First post wins.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Was Dr. Halsey justified, ultimately, in creating the Spartan-II program in Halo?
- Thread starter T'Zariah
- Start date
First post wins.
If you forget why the program was created in the first place... which had nothing do with saving humankind.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Of course she is! Fucking Travis and her bullshit. Not only are the heads of ONI huge hypocrites, but functionally retarded as well. Oh, the aliens who helped save our race in addition to the MC? Instead of allying and having safety in numbers let's try and fuck them over! Forget the fact that Infinity is the only ship cable of truly defending a Sangheili counter attack should we be found out and ultimately betray the arbiter who prevented our home world from being glassed by Rtas. Yeah and let's also arm a splinter faction who ultimately want to continue the war. Because there are hundreds of examples in human history where that goes well.
Are you Fucking kidding me?!
Are you Fucking kidding me?!
Ragnarok Flames
Banned
Karen Traviss is garbage and pushes her own agenda in the books. But 343 has to sign off on what is written.
Interrobang
Member
Just to play devil's advocate here, considering the covenant threat wasn't obvious during the start of the child abductions... couldn't they have just made the Spartan program an optional section of UNSC? Like new-age Marines? I think, even considering the extreme nature of the program, some ambitious soldiers would've still signed up for it. Especially if the propaganda was right.
The Spartan I, or as it was originally called, ORION program was this. It didn't work, the augmentations were not very good and it had other complications.
EDIT Spartan IV program is also volunteer program but then the kinks have been worked out from the augmentations and armor.
Interrobang
Member
So Spartan IV was essentially Halsey's idea without all the moral abominations?
Master Chief sells games. Original, much more interesting characters do not.
Spartan IIs are far more powerful, no? Also because of their young age training.... far better soldiers.
GraveHorizon
poop meter feature creep
Exactly, just punish the heads of the SPARTAN-III program first.
Blue Ninja
Member
No, because ORION wasn't Halsey's idea. She worked from ORION, and later renamed them the SPARTAN-I's out of respect. SPARTAN-I isn't their official name.
It was Halsey's idea to get kids into the mix. Far easier to indoctrinate.
TacticalFox88
Banned
And the problem with the IVs is that even though they are less "controversial" they're still massively inferior to the IIs. Blue Team could probably do by themselves what would take the entire Spartan IV regiment assigned on Infinity.
Then put him in like 1 or 2 levels and just slowly move him to the side.
Interrobang
Member
Right, I forgot the child aspect is what made them more powerful. I don't think she was justified only because they weren't aware of the imminent threat yet.
stuminus3
Banned
I'm on to you, Hideo.
I never got that sense out of Halo 4. Is there some other material or something that goes into this?
Sure, pretty much all the Halo books.
Halo 4's biggest issue, story-wise, is that it requires understanding the Halo expanded universe :/
No, I mean about 343 screwing up the character. I've read Nylund's books.
PF you played yourself and a custom spartan in Reach, how was he interesting? He was a blank page.
Chief has a story in the expanded fiction and they could show more characeristics if they would bring back the other Spartan 2s
Edit: The problem is she gets all the blame, like no one else had to grant the mission
Opinionatedfish
Member
She had to think like a monster to defeat the monsters, even though the monsters weren't incredibly defined at the moment. So, the result of the action is justified, but the action is bad and should still be punished.. albeit.. not that harshly since it saved everyone.
Although her experiments would be JUST FINE if the people had been volunteered for the program and experiments. Kidnapping bad. Volunteerism good.
Although her experiments would be JUST FINE if the people had been volunteered for the program and experiments. Kidnapping bad. Volunteerism good.
WhiskeyKnight
Member
More importantly -- do you guys think Master Chief is a virgin?
Enosh
Member
well justifies is kinda strong word ^^
they just got lucky as fuck that they approved it otherwise the covenant would fuck their shit up even more than they did
so yes, it's good humanity had the Spartans
but let's not pretend that they were designed for this, they just kinda fell into that role once the invasion began
edit:
then again it's not like the separatist were the best either, frequent terror attacks, didn't they nuke one city or something etc
they just got lucky as fuck that they approved it otherwise the covenant would fuck their shit up even more than they did
so yes, it's good humanity had the Spartans
but let's not pretend that they were designed for this, they just kinda fell into that role once the invasion began
edit:
then again it's not like the separatist were the best either, frequent terror attacks, didn't they nuke one city or something etc
TacticalFox88
Banned
Her being punished for the Spartan-IIs, is the galactic equivalent of the US government imprisoning the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project.
Oh no! They now know my super secret project is halo 5.
Rex Griswold
Member
Two theories; Pre-augmentation they were a bunch of teenagers living together. Augmentation included a modification to the thyroid which potentially suppressed any sex drive. So the answers are "maybe not" or "doesn't care".
Troll posts aside, I'm surprised that no one has considered that ONI is revealing all the nasty little details about the Spartan program to not only keep the heat off themselves, but to smear Halsey in the process of dumping all the ethical heat on her. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Admiral Parangosky have a personal vendetta agaisnt Halsey?
Anyway, on topic, usually I'm one for the end justifying the means, but the end in this case was not "stop the Covenant", it was "stop the rebels". So, the initial intention was not justified at all. However, it all looks like an act of sainthood next to the Spartan III program. Kidnap kids with the ultimate goal of throwing them at a problem till it goes away, regardless of casualty rate? Come on now.
Iorv3th
Member
Spartan 4's are weaker than the Spartan 2's. Spartan 2's are bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, braver than any generation of Spartans. They are the cream of the crop chosen as the best of the human race to be fighters.
Are the books really canon? I know this hasn't anything to do with the halo franchise, but every time I say that Starcraft has books as canon people say that Starcraft 1/2 is the only canon and not the books
TacticalFox88
Banned
All the more hilarious how Parangosky trying to have the moral high-ground.
Rex Griswold
Member
Indeed. But to be able to completely ruin the reputation of someone you can't stand, be able to do something far worse, and get away with it? I'm sure it's a delightful feeling from her standpoint.
It's been a while since I read the books, so if I'm missing anything, please, correct me.
Halo books are cannon. The first piece of halo fiction was a book that lead directly into the opening of Halo 1. The first game doesn't really go out of its way to explain the covenant or who Master Chief is because the first book does that. If you read the book before playing H1 you would probably view master chief differently and how he reacts to certain characters(Keyes, Halsey, Keyes and Halsey's daughter, Johnson, Cortana) would hit you differently.
Enosh
Member
well canon works differently depending on the IP and what the company says
star wars for instance has a policy that if there is any conflict what GL did overrides anything else
in addition GL said that only his stuff is the real SW universe, the rets are just stuff based off on it or something like that
warhammer40k has a "everything with the 40k logo is canon, deal with it yourself"
idk exactly how halo and SC stuff works
Caayn
Member
Halo books are canon. Joseph Staten once said that everything is canon in the following order:
1. The games
2. Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.)
3. Marketing and PR materials
Here's a post from a user who did some research on this subject.
Edit: The question is will 343i follow the rules that our laid out by Bungie?
The bottom line.
Karen Traviss/343 fucked up by attacking the same shit from a new angle. If they wanted readers to more easily accept the scrutiny of Halsey, they should have written more canon on the Spartan II program that is both interesting and morally questionable. That's what you build your attack on Halsey on. New shit.
You're not going to sway many fans to your cause after every book and game in the Halo universe prior to the Kilo Five trilogy is filled to the brim with awesome shit Spartans do.
The fucked up side of the Spartan II project and Halsey's actions are more capably shown in a single short story from Evolutions than in how ever many words Traviss put on paper.
Computer
Member
The opining cut scene in Halo 4 was the best part of the game. I really hope that the Halo TV show or whatever it is starts from the very beginning of the Halo universe. Explain everything in detail. Otherwise there will be a lot of people that have no clue what is going on. As in the Halo 4 story.
She stole kids and replaced them with dying clones.
Already (kinda) happened in Halo 2. It was not received well
NeOak
Member
Basically, the moment the Halo Bible left Bungie's care for 343's, they added "controversial" issues to try and make a storm in a cup of water.
When I played Spartan OPs and saw how they portray her, I was aghast.
Karen Travis was fine for Arthas, but bring back Nylund to Halo. Halsey's journal was sooo good because it was Nylund working on it.
When I played Spartan OPs and saw how they portray her, I was aghast.
Karen Travis was fine for Arthas, but bring back Nylund to Halo. Halsey's journal was sooo good because it was Nylund working on it.
Monocle
Member
That subjectivity didn't come through for me, and I try to be a careful reader when it comes to series I really care about. Maybe the lack of contrasting perspectives is the reason. I will have to revisit the newer books to say for sure, but I don't remember any character expressing a positive or neutral view of Halsey's actions. The negativity was at such a high and sustained pitch that it looked as though the omniscient narrator, not just Halsey's rivals, was vilifying her.
Then there's the whole Spartan Ops storyline which extended Halsey's gauntlet of abuse so that it seemed like the universe itself was punishing her for being an awful person, in the sense that her personal misfortune and the hostility of the company she was forced to keep were turned up to 11. (Granted, I saw the seeds of an interesting story in the finale.)
I want Halsey back, the Halsey I enjoyed so much in Nylund's books. I'd like to believe your crew have a more satisfying direction for her character arc in store, but Traviss and Halo 4 really knocked me for a loop, and the proof is always in the pudding. Still crossing my fingers though. Thanks for the response in any case.
"God's Beard!"
Member
No sense crying over spilt milk.
Already (kinda) happened in Halo 2. It was not received well
That because they did that with the alien. Nobody wants to be that guy, but your own spartan? HELL YES, all you got to do is stick chief in a few levels, maybe he even teaches you some things.
Honestly I think folks unhappy with that aspect/perspective and angle are going to enjoy what's coming more than most. It's a thing that is designed to provoke a response but it has an arc that I suspect will be satisfying.
well thats no wonder since IIs were trained since they were 6 while 4s are just voluntary soldiers who took the augmentations without risks