plus, the classical instruments adds to the English charm
Regarding Lara, I'd really like her to retain the qualities she had in the originals. She was independent, intelligent, wise, strong, calm and courageous. Her being independent is something I really liked about her. She didn't need any help, she was good enough to venture on her own despite any hardships. Also having friends along with her would have added too much obnoxious dialogue which would have ruined the mood. I've always been a solitary person too so I like to relate with her that way.
I miss her super stylish sunglasses too...
Well this is certainly new. Do you think Uncharted is violent?
We thought we'd never get another Hitman...yet Hitman 2016 came out, chucking out the modernization of Hitman: Absolution and channeled the spirit of the original game...and it was successful.Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this.
Revelations was and is an f'ing fantastic game. I've replayed it twice after getting the classic PSN download for my PS3 some years back and it holds up beautifully I think. Will actually play it upscaled etc. on my emulator again soon.
I mainly wanted to quote this because I agree how great and underrated the soundtracks are in general but Revelations adds a quite eerie vibe that I'm totally into. Love the ambient sound design.
We thought we'd never get another Hitman...yet Hitman 2016 came out, chucking out the modernization of Hitman: Absolution and channeled the spirit of the original game...and it was successful.
DOOM came out in 2016, harkening to the days of old. In an era where FPS have regenerating health, here is a game that embraces the fast-paced action and simplicity of an older era...and was successful for it.
Actually when I think about it the attitude towards making the new Doom (based on the Noclip documentary) does capture the sort of style I want from Tomb Raider "why is this place so big and full of convoluted death traps and Dinosaurs? Who cares? You're here to explore places full of dangers and interesting shit so let's go"
Doom worked because it mixed what was successful about the old games with what's successful about FPS games that have come out since. It didn't renounce all of the 'improvements' to control schemes of the last 23 years and revert to no mouselook, it had a well designed and integrated weapon skillpoint/upgrade/perk system, it gave clues and hints about when secrets were nearby, etc.
When you see people say 'nothing but tombs' (the game has frequently visited non-tombs since the second installment), 'no human enemies' (the first game had human enemies and they became a staple in 2), 'every single action must be performed by the player' (this sounds more like you want QWOP than tomb raider), it seems like people aren't really asking for Tomb Raider to pull as Doom 2k16 as much as they want it to revert to some idealised version of the game precisely as it was 20 years ago.
That all said, I think that a DOOM Raider could work (call it an XCOM Raider too, if you like) and it could be great: I just don't think it would turn out like a lot of the people who really hate Tomb Raider 2013 would like.
Wow sounds like the exact opposite of what they should do. I just recently finished the first one and the semi-horror tone and brutality felt really out of place.
When you see people say 'nothing but tombs' (the game has frequently visited non-tombs since the second installment), 'no human enemies' (the first game had human enemies and they became a staple in 2), 'every single action must be performed by the player' (this sounds more like you want QWOP than tomb raider), it seems like people aren't really asking for Tomb Raider to pull as Doom 2k16 as much as they want it to revert to some idealised version of the game precisely as it was 20 years ago.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.
I don't see why, with some brain power firing, the original ingredients can't be updated in an appealing way... the core aspects that made the early Tomb Raiders so appealing are timeless fun if updated thoughtfully in my opinion... with focus on weight and challenging traversal, exploration, puzzling, archaeology and so on...
The rumours of new devs interest me... I have hope they have a better grasp of modernising the old design rather than just throwing it away...
The more I read "true Tomb Raider fans" describe the game they think they want, the more I understand why the series' original iterations died horribly in both sales and critical reactions...
Games like the original TR games are dead. Be realistic. Very expensive to make, small amount of people that actually want to buy this...
...But the original Tomb Raider (1996) sold 7 million copies (video), think about that in context to today. They can afford to get more old-school players back...
...I miss the exploring, the puzzles, challenging traversal, unforgiving traps, fearsome enemies and item collecting. They were difficult games but I liked that -- it added to the adventure... They're quite dark but that reflects the places you're exploring and emphasises the sincerity of the adventure and the solitariness of Lara. It really brings out the character of the level/environment whether it intends to convey a sense of horror, mystique or confinement...
...the original Tomb Raider has enough great trap designs to fill this thread. Many of the game's platforming "puzzles" were essentially just traps that required enough foresight to navigate. People never believe me...but the only game that has ever come close to the amount of genuine fear the Soulsborne games can instill in me have been the original Tomb Raider games.
...the point is that their difficulty is hard compared to the AAA average. I'm more frustrated by the fact that, in general, most modern gamers flee anything that is remotely challenging, of which Souls may be the most visible, high-profile example, but far from the only one...
...The games are hard... there's a difficulty curve that is present that most mainstream games don't have (at least on their "normal" difficulties)... There's no map, no objectives, no auto saves, some bosses are one or 2 hit kills. You could argue this is simply a reversion from modern day game mechanics, and that might be so...
"They shouldn't make games like this" has been around longer and is a more widespread sentiment... The sentiment is institutional even, all the way back to Sony's decision not to publish it in the West, and From's recounting of necessary secrecy in regards to the game's difficulty level while developing it...
...So when you have to look for things yourself and think, it's viewed as hard. People are not comfortable anymore with this kind of approach. Luckily there are plenty that do get that appeal...
A game doesn't sell 2 million copies because only mascohists enjoy it. Have you wondered perhaps that that perpsective is off rather than those of the "defenders" and "vociferous fans"?
The souls series is tough. Sometimes relentlessly so but it has a solid core of mechanics which are taught to you through constant failure. This is a niche series that has peeked into the mainstream, and they absolutely aren't for everyone...
...Dark Souls games are the best-selling Japanese games on Steam, by far. They sold millions of copies. They aren't even that niche anymore...
Not at all, they are very hard games that require some serious attention from the player. Most people just don't play games to, seemingly, be punished, they just want to have casual fun (nothing wrong with that btw)... I love the games myself, but no matter how many copies they sell, it's still a niche series that was just in the right place at the right time...
...Sorry, autosaves are crutches for what they're going for, memorize the journey, mazes are more interesting than straight lines... I get it! I was just dealing with trying to reach Seath. But I and millions of others enjoy what that entails and find the loop fascinating in the hands of From...
...They are challenging enough to evoke a sense of accomplishment when overcoming certain obstacles...
I play all other games on the hardest difficulty settings and rarely if ever struggle in SP. The souls games are my favorite games. I think they are very hard. Hardest SP games I've played. Can't beat Bloodborne DLC for example...
...These games don't need lightning fast reflexes or being able to input complex combos in a short amount of time. The real hard part is the learning curve, it's realising that if you observe the environment you can find most traps and abushes, that combat is more about timing than combos... But in an age of constant checkpoints, waypoints and exploration which comes down to following the GPS on the minimap and giant red glowing weak points, the souls games are definitely hard for people not used to them...
For me, it's not so much that the games are too hard, but rather that they punish recklessness and lack of observation...
I do think that the Souls series are more difficult and challenging than most mainstream games because most games do not require the level of patience, awareness, and understanding of the gameplay mechanics that the Souls games expect...
They were hardly queing around the block for the current incarnation [Rise of the Tomb Raider]... The reality is that customers don't always know what they want. If you ask them, they'll usually go for what they know - something safe and familiar - but experiences like those are rarely the ones that set the world on fire...
...But the original Tomb Raider (1996) sold 7 million copies (video), think about that in context to today. They can afford to get more old-school players back...
...My dream is still a legit, exploration focused TR using this engine that evokes those feelings of solitude and claustrophobia like the originals. I want Lara's main foe to be the environments: intricate webs of traps & puzzles, challenging platforming... with destinations that aren't always readily apparent...
...More tombs, much deeper puzzles, more actual intricacy to exploration and movement...
The action adventure model they're clinging to is no longer cutting it (even ND seemed to know that with U4). Ultimately, you want a greater sense of adventure...
- Dark Souls - intricate, interconnected level design that opens gradually to the player, rewarding exploration and driving a sense of adventure.
- The Legend of Zelda (most) - Challenging, well-paced puzzle solving that gives a player reason to ponder the beautifully designed environments rather than sprinting between cover and popping headshots.
- The Last Guardian - for all of it's many faults, TLG's world hums with a sense of mystery and purpose that draws you deeper into it's world. The narrative and design are both minimalistic, but what is there is meaningful and intriguing (this works hand in hand with the last point as well - I took a much deeper appreciation of TLG's environments because they were often integral to the puzzle solving and most solutions were never overly obvious).
- A good platformer - I don't play enough platformers, but 'press X to keep climbing' and 'mash square to not fall to your impending death' isn't a platforming challenge. I leave it up to others to offer recommendations, but I remember in TR1 + 2 platforming sections necessitated a lot more planning to execute than simple contextual prompts...
...The player needs to be in control of every action and the game needs to be about the player exploring and navigating their way though the hazards of the level design. Players have to line up their jumps. They have to think about their jumps. Jumps will be consistent in length and distance every single time and grabbing a ledge needs to be a manual input from the player. The platforming needs to be well designed and offer thought and challenge...
...[Souls/Borne games] are built to be hard, mechanically and thematically, offering a player lifelines if they can find them of their own accord which often requires deaths to achieve...
[Prince of Persia 2008] was a bit weird with the "saving" mechanism. But I also thought that was interesting how people said it made the game "too easy". I wish I could find it, but it was a study at the time between Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge on perceived difficulty.
Prince of Persia - you miss your jump, you fall, it triggers a canned cutscene that lasts a few seconds of Elika reaching out and saving you, and then placing you at the last platform before you attempted the series of jumps.
Mirror's Edge - you miss your jump, you fall, you die, it spends a few seconds loading your last checkpoint, placing you at the last platform before you attempted the jump.
Structurally, they were identical and even the time penalty was almost the same. But because one had a clear "failure" state, and the other just kept going and kept you in the action, one was perceived at times as being rather hard and at times frustrating, while the other was heavily criticized for being too easy, despite the fact the superficial penalties were nearly identical.
It was an interesting look at how we perceive difficulty in games, and how execution can alter the same penalty as either a positive or negative thing for players.
Try 10 years ago; Tomb Raider Anniversary was a good revision of the formula with more modern control sensibilities.
I whole-heartedly disagree. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming. They replaced three-dimensional, challenging platform-to-platform traversal with (mostly) two-dimensional, over-automated ledge-hopping. That's like telling Soulsborne fans that those game's combat is very similar to Assassin's Creed's combat . However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far.
Well, I whole-heartedly want Tomb Raider to be like Tomb Raider Anniversary than it's ended up being like in Tomb Raider 2013 and, I presume, Rise of the Tomb Raider (haven't played the latter). A first-person TR like Mirror's Edge would be interesting, and also, likely better than TR2013 so I agree with that at least.
Revelations was and is an f'ing fantastic game. I've replayed it twice after getting the classic PSN download for my PS3 some years back and it holds up beautifully I think. Will actually play it upscaled etc. on my emulator again soon.
I mainly wanted to quote this because I agree how great and underrated the soundtracks are in general but Revelations adds a quite eerie vibe that I'm totally into. Love the ambient sound design.
...Legend, Anniversary and Underworld were far too different in terms of controls and level design, especially regarding the platforming... However, there is a modern game that has succeeded in modernising classic Tomb Raider's platforming: Mirror's Edge. Mechanically speaking, that game feels more like Tomb Raider than any of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider games have so far...
...A first-person TR like Mirror's Edge would be interesting, and also, likely better than TR2013 so I agree with that at least...
...You could take most of what Mirror's Edge does and translate it to third-person. Would probably have to go with a fixed camera like Core's TR games had which some people may consider outdated but I don't...
They'll never do it, but if they made the climbing system more engaging/challenging, that would be awesome.
There's a great game makers toolkit on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQRr3pXxsGo
People also have to remember that the next Tomb Raider game is handled by Eidos Montreal, famous for Deus Ex Human Revolution, Thief 2014, and Deus Ex Mankind Divided...
I'll just leave this here too:
Untold Riches: The Intricate Platforming of Tomb Raider
It has been posted a couple of times over the years in TR threads...
Great article that puts into proper words what I always try to articulate about the series. I think the platforming and traversal is amazing to this day...
People also have to remember that the next Tomb Raider game is handled by Eidos Montreal, famous for Deus Ex Human Revolution, Thief 2014, and Deus Ex Mankind Divided.
They turned it down a little bit.
The story's MUCH worse, though.
A Tomb Raider game, not an Uncharted game.