Too Human – Stand and be counted

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Jun 7, 2004
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Slamo said:
Again, from the original post:

When the game is released and everyone plays game all the speculation will be over. If I am wrong and gamers in general think the game is “crap” then I am comfortable with getting tagged “Owned by the GAF”.
If you repeatedly choose to ignore the OP, there is nothing more I can do for you.

RevenantKioku said:
Because instead of pointing this out to a mod, he made a goofy ass thread. A stupid ass thread. Then people actually started to put out realistic bets, and he just showed that he's an idiot. It's funny.
A "realistic" bet? How about a bet that backs up what you've been calling the game for years? The bet as it stands so far is a pussy bet, because the claim was the game was "shit" and then there is back-pedalling to change it to "the game has to be AAA now".

RiskyChris said:
You'd think the developer would take a more diplomatic approach in interacting with the fans (and in Dyack's case, anti-fans).

Instead he barges in here basically trying to be a fucking internet hero.
I'm not going to argue with that. As I said earlier, I can totally see people calling him "childish" for this very reason.

That's all fine and dandy...I'm just finding it funny that all the mods who called the game "shit" have run away here, or challenged him to a bet that is a total back-pedal from their original claims.

Some people are trying to defend these back-pedallers by distorting Dyack's bet and claims.
 
Apr 4, 2007
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a.wd said:
Is this a public forum? The reason I started here is because we have developers and industry people coming in and being more interactive with the guys here, from Cliffy to Che, we have a bunch of people who will come in and make their opinion known.

I'm not saying this is you Duckroll, but It seems that people are being especially insulting to Denis and his work, more so than other games around here. If someone went into a MGS thread and started shitting the place up then I would think they would get banned. But too human seems to be given a pass in terms of the people having a go.

If a developer calls out GAF for unfair behaviour, isn't there a bigger problem here anyway?
You're right, I don't know about "free pass" but there is definitely a lot of hate for Dyack and Too Human, certainly a lot is unjustified (c'mon, it's NeoGAF...).

Still, regardless of everything he might have say about the game, when duckroll asked said developper for debate on page 6, see what he was given as an answer.

If Cliffy isn't mocked and bashed when he posts on GAF, maybe it's because he doesn't make himself look like an ass.
 
Jun 15, 2007
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RevenantKioku said:
But he is also saying it is the best game they made. So, if he agrees to use that scale as he showed with his comment about comparing it to Haze and Lair, then it only makes sense to compare it to their previously best game on that scale.
He defines what he means by "For" and "Against" later on in his post. He says he thinks it's the best game they made and that puts him in the "For" camp.

That doesn't mean he is telling Eternal Darkness fans, for example, they are wrong if they prefer ED to TH. He is simply saying that because he has such bold opinions on the quality of his product he is most definitely a "For" person.

But "For" means you think the game will be "well received".
 

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FightyF said:
Again, from the original post:



If you repeatedly choose to ignore the OP, there is nothing more I can do for you.



A "realistic" bet? How about a bet that backs up what you've been calling the game for years? The bet as it stands so far is a pussy bet, because the claim was the game was "shit" and then there is back-pedalling to change it to "the game has to be AAA now".



I'm not going to argue with that. As I said earlier, I can totally see people calling him "childish" for this very reason.

That's all fine and dandy...I'm just finding it funny that all the mods who called the game "shit" have run away here, or challenged him to a bet that is a total back-pedal from their original claims.

Some people are trying to defend these back-pedallers by distorting Dyack's bet and claims.
BECAUSE DYACK HAS MADE A CLAIM THAT IS MUCH STRONGER! He's not just saying "WAH, GUYS! MY GAME WON'T BE SHIT!"
If we say you can't lift two pounds and then you say you can lift 300, we no longer care if you can lift two pounds or not.

Endow said:
He defines what he means by "For" and "Against" later on in his post. He says he thinks it's the best game they made and that puts him in the "For" camp.

That doesn't mean he is telling Eternal Darkness fans, for example, they are wrong if they prefer ED to TH. He is simply saying that because he has such bold opinions on the quality of his product he is most definitely a "For" person.

But "For" means you think the game will be "well received".
Yes, but as the developer his opinions will change things.
 
Feb 21, 2007
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RevenantKioku said:
BECAUSE DYACK HAS MADE A CLAIM THAT IS MUCH STRONGER! He's not just saying "WAH, GUYS! MY GAME WON'T BE SHIT!"
If we say you can't lift two pounds and then you say you can lift 300, we no longer care if you can lift two pounds or not.
Essentially Dyack is talking shit and people are defending him for it.

"Bubububu backpedaling!"

Dyack backed himself right up into that corner.
 
Feb 15, 2007
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duckroll said:
If you choose to only look at Too Human threads, and go "if this happened in another thread they would all be banned", that's simply an assumption and it is untrue.
In this case I´d like to ask you to check said TH threads for the posts by f.i. Mabuza. He´s just an example for someone with clearly no interest in the game, but obviously a free pass to blatantly troll it anytime he chooses to do so.
 

itxaka

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Relaxed Muscle said:
I don't think 85% can stand for "one of the best games of the year" and being "our best game and a great game".

If you made those claims, 85% isn't enough, and ED is not overrated IMO, and a lot of people here and everywhere (me included) liked a lot back then and even now...

So, if the bigger project, ambitious one can't surpass ED, I said it's failure....

but...I don't care, this all thing is funny....but retarded and stupid....,it's not even worth to disccuss what metacritic average should be used or whatnot....
Going by Metacritic scores:

88 games released this year for the 360 with an average of 65,99% score.
54 games released this year for the ps3 with an average of 70% score

Both platforms combined gives an average of 67,48% score

It´s not difficult to be above the average of the games released this year up to this point (counting that there are coming big games after the summer, all of them 80%+ probably)

So taking the 360 average I will say that a 80% score is the middle tier for a good game, so more than 83% Dyack wins, less than 74% Evilore wins, and the in between score is just a good game, not incredible but not shit.


Instead he barges in here basically trying to be a fucking internet hero.
Then Jaffe do stupid things and GAF acclaims him for saying Fuck.
 
Jun 28, 2007
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I think Dennis has done far too much talking.

SK should just bear down and make this game and let it speak for itself.

Right now I'm neither for or against. I need to play the game to decide.
 
Oct 22, 2007
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FightyF said:
If you repeatedly choose to ignore the OP, there is nothing more I can do for you.
Denis Dyack said:
I feel Too Human is a great game, likely to be better than most that will come out this year. I certainly feel it is the best game we have ever made. I also believe the press and gamers alike will believe this.
That's what I mean by no confidence. He says this but, according to some of you, only bets that TH is better than crap.
 
Mar 23, 2007
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Francias Castiglione said:
Yeah the thing about Lair being hyped and hyped is one of the main points, it was given a far fairer shake than Too Human has probably ever received here. Even when it was stated by a few people that Factor 5 weren't even sure what kind of game it would ultimately be (and they apparently decided on "broken")
Hang on a minute now. Too Human was heralded and spoken about a lot with anticipation up until E3. After that almost everything I read was bad and I still refused to believe the game was that bad. Then with their media blowout they seemed to win quite a few people back whilst annoying a few with their teasing. To me all that happened was they didn't handle their momentum as well as some others and after that they never recovered from it. The thing is a lot of games have had similar fates but have managed to just let it go and deliver their game reguardless. Thats also where a lot of the animosity lies, in Denis's insistance on stirring the pot and using the game as a shield.

With haze they had a lot of hype during the beggining period. Then Ubisoft seemingly annoyed and secluded the 360 shooter fanbase by retracting 360 and being dubious. Thats where a lot of their animosity started creeping in from. Then the exclusivity probably did it for some, then combind with the fact that the game was just not good. After it's worth was proven then almost everyone chimed in and it became a pit.
 
Jun 15, 2007
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RevenantKioku said:
If we say you can't lift two pounds and then you say you can lift 300, we no longer care if you can lift two pounds or not.
Why? Do you start believing he can, in fact, lift two pounds simply because he says he's Hercules?

That's beside the point though. He isn't trying to top ED because ultimately it's very subjective which great game you prefer. But the difference between "shit" and "well received" isn't subjective at all, though.


RevenantKioku said:
Yes, but as the developer his opinions will change things.
What exactly do you mean?
 

RevenantKioku

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Endow said:
Why? Do you start believing he can, in fact, lift two pounds simply because he says he's Hercules?

That's beside the point though. He isn't trying to top ED because ultimately it's very subjective which great game you prefer. But the difference between "shit" and "well received" isn't subjective at all, though.

What exactly do you mean?
He is raising the bar but then not willing to defend it. It's really that simple.
Like I said, I don't go by these internet ranking machines for any number of reasons. But if he somehow deems Lair and Haze a fair comparison but not a game that he claims this is better than, well then, where can we go from here but assume that he is just talking out of his ass. And thereby the game deserves the trolling it gets.
 
May 9, 2007
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kmfdmpig said:
I feel like I'm teaching grammar to my cat, or to someone in second grade.

Better than most means better than more games than it's worse than.

I think you're interpreting the words to mean "better than all, which is clearly different.".

No offense dude, but I taught English overseas for 3.5 years, and basic students would be able to tell the difference.
'Grats, you taught English.

Now perhaps you can start taking context and connotation into consideration!
 
Aug 13, 2007
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Francias Castiglione said:
I'm pretty damn sure he was saying that was what the trolls had reduced his game to in Too Human threads, calling it a Haze/Lair style balls up. Then he says "don't go [sic] to high" about the chosen threshold of the bet because that would show a lack of confidence on the part of those wanting to see it fail.
Exactly. Anyone who can't understand this either lacks basic reading comprehension or is being disingenuous because it suits their trolling.
 
Aug 13, 2007
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Kolgar said:
I don't think Denis is saying his game has to beat the scores of Haze and Lair, precisely.

I think he's using them as "troll reference" because they were highly anticipated titles, expected to be big hitters for the console, and they fell flat on their fucking faces.

He's saying Too Human, despite how much it's trolled here on GAF, WON'T fail like that. Nay, it will exceed expectations and be a success.

Reading comprehension is key to successful tag bets and not looking like a meat-slapping mouth breather.
Another one who actually gets it.
 
Jun 8, 2004
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I hope Too Human delievers, but the omission of 4 player co-op is a major problem for me. I know Denis and SK promote the story as the main draw, but the main draw for me was the co-op online and with two players, it's just not the same.

Do I think Too Human will be better than most games released this year? Yes.

Do I think it will be praised by players and media alike? Not really. Some will like it, a lot of people will have issues with the controls or they will hold the development history against it.

Will I enjoy it? I hope so.

I'm a Swede and we tend to stay neutral so I'm not taking sides... not until I've tried for a bit longer than what I played at GDC.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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RevenantKioku said:
BECAUSE DYACK HAS MADE A CLAIM THAT IS MUCH STRONGER! He's not just saying "WAH, GUYS! MY GAME WON'T BE SHIT!"
If we say you can't lift two pounds and then you say you can lift 300, we no longer care if you can lift two pounds or not.
RiskyChris said:
Essentially Dyack is talking shit and people are defending him for it.

"Bubububu backpedaling!"

Dyack backed himself right up into that corner.
Both of you are missing the point of this entire thread.

This has everything to do with the claims of the mods. Dyack is calling them out on it.

He and his game have been attacked for the last 2 years here. So he calls them out.

What's so hard to understand?

duckroll said:
This is a perception problem. Lots of "if", "I would think", "seems", etc. It's simply not true. People say negative things about everything and anything all the time. If you choose to only look at Too Human threads, and go "if this happened in another thread they would all be banned", that's simply an assumption and it is untrue.
An assumption based on how statements like this:

His game sucks.
The game is shitty because I say it is shitty.
are acceptable. Yet I would get a red square because I said a racing game had too much blur. Never said the game was shitty, just said that it had way too much blur that makes cornering hard to see.

Slamo said:
If you repeatedly choose to ignore the OP, there is nothing more I can do for you.

That's what I mean by no confidence. He says this but, according to some of you, only bets that TH is better than crap.
That's because he does. You clearly have issues regarding comprehension here that I can't help you with. In another post, he even posts two games (Haze and LAIR) in order to be able to use as a metric for the bet. He clearly defines the terms for the bet.
 
Aug 13, 2007
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FightyF said:
WTF, YES IT IS.

Why would he post on GAF, of all places, to make a bet that this game is better than his previous?

THINK for second.

His game is being unfairly treated on this forum.

So he's saying that if it IS shit, then give him a tag.

If not, then the haters who have been allowed to troll the game for the last couple of years, will get a tag of their own.

Haven't you even read the OP?

It was the haters that compared his game to Haze and LAIR.

For any other game, people would have been banned for such trolling. Dennis has noticed this, I have, you should have, many other have as well. Dennis is just calling out the mods on the hypocricy here.
GAF likes to think it's superior to all the other crap out there, it's sad that I can keep count of the intelligent posters in this thread with my hands...
 

RevenantKioku

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FightyF said:
Both of you are missing the point of this entire thread.

This has everything to do with the claims of the mods. Dyack is calling them out on it.

He and his game have been attacked for the last 2 years here. So he calls them out.
What's so hard to understand?
An assumption based on how statements like this:
are acceptable. Yet I would get a red square because I said a racing game had too much blur. Never said the game was shitty, just said that it had way too much blur that makes cornering hard to see.
That's because he does. You clearly have issues regarding comprehension here that I can't help you with. In another post, he even posts two games (Haze and LAIR) in order to be able to use as a metric for the bet. He clearly defines the terms for the bet.
Dyack is being a douche.
If he really wanted to call out the injustice and believes this is how to do it, he is a moron. Believe me, I comprehend all the shit you keep repeating. It has become irrelevant. Whether or not you want to acknowledge this is up to you.
 

RevenantKioku

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FightyF said:
So he's a douche and a moron because he wants to have a light hearted "tag" bet?

Ok then...
I thought he was calling out injustice? Now he's having a light hearted tag bet?
Plus, anyway, he's a douche and a moron for a good number of reasons in this thread. I'll let you play where's waldo with it, but it'll be like finding your head in Dyack's ass. Quite easy.
 
Aug 13, 2007
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Francias Castiglione said:
Good lord he was referencing the shit-pit Too Human threads that have plagued GAF for the past whoknowshowlong. Hence the words "troll reference".

Then he goes on to say that the "against" side setting the meta-score bar too high would show a lack of conviction about their feelings towards the game. If they really think it will be that bad then a very low score would be forthcoming surely.
God this is getting annoying, I can't believe so many people can totally miss the point.

Seriously, someone with time on their hands look through all the Too Human threads from the last 2-3 years and compile a sampling of all the worst comments, comments that would get users banned in other threads, but not in this case where the mods will probably join the feeding frenzy.
Dyack is fat, Too Human will be a shitty game, it will bomb like Lair, etc.

---

There is so much stupidity in this thread I'm just using it to fill up my ignore list now. Shocking how most of the haters don't have XBL accounts listed in their profiles...
 
Mar 16, 2007
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duckroll said:
This is a perception problem. Lots of "if", "I would think", "seems", etc. It's simply not true. People say negative things about everything and anything all the time. If you choose to only look at Too Human threads, and go "if this happened in another thread they would all be banned", that's simply an assumption and it is untrue.



But he didn't. He started a thread wanting to bet tags over how good the response of his game is. Seems like a pretty big difference to me.
Ok, you are right, there are lots of "if", "I would think", "seems" because I don't troll threads, I stick to the rules I own all the platforms and just care about games, so I don't have a huge amount of specific personal examples. But going from my casual observance, I am interested in MGS, and those threads are populated by people who love the game and any dissent is quickly slapped down. In too human threads it seems the overwhelmingly vocal majority is there to have a go at the game and the antics of those who do it are seen as "lol-worthy".

As a casual observer I see that there is a trend generally, and I can also see the point of Denis making a thread to push a little fun back at people ripping his game. But fun aside for Denis to feel that he is being unfairly treated, that he would have to make this thread in the first place, do you not see that as a reflection of how that games general perception is here?

I'm not saying the mods cant have opinions, and I'm certainly not saying anything about your opinion, (hell 9 times out of 10 your opinion matches mine word for word!) I do feel though that this whole thing has come about because of unfair treatment.
 
May 7, 2006
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I don't think 85% can stand for "one of the best games of the year" and being "our best game and a great game".

If you made those claims, 85% isn't enough, and ED is not overrated IMO, and a lot of people here and everywhere (me included) liked a lot back then and even now...

So, if the bigger project, ambitious one can't surpass ED, I said it's failure....

but...I don't care, this all thing is funny....but retarded and stupid....,it's not even worth to disccuss what metacritic average should be used or whatnot....
I agree with everything you've said - that's why I called 85% "generous". This is ridiculous though. As far as I can see, the haters were just hating, who cares? They weren't the ones coming in here and making any bets. Dyack has been the one trying to bring it, so it should be him who rolls the hard 6.

I've never had much of an opinion on Too Human because it really isn't my kind of game. The only reason I'm not plonking down a permaban bet is because I have no idea how people into this genre will take to the game and they're going to be the ones writing the reviews.
 
Oct 22, 2007
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a.wd said:
As a casual observer I see that there is a trend generally, and I can also see the point of Denis making a thread to push a little fun back at people ripping his game. But fun aside for Denis to feel that he is being unfairly treated, that he would have to make this thread in the first place, do you not see that as a reflection of how that games general perception is here?
This is so very true but DD lost it somewhere on the way. My first reply in this thread was very different from my last.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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RevenantKioku said:
I thought he was calling out injustice? Now he's having a light hearted tag bet?
He's doing both. It's not like he came in here and threatened to sue anyone, or cussed anyone out.

You're attempting to paint him has a prick, when all he did was ask for a tag bet to point out that those calling it "crap" for the last 2 years, are completely wrong.
 
Feb 21, 2007
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FightyF said:
He's doing both. It's not like he came in here and threatened to sue anyone, or cussed anyone out.

You're attempting to paint him has a prick, when all he did was ask for a tag bet to point out that those calling it "crap" for the last 2 years, are completely wrong.
"Put up or shut up" That's where Denis really lost it.
 
May 7, 2006
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In another post, he even posts two games (Haze and LAIR) in order to be able to use as a metric for the bet.
"This is the best game we've ever made, and it's better than most games coming out this year. If it's better than fucking Haze or Lair, you lose suckas!"

but not in this case where the mods will probably join the feeding frenzy.
People are saying if you spoke out against MGS or GTA this way, you'd be banned. Well yeah because they both looked undebatably incredible before they came out. This? Not so much. Plus, how long's this thing been in development? You're jokes if you don't think that deserves some ridicule.
 
Jun 15, 2007
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RevenantKioku said:
He is raising the bar but then not willing to defend it. It's really that simple.
Like I said, I don't go by these internet ranking machines for any number of reasons. But if he somehow deems Lair and Haze a fair comparison but not a game that he claims this is better than, well then, where can we go from here but assume that he is just talking out of his ass. And thereby the game deserves the trolling it gets.
He was voicing his personal opinion on TH's quality as game when compared to ED. Maybe,as an example, he thought Blood Omen was a better game than ED too. That says nothing about whether it was better received or not. It's his opinion. He clearly defined the "For" as a group of people who think the game will be well received and not better received then ED. I mean, it's not like he could speak for anybody else as far as our personal preferences are concerned, and in fact wouldn't make much sense for him to make us choose from two of his games.

And you can bet you wouldn't have half of the "For"s if the bet was "TH being better received when compared with ED"...
 

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a.wd said:
But going from my casual observance, I am interested in MGS, and those threads are populated by people who love the game and any dissent is quickly slapped down. In too human threads it seems the overwhelmingly vocal majority is there to have a go at the game and the antics of those who do it are seen as "lol-worthy".
Exactly right. It's disingenuous to claim that the behavior in Too Human threads are par for the course around here. You literally cannot discuss the game at all at GAF. It takes far too much time to sift through all the shit slinging and personal shots leveled at Denis.

Obviously, this thread probably wasn't such a great idea. I don't think it's going to endear Denis to the people here who hate him (and yeah, as sad as it is, it is legitimate, full on, boner-inducing hatred). That said, I don't think the perception of him or his game can be damaged any further around here. If you want to walk into any Too Human thread today, call Denis fat, say that his game and studio are pieces of shit, and then put yourself on repeat for a few hours, you'll find that you're pretty much free to do so. And you may as well have official sanction because often there will be a moderator or two right alongside doing exactly the same thing.
 
Aug 13, 2007
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duckroll said:
If you choose to only look at Too Human threads, and go "if this happened in another thread they would all be banned", that's simply an assumption and it is untrue.
Hammer24 said:
In this case I´d like to ask you to check said TH threads for the posts by f.i. Mabuza. He´s just an example for someone with clearly no interest in the game, but obviously a free pass to blatantly troll it anytime he chooses to do so.
Don't forget this gem just because it's not from a Too Human thread:

mabuza said:
i cant wait for the oficial too human thread so i can get my revenge trolling on.
I'll donate $20 to charity if that guy even owns a 360.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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RiskyChris said:
"Put up or shut up" That's where Denis really lost it.
How so?

I mean, people call it shit, and then back-pedal and say, "well you're going to have to define terms of this and that" when he clearly asked people to state whether they are for or against.

People who call the game crap and then try to weasel themselves out of a bet that would demonstrate that they were wrong...Dennis's response was perfect.

Nexus Zero said:
"This is the best game we've ever made, and it's better than most games coming out this year. If it's better than fucking Haze or Lair, you lose suckas!"
Yeah, you're just putting words into his mouth like everyone else who is attempting to weasel out of this bet. Taking two different statements made in different contexts, and then mashing them together...is very dishonest.
 

Vilix

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Denis Dyack said:
I think it is time to draw the digital line. Too Human will be out in August and I think there is going to be a lot of trolls crying here. Either way when the game comes out this forum will likely be on fire. So in order to try to put it out some gasoline on this fire I will ask those interested to stand up and be counted.

I feel Too Human is a great game, likely to be better than most that will come out this year. I certainly feel it is the best game we have ever made. I also believe the press and gamers alike will believe this. This puts me in the “For” camp.

I know there are many who feel strongly in opposite camp. I also would ask you to stand up and say “Against”.

When the game is released and everyone plays game all the speculation will be over. If I am wrong and gamers in general think the game is “crap” then I am comfortable with getting tagged “Owned by the GAF”.

However, if I am right and it is received well, I would like to see those “Against” to be tagged with “Owned by Too Human”.

I would like to make a honorary invitation to EvilLore and Duckroll who help fuel the fire on a regular basis – assuming you both would be “Against”. In the end though, it is your decision and I want to remind everyone that I have an advantage of actually playing the game.

I invite anyone who seeing someone trolling Too Human in other threads to point them here. :D

So it’s time to be stand and be counted:

Denis Dyack - “For”

OMFG! You've gone from a competent game developer to a whiney little bitch. I swear, if anyone says one little bad thing about your product you go haywire.

You obviously are capable of putting out some great games. I loved Eternal Darkness. But do you know how much of a baby you look like when do stuff like this?????

Here's a tip...

IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO BRING YOUR ARGUEMENT TO THE GAMING PUBLIC, IF YOUR GAME SUCKS THEN IT SUCKS!!!

Can you grasp that????
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Jun 6, 2004
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1,565
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Nara, Japan
www.bookofrevenant.com
FightyF said:
He's doing both. It's not like he came in here and threatened to sue anyone, or cussed anyone out.

You're attempting to paint him has a prick, when all he did was ask for a tag bet to point out that those calling it "crap" for the last 2 years, are completely wrong.
Why would I do that? For fun and giggles?
I have nothing invested in Too Human. I come in here and read a thread. I call a spade a spade. He's painting himself just fine without any help from me.
And you can't be wrong. I can say right here and now that Too Human is a shit game because it is made by a dickhead. It's the magic of opinions!
And GAF doesn't have to treat anything fair, by the way.
 

robor

Junior Member
Jan 9, 2007
2,411
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Australia
RiskyChris said:
Essentially Dyack is talking shit and people are defending him for it.

"Bubububu backpedaling!"

Dyack backed himself right up into that corner.
Shit is far from it where you stand.

RevenantKioku said:
Why would I do that? For fun and giggles?
I have nothing invested in Too Human. I come in here and read a thread. I call a spade a spade. He's painting himself just fine without any help from me.
And you can't be wrong. I can say right here and now that Too Human is a shit game because it is made by a dickhead. It's the magic of opinions!
And GAF doesn't have to treat anything fair, by the way.
It's also the magic of snobbery.
 
Sep 24, 2006
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FightyF said:
How so?

I mean, people call it shit, and then back-pedal and say, "well you're going to have to define terms of this and that" when he clearly asked people to state whether they are for or against.

People who call the game crap and then try to weasel themselves out of a bet that would demonstrate that they were wrong...Dennis's response was perfect.



Yeah, you're just putting words into his mouth like everyone else who is attempting to weasel out of this bet. Taking two different statements made in different contexts, and then mashing them together...is very dishonest.
The mob has formed bro they are looking to burn the witch (Denis) talking logically to them will do nothing but cause you a headache :lol :lol :lol
 
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