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Ukraine/Russia conflict NEWS thread - Updates on the Ukrainian crisis.

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M

maquiladora

Member
Check out the guy on the left raising the "Novorossya" flag over Debaltseve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeHz7GMVE9c

Just a local miner from east Ukraine....or perhaps a man of Mongolic ethnicity belonging to a Russian military unit from far eastern Russia, perhaps belonging to this same unit...erm I mean, group of local Ukrainian farmers, from a few days ago...

jt2uV73.jpg
 
Doczu

Doczu

Member
Overdoziz said:
They don't even recognize Dutch as an official language. Our people are being oppressed. We should send our tank and helicopter to deal with this matter.
Click to expand...

Don't stop there, you should reclaim your lost territories in the pacific. That will teach them for rebelling!

And yo, while we're at it - any lithuanian users here? I think it's time to get back to the game. Lets unite, tear apart western Ukraine, reclaim Latvia, most of Estonia, make Lukashenko our bitch and get some Russian land back.
 
MisterFalcon

MisterFalcon

Member
Outcome said:
I said that Russia WILL NOT GRAB ANYTHING after Crimea, because Crimea was a unique place in russian history. Stop making up silly reasons for russia to conquer half of the world.
Click to expand...

Yeah, in no other area was the original population so completely cleansed and replaced by import Russians. Very unique.
 
O

Outcome

Banned
MisterFalcon said:
Yeah, in no other area was the original population so completely cleansed and replaced by import Russians. Very unique.
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So, you mean that in 1954 when the Crimean region was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic there were more Ukrainians (or less Russians) in Crimea than today?

UPDATE: from wiki "The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993) and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993)".
So, no one was cleansing Crimea out of Ukrainians they were only building up there.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Outcome said:
So, you mean that in 1954 when the Crimean region was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic there were more Ukrainians (or less Russians) in Crimea than today?
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Please keep ignoring all the other comments...

And what does it has to do with anything who is in the region? The region belongs to Ukraine! Why is this even a discussion?

Really dude, are you really believing in the stuff you throw out here? Because it is getting hard to believe. What is even your point half the time. It all makes no sense.
 
K

KillerMan91

Member
crayman said:
With the Ukrainan withdrawl from Debaltseve, I wonder if the rebels will be satisfied. I think they'll probably want to appear to be complying with Minsk-2 for a bit to take some of the heat off. eg. https://meduza.io/news/2015/02/18/dnr-ob-yavila-o-nachale-otvoda-tyazhelyh-vooruzheniy

But will they really stop there? They have a few more long term targets. Such as:


  • Push north along the Russian border to open up more convenient road routes into Russia.
  • Try and take back Slovyansk and Kramatorsk.
    [*]Push west through Mariupol to form the land bridge with Crimea.
With the current tactics, any of those will take months and would totally wreck any towns along the way.
Click to expand...

I think it's more about just taking one of the most important port cities from Ukraine and that way crippling them. Land bridge is only secondary objective (Russia is after all already building kerch strait bridge that would connect mainland and Crimea)
 
P

phaze

Member
Nivash said:
Unclear. Separatists claim it was completely surrounded, the UAF claims it wasn't. What appears to be completely clear in any case is that the only major road in the area, the M03, was turned into a killing zone by separatist artillery and mines. There might have been some room for the trapped UAF units to maneuver in a break-out attempt but not a lot. Certainly no safe corridors. Casualties will probably be high and it's unlikely that they'll get any larger equipment through.

Pulling a Kharkov 42 might have been an option if the UAF units had the mobility and firepower to do it but it doesn't appear that they have. Not that Kharkov 42 was overwhelmingly successful in the first place.
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Alright thanks ! Sounds like the most plausible scenario.

And I don't know, as a counter attack that destroyed an entire arm of planned encirclement I think it was pretty successful.
 
O

Outcome

Banned
ClosingADoor said:
Really dude, are you really believing in the stuff you throw out here? Because it is getting hard to believe. What is even your point half the time. It all makes no sense.
Click to expand...

My point is that russia will not annex anything after Crimea. Everybody here is trying to convince me otherwise. That's it.
 
G

glaurung

Member
maquiladora said:
Check out the guy on the left raising the "Novorossya" flag over Debaltseve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeHz7GMVE9c

Just a local miner from east Ukraine....or perhaps a man of Mongolic ethnicity belonging to a Russian military unit from far eastern Russia, perhaps belonging to this same unit...erm I mean, group of local Ukrainian farmers, from a few days ago...
Click to expand...
I felt sick when scrolling through the YT comments on that video. The average commentator is calling those raising the flag "heroes of New Russia" and "our best boys ever".

I can sense that those guys would post similar comments for a video where those russo-mongol fucks are flaying Ukrainian children or raping underage boys.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Outcome said:
My point is that russia will not annex anything after Crimea. Everybody here is trying to convince me otherwise. That's it.
Click to expand...
OK, then explain to me what the Russians are trying to do in Eastern Ukraine now. Or do you still not believe that is Russia running the show?

And still my question: Do you actually support the "if there are lots of ethnic Russians in the area, Russia can grab it"-line?
 
Doczu

Doczu

Member
Outcome said:
So, you mean that in 1954 when the Crimean region was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic there were more Ukrainians (or less Russians) in Crimea than today?

UPDATE: from wiki "The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993) and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993)".
So, no one was cleansing Crimea out of Ukrainians they were only building up there.
Click to expand...

Well there wasn't much to cleanse after the Holodomor, right? In one year the Russians murdered indirectly about 10 million people, from which about 6 million were miscarriages due to malnutrition.

EDIT: Fun fact - The biggest Russian population is in the east of Ukraine. The part of the country that was hit the most with the man-made famine.
 
X

Xenex

Member
Outcome said:
My point is that russia will not annex anything after Crimea. Everybody here is trying to convince me otherwise. That's it.
Click to expand...

1. Annexing anything shouldn't be tolerated in the first place.
2. Trying to rip a country into 2 states is still shameful, even though this technically isn't annexing.
 
C

crayman

Member
Doczu said:
Well there wasn't much to cleanse after the Holodomor, right? In one year the Russians murdered indirectly about 10 million people, from which about 6 million were miscarriages due to malnutrition.
Click to expand...

Also they deported 230,000 Crimean Tatars (100,000 of which died of starvation and disease caused by the deportation.) which at the time was about one fifth of the total population of the Crimean Peninsula - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
 
O

Outcome

Banned
ClosingADoor said:
OK, then explain to me what the Russians are trying to do in Eastern Ukraine now. Or do you still not believe that is Russia running the show?

And still my question: Do you actually support the "if there are lots of ethnic Russians in the area, Russia can grab it"-line?
Click to expand...

Russians are trying to get their influence there which influence they lost after US put their government.

More than half of russians there, strategic military base (russian) which has been there for more than 250 years which base is likely to be kicked off from there by pro-US government, and support of %80 russian citizens === grab-it for Putin.

As to me, I wish Crimea stayed Ukraine. All russians (including me and my family my friends and colleagues) only lost money because of it while gaining absolutely nothing.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Outcome said:
Russians are trying to get their influence there which influence they lost after US put their government.

More than half of russians there, strategic military base (russian) which has been there for more than 250 years which base is likely to be kicked off from there by pro-US government, and support of %80 russian citizens === grab-it for Putin.

As to me, I wish Crimea stayed Ukraine. All russians (including me and my family my friends and colleagues) only lost money because of it while gaining absolutely nothing.
Click to expand...
Yes, I see the reasons for Putin to grab it. And it is disgusting. But good to know you do not support that yourself then, thanks.

Although it is strange you still think the US put a government there. There is no evidence for that and no reason for the US to do it. But I don't think having that discussion again will convince you of anything.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
ClosingADoor said:
Yes, I see the reasons for Putin to grab it. And it is disgusting. But good to know you do not support that yourself then, thanks.
Click to expand...

Meh. Whataboutism and making excuses instead of facing reality and being sincere about one's beliefs is just another way of showing support. He reminds me of American "independents" who are totally not Republican but totally vote for them come the elections. Just grow the balls to say what you really want to say and get done with it.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
 
G

glaurung

Member
Funky Papa said:
Outcome is a propagandist (self-aware or not), but I don't think this kind of discusion is helping unless he breaks the TOS.
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Yea I edited my original post. I have no intention of getting banned because of him since he would consider that a moral victory for mazer rossia.
 
O

Outcome

Banned
ClosingADoor said:
Although it is strange you still think the US put a government there. There is no evidence for that and no reason for the US to do it.
Click to expand...
Obama's word quoted by CNN:
And since Mr. Putin made this decision around Crimea and Ukraine - not because of some grand strategy, but essentially because he was caught off-balance by the protests in the Maidan and Yanukovych then fleeing after we had brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine
Click to expand...
Don't you think it proves it?
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Outcome said:
Obama's word quoted by CNN:

Don't you think it proves it?
Click to expand...
No, I do not. You make it sound like it was the US plan to destabilize Ukraine and get a new government in. Guess what, the people of Ukraine wanted a new government because they got tired of the corruption of the old one. Only after the protests started, other nations voiced their support for the Ukrainian people - because the old government didn't listen to the population!

But really, I'm not going through that with you, because it will not change your mind and only detracts from the news in this thread.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
I'm curious which countries/territories are fair game for Russian annexation so we know when to complain and when not to. From what I've gathered the territory had to be part of Russia at some point in all of history, there has to be a Russian speaking population there, and it has to have a unique place in Russian history. Can someone compile a list?
 
MisterFalcon

MisterFalcon

Member
Veritigo_X said:
I'm curious which countries/territories are fair game for Russian annexation so we know when to complain and when not to. From what I've gathered the territory had to be part of Russia at some point in all of history, there has to be a Russian speaking population there, and it has to have a unique place in Russian history. Can someone compile a list?
Click to expand...

All of Europe east of the Oder river.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_America (Alaska)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica (discovered by a Russian)
 
R

Resident_UA

Member
Outcome said:
Debaltseve was claimed to be within rebels territory on the date of Minsk-2. .
Click to expand...

What you don't realize is that even if this is true, Russia still broke cease fire. There's no way to twist this that would make Russia look good. Also if they think that Debaltsevo was part of Minsk 2 that's actually really bad for them. That means that they tried to capture it but failed to do so on time, so they just called for cease fire and then captured it.

That's you whole problem. You come up with justification for everything. But when that logic is reversed you start disagreeing. There were a lot of Russians in Crimea? Great! Can we have Kuban back? That used to be part of Ukraine in the beginning of 20th century. You can use fucked up logic to justify anything. It does not make it right or excusable. How can you be sure that Russia will not invade Ukraine? How do you know what Putin thinks? Did you know at the time that Russian troops were occupying Crimea before the referendum?
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
I'm very relieved Poroshenko ordered the retreat out of Debaltsevo. He saved thousands of lives, though he should have done it a week earlier.
 
R

Resident_UA

Member
Yamauchi said:
Debaltsevo was surrounded 3 days prior to the Minsk-2 agreement.
Click to expand...

According to your post which I quoted and you didn't respond it was surrounded a week before Minsk-2. Just because you say something it does not make it true. How did they leave today if it is completely surrounded AS OF 2 WEEKS ago?!!!

Also getting cease fire signed and then capturing a city is lowest level of scum no matter how you/Russian propaganda are trying to twist it.
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
Resident_UA said:
According to your post which I quoted and you didn't respond it was surrounded a week before Minsk-2. Just because you say something it does not make it true. How did they leave today if it is completely surrounded AS OF 2 WEEKS ago?!!!
Click to expand...
You've got to be kidding. You do not think Debaltsevo was surrounded as of 2/10/2015?
 
R

Resident_UA

Member
Yamauchi said:
Debaltsevo was surrounded 3 days prior to the Minsk-2 agreement.
Click to expand...

Yamauchi said:
I agree. The breakaway republics broke the ceasefire by continuing the assault.
Click to expand...

Yamauchi said:
I'm very relieved Poroshenko ordered the retreat out of Debaltsevo. He saved thousands of lives, though he should have done it a week earlier.
Click to expand...

I just needed to rearrange your posts and it's pretty clear how you shoveling Russian propaganda down our throats. :)
 
R

Resident_UA

Member
Yamauchi said:
You've got to be kidding. You do not think Debaltsevo was surrounded as of 2/10/2015?
Click to expand...

1. You LIED before. Your post was from February 6th.
2. On 10th volunteers were still using the road to Debaltsevo. It wasn't very safe but it was not completely surrounded.
3. It's still not COMPLETELY surrounded if Ukrainian army can relatively easily get out.
4. Why does it even matter? Cease fire was still broken.
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
Resident_UA said:
I just needed to rearrange your posts and it's pretty clear how you shoveling Russian propaganda down our throats. :)
Click to expand...
You do not believe Debaltsevo was encircled?

Here is the NY Times report on the escape from the city: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

This was called a breakout, or a fighting escape. It is common in ground wars when armies are encircled. The survivors themselves estimate that only between 50% and 1/3 of their forces managed to escape, and we are talking about over 6,000 troops. As far as I know, Debaltsevo has been completely encircled since the fall of Logvinova. If I said the city was completely encircled on February 6th, I was wrong. At that time, it was about 90% surrounded.

While I have been accused of spouting Russian propaganda for over a year, I am the only one I am aware of here on NeoGAF that accurately predicted the events that would unfold if there was a Banderist coup in Kiev, namely that Russia would annex Crimea, that a civil war would ensue and that Kiev would lose the Donbass. It's better to be right than to be loved.
 
C

crayman

Member
Resident_UA said:
According to your post which I quoted and you didn't respond it was surrounded a week before Minsk-2. Just because you say something it does not make it true. How did they leave today if it is completely surrounded AS OF 2 WEEKS ago?!!!

Also getting cease fire signed and then capturing a city is lowest level of scum no matter how you/Russian propaganda are trying to twist it.
Click to expand...

If you go by the Minsk agreements - Ukraine is supposed to get Debaltseve.

What everyone agreed to do in Minsk-2 was implement the Minsk Protocol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_II
for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014
Click to expand...

The line of contact established in the Minsk Memorandum to the Minsk protocol can be seen here: https://informnapalm.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/karta-polnayacc.jpg

So the rebels are breaking the agreement just by being there. It doesn't matter who held what when the ceasefire was called - that's not how it works.

Edit - Although in practice - this is exactly how it works of course. I think there was some disagreement on this point in the UNSC meeting yesterday.
 
R

Resident_UA

Member
Yamauchi said:
You do not believe Debaltsevo was encircled?

Here is the NY Times report on the escape from the city: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

This was called a breakout, or a fighting escape. It is common in ground wars when armies are encircled. The survivors themselves estimate that only between 50% and 1/3 of their forces managed to escape, and we are talking about over 6,000 troops. As far as I know, Debaltsevo has been completely encircled since the fall of Logvinova. If I said the city was completely encircled on February 6th, I was wrong. At that time, it was about 90% surrounded.

While I have been accused of spouting Russian propaganda for over a year, I am the only one I am aware of here on NeoGAF that accurately predicted the events that would unfold if there was a Banderist coup in Kiev, namely that Russia would annex Crimea, that a civil war would ensue and that Kiev would lose the Donbass. It's better to be right than to be loved.
Click to expand...

It was actually February 3rd when you posted that. What was the purpose of that post?

Yamauchi said:
Regrettably, it appears the encirclement of Debaltsevo by the Novorossian Armed Forces is complete and that a blood-bath may now ensue.

This war is spiraling out of control. With 'mobilizations' on both sides, we could soon see hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting a traditional land war (as far as casualties are concerned, the worst kind) in eastern Ukraine.
Click to expand...

You know why you "predicted" those things? Because Russian propaganda set them up in the first place. Another reason to be scared of their "nuke US and EU" narrative. Sure, if you want to predict what happens next you can follow Russian propaganda. But I would prefer to discuss what can be done to prevent Fascist Russia taking over Ukraine.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Yamauchi said:
While I have been accused of spouting Russian propaganda for over a year, I am the only one I am aware of here on NeoGAF that accurately predicted the events that would unfold if there was a Banderist coup in Kiev, namely that Russia would annex Crimea, that a civil war would ensue and that Kiev would lose the Donbass. It's better to be right than to be loved.
Click to expand...
Sure, and you have been saying how sad it all is like you really mean it... And how Ukraine could have prevented it. They should have retreated earlier! You shift the blame to Ukraine, while Russia is the aggressor and the one responsible for this whole mess.
 
MilkyJoe

MilkyJoe

Member
ClosingADoor said:
Sure, and you have been saying how sad it all is like you really mean it... And how Ukraine could have prevented it. They should have retreated earlier! You shift the blame to Ukraine, while Russia is the aggressor and the one responsible for this whole mess.
Click to expand...

Travee the interwebs to any forum and any Russian is going to blame everything on the Ukraine/Obama/NATO.

There is this penis head on one of my other forums that calls any proof of Russian involvement "western propaganda" or "NATO lies" You want to headbutt something...
 
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