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[StuBurns]

Yeah but that's dumb. ATB and recovery animations are two very different things. ATB is a cooldown that makes you wait before you can act again. Recovery animations are just that...animations.

I disagree. Animations aren't just to show you an action, they last specific times to balance encounters.

 

[Bel Marduk]

I disagree. Animations aren't just to show you an action, they last specific times to balance encounters.

Somtimes the waiting time for attacking is very negligible and doesn't have much to do with balance, rather they still need an animation to show. ATB really isn't negligible overall. You can speed up ATB but it's not the same thing.

I mean I see what you're saying, but ATB and regular animations just aren't the same...

 

[badcrumble]

I think it's pretty undeniable that ATB (and its assorted descendats) and ARPGs have gotten *closer* over the years; I just can't agree that they're now functionally the same thing, due to things like hitboxes, animation cancelling, weak points, et cetera.

 

[Elios83]

Hopefully Luminous engine is not so good to make them wait for the next gen to release the game XD

 

[StuBurns]

I mean I see what you're saying, but ATB and regular animations just aren't the same...

And I disagree. I bet that Versus trailer could have ATB bars, that fill at the exact same rate as the individual actions, and you'd say it was ATB.

The concept of ATB is the same as an action game, it's to force the player to act under time pressure, however it was being introduced within a very traditional Command-RPG system. FFXIII is the ultimate breaking point of ATB, it's faster than player input can even effectively be, even though you're only controlling one of the three party members.

I think an action combat design is the ultimate culmination of why the ATB concept was introduced.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Versus XIII itself is in anyway the ultimate culmination of the series or anything. Just that direct character controlled action is.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

You're focusing too much on a single detail IMO. The things badcrumble mentioned (hitboxes, animation cancelling, weak points, et cetera.) also contributes to the action part of Action RPGs.

Vagrant Story is a better example of a "fake" Action RPG, in that the timed button presses are really the only actiony thing about it.

 

[Bel Marduk]

And I disagree. I bet that Versus trailer could have ATB bars, that fill at the exact same rate as the individual actions, and you'd say it was ATB.

The concept of ATB is the same as an action game, it's to force the player to act under time pressure, however it was being introduced within a very traditional Command-RPG system. FFXIII is the ultimate breaking point of ATB, it's faster than player input can even effectively be, even though you're only controlling one of the three party members.

I think an action combat design is the ultimate culmination of why the ATB concept was introduced.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Versus XIII itself is in anyway the ultimate culmination of the series or anything. Just that direct character controlled action is.

That'd have to be some lightning-fast ATB then...which ATB is not. With ATB you're going to be waiting longer than the recovery animation for an action game. When it gets that fast, there's no need for ATB since it adds nothing and makes no sense.

The animation cancelling mentioned before is a good point. How would animation cancelling fit into ATB? You'd essentially be cancelling ATB bars at that point.

 

[StuBurns]

You're focusing too much on a single detail IMO. The things badcrumble mentioned (hitboxes, animation cancelling, weak points, et cetera.) also contributes to the action part of Action RPGs.

Vagrant Story is a better example of a "fake" Action RPG, in that the timed button presses are really the only actiony thing about it.

FFs have long had 'weak points' that are selectable on enemies.

But you're completely missing the point, maybe everyone else is too. In no way am I saying Versus is a 'fake' Action RPG.

That'd have to be some lightning-fast ATB then...which ATB is not. With ATB you're going to be waiting longer than the recovery animation for an action game. When it gets that fast, there's no need for ATB since it adds nothing and makes no sense.

The animation cancelling mentioned before is a good point. How would animation cancelling fit into ATB? You'd essentially be cancelling ATB bars at that point.

Are you saying, if Versus was like it is now, but after an attack you had to wait a few seconds while a little bar filled up, you would still say it isn't ATB because it had things such cancels? I don't believe you would. And if you wouldn't, what are you suggesting the tangible difference is? If it's literally just the time between actions, I want to know exactly how long you believe there needs to be between actions before it becomes ATB to you.

 

[Bel Marduk]

Are you saying, if Versus was like it is now, but after an attack you had to wait a few seconds while a little bar filled up, you would still say it isn't ATB because it had things such cancels? I don't believe you would. And if you wouldn't, what are you suggesting the tangible difference is? If it's literally just the time between actions, I want to know exactly how long you believe there needs to be between actions before it becomes ATB to you.

There isn't some sort of set time, but generally attacking in an action game without ATB is faster. If Versus had ATB, I really doubt there'd be some sort of thing as cancels. You can't do that in an ATB system where you're only allowed ONE move and not combo chains with different attacks. If it did, the battle system wouldn't be the same at all.

What you're talking about is adding some sort of bar that tells you how long the animation is until your next move. That's not ATB. That'd be completely useless anyway in an action game with very short recovery times. ATB tells you when you're allowed your next move, period. Not the animation. The animation is something different from ATB. ATB has no place.

 

[StuBurns]

There isn't some sort of set time, but generally attacking in an action game without ATB is faster. If Versus had ATB, I really doubt there'd be some sort of thing as cancels. You can't do that in an ATB system where you're only allowed ONE move and not combo chains with different attacks. If it did, the battle system wouldn't be the same at all.

What you're talking about is adding some sort of bar that tells you how long the animation is until your next move. That's not ATB. That'd be completely useless anyway in an action game with very short recovery times. ATB tells you when you're allowed your next move, period. Not the animation. The animation is something different from ATB. ATB has no place.

As you didn't answer the question I asked, and went out of your way to change it, I'll just take that as you agree but are too ashamed at admit it.

 

[Bel Marduk]

As you didn't answer the question I asked, and went out of your way to change it, I'll just take that as you agree but are too ashamed at admit it.

lol. Please don't make things up to make it seem like you're right.

And I did answer your question. The way the battle system is right now, ATB has no place. The battle system would have to be changed to accommodate ATB. You can't have Versus's style of action battle system ingrained with ATB - it makes no sense. You're trying to incorporate ATB with animation when that's not what ATB is. Things like cancels don't work in ATB. You can't cancel an ATB bar because you have to wait for it. How hard is this to understand? You can't incorporate something that doesn't work with a standard ATB system. Why doesn't the game use ATB in that case in the first place then? Because the way ATB is it can't support an action battle system like Versus's. It'd have to be changed.

 

[Skilletor]

If vs. had ATB, it'd be Crisis Core.

 

[StuBurns]

lol. Please don't make things up to make it seem like you're right.

And I did answer your question. The way the battle system is right now, ATB has no place. The battle system would have to be changed to accommodate ATB. You can't have Versus's style of action battle system ingrained with ATB - it makes no sense. You're trying to incorporate ATB with animation when that's not what ATB is. Things like cancels don't work in ATB. You can't cancel an ATB bar because you have to wait for it. How hard is this to understand? You can't incorporate something that doesn't work with a standard ATB system. Why doesn't the game use ATB in that case in the first place then? Because the way ATB is it can't support an action battle system like Versus's. It'd have to be changed.

Why exactly are cancels impossible in ATB? Because you say ATBs don't allow them? That's cyclical logic.

 

[Bel Marduk]

Why exactly are cancels impossible in ATB? Because you say ATBs don't allow them? That's cyclical logic.

If ATBs allowed cancels then the concept of ATB becomes worthless. ATB limits how many attacks you can take and how often through a cooldown bar. Once you start being able to cancel the ATB bar the battle system doesn't become any different from any action game. Canceling the ATB bar means you're no longer restricted by the cooldown and now you're restricted ONLY by the animation, same as any game. ATB has the cooldown ON TOP OF the animation. The cooldown becoming useless eliminates any need for an ATB bar. Even in a hypothetical situation the ATB bar would just be there for show. It's not much ATB by then.

 

[StuBurns]

If ATBs allowed cancels then the concept of ATB becomes worthless. ATB limits how many attacks you can take and how often through a cooldown bar. Once you start being able to cancel the ATB bar the battle system doesn't become any different from any action game. Canceling the ATB bar means you're no longer restricted by the cooldown and now you're restricted ONLY by the animation, same as any game. ATB has the cooldown ON TOP OF the animation. The cooldown becoming useless eliminates any need for an ATB bar. Even in a hypothetical situation the ATB bar would just be there for show. It's not much ATB by then.

You're suggesting the ATB would auto-fill when a cancel is performed? I don't see why that would be the case. Cancels in regards to post-collision wouldn't be possible of course. You don't know it's possible in Versus either.

 

[Bel Marduk]

You're suggesting the ATB would auto-fill when a cancel is performed? I don't see why that would be the case. Cancels in regards to post-collision wouldn't be possible of course. You don't know it's possible in Versus either.

I'm saying the way ATB is, cancels can't work because you can't just cancel the cooldown bar. The cooldown bar is ATB. Your attacks can only be done once the bar is filled, not before.

Hypothetically there could be an item that allows you to make moves while disregarding the cooldown...but that just means that you're temporarily getting rid of ATB entirely. That goes out of the confines put down by the rules of ATB.

Disregarding cancels, Versus would still have to be changed to fit in an ATB bar. With the battle system now, you can't just plug it in because it won't work unless you put a cooldown for the recovery...which is pointless unless you, again, change the battle system because otherwise it'd just be there for show. ATB is NEVER just there for show.

 

[StuBurns]

I'm saying the way ATB is, cancels can't work because you can't just cancel the cooldown bar. The cooldown bar is ATB. Your attacks can only be done once the bar is filled, not before.

Hypothetically there could be an item that allows you to make moves while disregarding the cooldown...but that just means that you're temporarily getting rid of ATB entirely. That goes out of the confines put down by the rules of ATB.

Disregarding cancels, Versus would still have to be changed to fit in an ATB bar. With the battle system now, you can't just plug it in because it won't work unless you put a cooldown for the recovery...which is pointless unless you, again, change the battle system because otherwise it'd just be there for show.

Surely that would require all actions to be part of ATB, which would be illogical, movement couldn't come at an ATB cost with direct character control. You would need to be able to dodge/roll/jump etc for 'free'.

Although this is completely besides the point. I don't know if you're choosing to ignore the point or not though, and ultimately I don't care. I disagree. I believe ATB only exists to add time concern to a Command-RPG, and 'character action' is the final conclusion of that.

 

[Ether_Snake]

http://andriasang.com/comy9v/

Nomura says that he recently did a walkthrough of the full world map. He also did a check on the game's dungeons and the side paths in the game's towns. He was impressed with how expansive everything is.

When Square Enix announced the development of its "Luminous" next generation engine, some very cruel people joked that maybe Versus would be updated to use it. Actually, the game does use the lightning technology from Luminous, Nomura reveals. However, the game also uses a game specific engine that's specialized for action.

With Versus, Nomura promises a Final Fantasy never.

Fixed

 

[Bel Marduk]

Surely that would require all actions to be part of ATB, which would be illogical, movement couldn't come at an ATB cost with direct character control. You would need to be able to dodge/roll/jump etc for 'free'.

Well movement is separate and doesn't require ATB just like in FF XII. However, abilities/attacks and items use ATB and you're only allowed one ability/attack or item per cooldown.

If we're talking about a Tales game for example, you couldn't, say, do a 3 hit combo then go into an arte then another arte directly after in only one cooldown. Those are different attacks and require more than one cooldown if you were to do them all. The battle system would have to be changed dramatically. But say you were able to do the 3 hit combo, arte, then another arte in just one cooldown...they could do it (it hasn't been done before though) but it's very pointless.

Edit:

Although this is completely besides the point. I don't know if you're choosing to ignore the point or not though, and ultimately I don't care. I disagree. I believe ATB only exists to add time concern to a Command-RPG, and 'character action' is the final conclusion of that.

ATB does add a time concern. But you have to wait for a cooldown to attack or use an item again, on top of the animation which takes up time separate from the cooldown. Not just one.

 

[StuBurns]

ATB does add a time concern. But you have to wait for a cooldown to attack or use an item again, on top of the animation which takes up time separate from the cooldown. Not just one.

Okay, I will say this once more, and I don't care if you misread it, and go on page long completely unrelated diatribe.

ATB lasts beyond the animation because the ATB is slow. If the ATB were to be the exact length of the animation, there would be no functional difference, at this point there is also no need to show an ATB bar.

FFXIII has cancels, you can line up three attacks, you can cancel out, and your ATB bar is not reset. FFXIII also has different ATB costs for different actions, as you would require in an Action RPG with an ATB bar. FFXIII is also too fast for individual character inputs which is why you control only one character and macro manage the team with scripting.

FFXIII is a game that pushed the ATB concept essentially beyond the breaking point. That is the end result of wanting to make the game as fast and engaging as possible, while still remaining command based. Versus is the same intent, fast engaging combat, without the hindrance of holding on to this traditional command based input. They could add an ATB counter, but it's useless (as you so rightly stated), because it would adhere to the length of animations.

To me they are both examples of continuing the ATB concept beyond a traditional Command-RPG interface. I personally really enjoyed FFXIII's combat, although I seem to be in the minority, and of course I haven't played Versus, so it could be shit. But I see them as both perfectly valid continuations of the Final Fantasy combat system. If you don't, that's fine, you're certainly not alone.

 

[Eccocid]

Maybe FF XIV's PS3 version is avoiding rebranding of Versus to FF XV?

Let's say SE decided to release PS3 version of FF XIV next year, like in Fall and then decided to release Versus as FF XV in winter 2012 or early 2013.. It will be like 2 numbered FF games in less than a year on same console.

 

[Bel Marduk]

*Large post*

Oh, I never said I don't care for advances in ATB to make a better battle system. Why wouldn't I. I was just arguing the whole time that I don't believe ATB would work with Versus the way it is now while you kept saying if ATB was added, would you still consider it ATB. And I kept saying it wouldn't work with Versus unless the battle system was changed because I don't believe you can just shoehorn it in. That's all.

Anyway, no more point in continuing this...

 

[makingmusic476]

It's strange to think that Nintendo will have developed and released an entire new console in less time than it's taken SE to develop this game.

I really can't wait to play it, however. I've loved everything I've heard about it so far.

 

[StuBurns]

Oh, I never said I don't care for advances in ATB to make a better battle system. Why wouldn't I. I was just arguing the whole time that I don't believe ATB would work with Versus the way it is now while you kept saying if ATB was added, would you still consider it ATB. And I kept saying it wouldn't work with Versus unless the battle system was changed because I don't believe you can just shoehorn it in. That's all.

Anyway, no more point in continuing this...

And I think I never really got my point across correctly, I still don't think I have, it was never about 'adding' ATB to Versus, just that I think if you plotted the progression of FF's ATB system, with frequent increases in speed, there are basically two outcomes, FFXIII's rigid ATB compromising the player input, or Versus' rigid player input compromising ATB.

But yes, on to bigger and better things.

I'd actually be pretty interested in a more detailed breakdown of the Versus team, ducky highlighted two not so flattering portfolios, but anyone have anymore?

 

[Reveirg]

The Jump Festa dates have been set, December 17 and 18.

In my opinion, this makes it even more doubtful that we'll see Versus XIII in action, since this is 1/2 days after XIII-2's release...

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I don't see why they can't show it to some degree at that time. I have reasonable hope.

 

[BlueWord]

The Jump Festa dates have been set, December 17 and 18.

In my opinion, this makes it even more doubtful that we'll see Versus XIII in action, since this is 1/2 days after XIII-2's release...

Don't really see how that could be a big factor in withholding Versus info. With the FFXIII-2 out the gates, there's really nothing holding them back from showing it.

That said, I'll never bet on Versus showing up anywhere. We'll see it when we see it, I guess.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

The Jump Festa dates have been set, December 17 and 18.

In my opinion, this makes it even more doubtful that we'll see Versus XIII in action, since this is 1/2 days after XIII-2's release...

They have to show Versus XIII, what else would they show? X HD? XIV PS3? In terms of importance, VXIII should be next to get the media blowouts.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

The Jump Festa dates have been set, December 17 and 18.

In my opinion, this makes it even more doubtful that we'll see Versus XIII in action, since this is 1/2 days after XIII-2's release...

Huh? It makes it more probable it'll be shown, considering XIII-2 would have been released by then

 

[Reveirg]

Huh? It makes it more probable it'll be shown, considering XIII-2 would have been released by then

My understanding was that they didn't want to show Versus XIII to let all the hype go towards XIII-2. Following that logic, I thought it wouldn't make sense to show the game the very same days XIII-2 is supposed to be selling the most.

Hopefully you guys are right though, I really hope so!

 

[H_Prestige]

Huh? It makes it more probable it'll be shown, considering XIII-2 would have been released by then

Not everyone will buy XIII-2 on day 1. SE is still going to be advertising the title for a while after it is released.

Anyway, even if that isn't true, I don't expect to see Versus there. This is SE we're talking about. Expect disappointment.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

My understanding was that they didn't want to show Versus XIII to let all the hype go towards XIII-2. Following that logic, I thought it wouldn't make sense to show the game the very same days XIII-2 is supposed to be selling the most.

Hopefully you guys are right though, I really hope so!

So what, you think S-E's going to show XIII-2 again even though it'll already have been released?

 

[MechaX]

So what, you think S-E's going to show XIII-2 again even though it'll already have been released?

Actually, that's pretty in line with how most companies do things with closely scheduled conferences.

 

[duckroll]

So what, you think S-E's going to show XIII-2 again even though it'll already have been released?

No, they're going to push KH3D and Theatrhythm heavily instead. Maybe even Bravely Default. Jump Festa is an event for younger audiences after all.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

No, they're going to push KH3D and Theatrhythm heavily instead. Maybe even Bravely Default. Jump Festa is an event for younger audiences after all.

That makes sense.

 

[Beth Cyra]

No, they're going to push KH3D and Theatrhythm heavily instead. Maybe even Bravely Default. Jump Festa is an event for younger audiences after all.

I would be okay with this. I want to see more 3D and Theatrhythm.

 

[Lesiroth]

No, they're going to push KH3D and Theatrhythm heavily instead. Maybe even Bravely Default. Jump Festa is an event for younger audiences after all.

Can't wait to see more Neku.

 

[Apath]

So what are the chances we'll get this before the next gen starts?

 

[RustyNails]

They have to show Versus XIII, what else would they show? X HD? XIV PS3? In terms of importance, VXIII should be next to get the media blowouts.

They will use the timing of Jump fiesta to advertise FF XIII-2 like crazy. There's not gonna be vs 13 talk until maybe a month or two later. Remember, we got the last 6 minute vs 13 demo trailer during January of this year. I'm expecting something similar.

 

[Mengetsu]

A Final Fantasy Versus XIII job wanted ad lists PS3 package title experience as necessary, "or otherwise an Xbox 360 package title.

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/recruit/career/job/game/planner.html

Source: http://kotaku.com/5844565/square-en...-360-experience-for-final-fantasy-versus-xiii

Can anyone see this as it being made for 360 as well because they would like experienced people who worked on 360 as well? I mean XIII did it..

 

[Famassu]

A Final Fantasy Versus XIII job wanted ad lists PS3 package title experience as necessary, "or otherwise an Xbox 360 package title.

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/recruit/career/job/game/planner.html

Source: http://kotaku.com/5844565/square-en...-360-experience-for-final-fantasy-versus-xiii

Can anyone see this as it being made for 360 as well because they would like experienced people who worked on 360 as well? I mean XIII did it..

Experience in developing for either HD console can be good even when developing only for one of them, I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Seda]

A Final Fantasy Versus XIII job wanted ad lists PS3 package title experience as necessary, "or otherwise an Xbox 360 package title.

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/recruit/career/job/game/planner.html

Source: http://kotaku.com/5844565/square-en...-360-experience-for-final-fantasy-versus-xiii

Can anyone see this as it being made for 360 as well because they would like experienced people who worked on 360 as well? I mean XIII did it..

Hard to draw anything from that, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was released for 360 as well.

 

[Rahxephon91]

The wording actually makes it sound completely different then what Kotaku is aiming for. It sounds like, We really want someone who has worked on a PS3 title as this is a PS3 title, but since this is also an HD title, if you have worked on the other HD platfourm AKA the Xbox then sure we may take you.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Versus was released on the xbox. I see no reason for it not to be.

 

[Zoe]

That is either very very old (already had a long thread about it), or the job has been reposted.

Edit: and that's a level design position, so I'd imagine platform doesn't matter too much

 

[sublimit]

It's always quite possible to port it to 360 but this ad probably has nothing to do with it.They just want someone with experience in HD development regardless of specific platform.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Sony Bend had a job listing where they were asking for people with PS3 and 360 development experience. That was so those people could join the Uncharted Vita dev staff.

 

[duckroll]

That is either very very old (already had a long thread about it), or the job has been reposted.

Edit: and that's a level design position, so I'd imagine platform doesn't matter too much

It's being reposted, but we already had a thread for it the first time!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410576

Edit: Actually, I don't even think the job is being reposted, I think it simply hasn't been fully filled, since the Battle Planner position is gone.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Experience in developing for either HD console can be good even when developing only for one of them, I wouldn't read too much into it.

Yeah, you're right; even ND was looking for someone with PS3/PC/Xbox 360 production experience.

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/Ziriux_photos/NaughtDogJob.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if Versus ends up on the 360 though. The install base is too high for it be ignored.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

if they wanted someone specifically for a 360 position they would want experience directly with it or expertise in it. if it just casually mentions 360 it's not noteworthy.

i wouldn't be surprised if it came to 360, but i don't believe this has anything to do with that, if so.

 

[sublimit]

Kinda curious question:
Why Versus was announced as PS3 exclusive in the first place?I don't think Sony ever paid for exclusivity so it doesn't makes sense for SE to limit their market.I know Nomura likes Sony but he's not the one who makes these decisions right?