You keep saying 'save' like the kid was in imminent danger
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What type of person leaves their child in a car?
- Thread starter Fenderputty
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You keep saying 'save' like the kid was in imminent danger
Marty Chinn
Member
So the door shuts, do you instantly break the window without taking another thought about it?
You're acting like having a window temporarily fixed isn't 4 strips of duct tape and a trashbag away. Lose her car? It's a window.
Break that fucking window and get your kid. End of story. There isn't a defense for it.
Is this what happened here? No. She decided to wait for police. What did she think the police were going to do? Magically open her car?
My kid is locked in a car on a hot day and I can't get to them in less than 10 minutes it's getting broken. Unless I can find someone to jimmy it open within that time limit.
Marty Chinn
Member
4 strips of duct tape and a trash bag takes a split second to tear open for someone to steal the car. It leaves it vulnerable and exposed.
She waited because she probably felt they wouldn't take long. How many times have we seen on tv someone slipping a tool in to open the lock?
You're acting like being in a hot car for 10 minutes is going to kill a kid
No, but that is what Featheredkitten is suggesting is the only reasonable approach. In fact, she waited for the police and the kid is just fine. There are plenty of ways of getting into a locked car (which police often use in these cases) other than breaking a window. You even attest to that below.
Nothing in the OP says more than 10 minutes passed. In fact, according to the story, she called the police because she was not willing to wait the 30 minutes it would take a locksmith
Featheredkitten
Banned
Thank you, someone who gets it.
Edit: I'm just going to leave this right here for reading. Hyperthermia Deaths of
Children in Vehicles
Car thieves don't walk around hoping lady luck guides them to a car with a broken window.
Didn't someone just say it takes 15 minutes for a car to reach 140+ temperatures when it's 105 out? I'm basing my argument partly by that. I sat in a car today in 90 degree temp for about 10 minutes. It wasn't pleasant. I'm not a baby though.
We know how the situation turned it. It turned out fine. A lot of people just hope a situation turns out fine. If I'm in a situation where I'm unsure about the outcome, whether it be waiting for police or a locksmith, I'm going to take the quickest route to surety. Knowing the outcome here, that the police did what 911 told her to do anyways, means we know she could have gotten her kid out sooner.
goldenpp72
Member
I don't think anyone said otherwise, 10 minutes is more than enough time for cops to get there and open the door without smashing the window, unless the police force is really shit. Hell my work place has a security force that can open doors without smashing car windows and it takes them no time at all.
Based on what I've been told by some cops, you might be surprised how ease of access can be the difference between deciding to try to steal the car or leaving it be, kind of like if you leave 10 bucks on the table vs keeping it in your pocket.
I guess I can accept that. It depends on where she works/parks really.
When I was 4 my mom left me in the car in our houses driveway with the car on because she had to run inside to get something she forgot.
I hopped in the driver seat and put the car in neutral or reverse and rolled down the busy street we lived on and hit a bush on someones yard like 7 houses down.
My parents thought someone had snatched me up so my mom called 911 and my dad went driving off in the opposite direction.
Suckers.
I was a pretty cool little kid if I do say so myself.
I hopped in the driver seat and put the car in neutral or reverse and rolled down the busy street we lived on and hit a bush on someones yard like 7 houses down.
My parents thought someone had snatched me up so my mom called 911 and my dad went driving off in the opposite direction.
Suckers.
I was a pretty cool little kid if I do say so myself.
When I was like 2 I walked to the park by myself while my mom slept off her night shift.
Needless to say when the nice couple who found me asked where I lived and I took them there my mom was a bundle of nerves and the luckiest woman in the world that day.
Marty Chinn
Member
As others have pointed out, ease of access makes a huge difference. So do you think it's a valid concern that she might get her car stolen over this at least from her point of view at the given moment? A car which would affect not only her income but ability to take care of h baby.
No you wouldn't. You just said you would wait 10 minutes. I wouldn't wait a second past 5 minutes so you'd be a terrible parent according to Featheredkitten by his criteria of the events that transcribed. Why would you wait so long? Now think about that, 10 minutes seemed acceptable to you. Why isn't it at least understandable that the mother here waited what she felt was a reasonable time frame to deal with the situation?
No he didn't get it because according to you he should not have even waited 10 minutes. He should have busted that window open right away. Anything else is unacceptable.
Featheredkitten
Banned
First of all, i'm a female, so use the proper pronoun in the future, please. Secondly, why are you trying to make me out to be an extremist? You seem to be reading way more into my posts than i intended, i said I would break the window, i didn't comment, or condemn anyone else's responses in this thread.
Thirdly: please read the link i posted in one of my previous comments, and you would see why i wouldn't wait for the police, especially on a 105 degree day. Not that, and i want to make this clear, so that you don't yet again try to make me into something i'm not, i'm only saying what i personally would do.
But, yes, i am judging this woman for thinking about her car window over her child, that, at least, is correct.
Marty Chinn
Member
Because your lack of at least understanding how the situation could have played out makes it seem like you have a narrow view. If you don't break it immediately, then the time you allow before you break it starts to become arbitrary based on what the individual deems to be within what they feel is a reasonable range of time of the baby being safe.
That's fine and all, and I'm saying I'd probably have done the same as you. That's not the issue I'm taking with. I'm taking an issue with your lack of understanding even though it's not the same choice you would make. It's not the choice I would make, but I certainly understand it.
And this where you're being closed/narrow minded. She's not picking the window over the child. She's trying to pick both. Do you not see how she's weighing the entire situation? It's easy enough to say just break the window, but breaking that window could have huge ramifications on her life as well. Breaking that window already has been said to be a financial hardship. A financial hardship that could prevent her from feeding her baby for all we know. Why break the window so quick when she felt she could find a solution that would save the baby and the window which in turn means she could still continue to feed the baby? Or like I said even worse, what if breaking the window puts her car at risk from being stolen because she can't fix it right away. Now she gets her car stolen, can't go to her job and gets fired. Where does that get them now without being able to pay the bills let alone feed her baby? This is not a black and white issue of picking the window over the baby. It's a number of factors that can have a huge impact based on the choices she makes and she's likely trying to find the best solution rather than the quick to judgement one. Like I said, might not be the choice I would make, but I certainly understand how that situation can play out.
Devolution
Member
My parents baby proofed a bunch of shit that I was too clever for. Man that always stuck in their craw. Like those cabinet latches. I figured out right away just to pound my fist on the latch. Oh and I'd take my play chairs into the kitchen in order to get myself a cup from the cabinet. Damn near gave my mom a stroke when she saw me on top of the kitchen counter. "I'm just getting a cup mom, what?" Kids are just too smart for their own good sometimes.
Featheredkitten
Banned
far be it for me to be close minded, but it sure seems like you're contradicting yourself in the space of about three sentences, never seen that before, bravo.
Well, i'm sorry i'm close minded, but i would not sit there and think about pros and cons of letting my child die (i see you still haven't read my link, but whatever). I love him too much.
Marty Chinn
Member
It's not a contradiction at all. You can easily make your choices in life but understand how other people make theirs. I chose to be a video game developer, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why someone would choose the career path of a doctor because I decided not to. I'm in a position where breaking the window isn't going to ruin me financially but I can understand someone who is in a financial situation who has a lot of stress and pressures in her life to at least factor that in before making a rash decision that could ruin her life even more. That's being open minded where I look at and understand the choices someone else makes despite me either making a different choice or having a difference of opinion.
Featheredkitten
Banned
Oh i didn't know that choosing where to save your child's life or not was the same as looking at whether to be a doctor or a video game developer, i can totally see the parallels now. You're definitely right! Losing the life your offspring is a much less financial hardship then losing the use of your car! And absolutely the same emotionally. Or even paying for the cost of an ambulance and a hospital stay for your child! I'm so glad you have such a cool head that you can calculate all these things.
She's a shitty excuse for a parent. It's a shame she ever had a kid.
Marty Chinn
Member
It was an example of disagreeing with a choice but understanding a decision. You're taking things literally rather than seeing the real correlation. The second you choose not to break the window the door closes, you are now arbitrarily making your own judgement call of what the safety window is regardless if it is right or wrong. If you decide 5 minutes is long enough, then someone who thinks 4 minutes would think you're wrong. Are you wrong? Or is it more understanding to say I wouldn't have done it but I could see how someone would come to that conclusion and understand how events played out even if the decision was different? Just because you disagree with the choice doesn't mean you can't understand the decision. It is not a contradiction to do so.
again, you're creating a false dichotomy. You can save your kid and not immediately panic and smash the window yourself instead of evaluating your options. In fact, that is exactly what happened in this case. As far as I know, the child is not dead or in a hospital
Featheredkitten
Banned
please, before we go any further in this discussion. read this Hyperthermia Deaths of
Children in Vehicles And then try and tell me it's an arbitrary decision.
Children in Vehicles And then try and tell me it's an arbitrary decision.
A flashlight/baton probably.
Well, I think the point of the discussion isn't that she made an unreasonable call, just that her decision placed her child in unnecessary danger. She could have found a way to break the window herself and saved her child from whatever potential physical damage that staying in a hot car for a period of time would have caused.
Also the cops just ended up breaking the window anyway, which shows that there is a time limiting factor to saving a child in a car.
says to call the police. I don't see anything about panicing and breaking windows
Marty Chinn
Member
Why would you wait five minutes? Why not four? Why not three? Why not the second the door shut? The point is you likely waited what you felt was a reasonable time frame that the baby was still safe. I'm saying I think it's understandable that from her view she tried to find a solution to save both the window and the baby while she still felt the baby was safe. We don't know what her threshold was but not wanting to break the window the second the door shut to get the baby out because she knows she's under financial hardship isn't totally unreasonable.
Featheredkitten
Banned
The point of the link was to show how quickly the heat can rise in a vehicle on a hot day. Did you skim?
It kind of is when you put it in that context. You're actively comparing a window to a child and saying 'Meh, the kid can wait 10 minutes while I try to figure out how to jimmy this lock.' Her honest mistake could only conclude in one thing (as shown by the police breaking the window anyway) so there was no point in waiting. Might as well have picked up a rock right then and smashed the window so as to save everyone time.
Was her decision unreasonable? No.
Was is the wrong decision? Yes.
arts&crafts
Member
On the radio here in Alberta they say to call 911 if you see a dog or child in a locked car on a hot day. I was contemplating doing it yesterday on this little chihuahua, just because the owner is obviously a terrible person for owning a chihuahua.
I read the entire study (which, btw, does not pretend to know how long is safe for a kid to be in a car which we would not have enough information to quantify regardless). Do you know when else the kid is in a hot car for a few minutes? When you get in it. The point of the fact sheet is just that you should not leave your kid in the car unattended while you do things. That isn't what happened in this case
Oh, and the study points out that the fact that it was 105 degrees outside is completely irrelevant. Temperature inside the car increases at the same rate
I know I already said it but I feel like repeating it: I'm surprised locking your keys in your car is still possible, though I am under the impression that virtually all vehicles came with power locks these days, except maybe in miser trim.
Any car with power locks should make this impossible by 1) Preventing the driver's door from remaining locked after being opened if locked from the inside and 2) requiring all doors to be closed to lock the entire car using the remote or key. Seems so incredibly simple that this feature has been present since at least the 80s in some vehicles, yet automakers have somehow allowed this issue to persist?
Any car with power locks should make this impossible by 1) Preventing the driver's door from remaining locked after being opened if locked from the inside and 2) requiring all doors to be closed to lock the entire car using the remote or key. Seems so incredibly simple that this feature has been present since at least the 80s in some vehicles, yet automakers have somehow allowed this issue to persist?
Ninja Scooter
Member
I would have broken the window...and then broken her face!
Marty Chinn
Member
This is all I'm getting at. It's not the choice I would have made but I can understand it and don't think it was unreasonable. The second you decide not to break the window when the door is shut means you're looking for alternatives before resorting to it. At that point it's everyone's individual arbitrary time frame of what they deem is safe. One could feel one minute is long enough, someone else said five. Both are trying to resolve it without breaking the window instantly which is really no different than the woman in this story. We don't even know what her threshold was.
What if the door was locked, key fob on the outside, went to get the stroller, key fob fell into the trunk while getting the stroller and she shut the trunk?
Squirrel Killer
Member
I don't want to be Bad Parent Defense Force, but is it at all possible that your wife's email didn't fully convey the woman's thought process? For instance, could the woman have thought:
a) break window - immediate but $$$ repair bill - Too expensive and insurance won't cover
b) AAA locksmith - free but 30+ minutes - Too long
c) call cops to use a slimjim to open the door - comparatively quick response time, free - slight risk of warning/citation, but she can watch kid for signs of distress and break the window if need be
I mean sure, if the woman was just callous bitch who refused to spend the money to fix the window to save her child's life then screw her. Rake her over the coals. But if she's thinking, "I'm here and I can always break the window if need be, but first, let's see if the cops can open the door half as quick as a common car thief and spare the rent money" then maybe a little understanding is in order.
I don't get this, you mean she had to dial "9" to get an outside line? I've never heard of a phone system so complicated that it added much appreciable time to dial out. Sure the kid is in a hot car, but it's not like it's on fire.Fenderputty said:
freenudemacusers
Member
hmm, i've left my son in the car to grab stuff like atm $ or whatever, maybe a couple of times? never more than a few steps away.
now, 30 minutes on a hot day? i would have broken that window. I'm surprised a cop would not be able to respond faster with a door wedge.
and it's pretty easy to drop keys and what not when you're grabbing a wiggling kid. shit happens.
now, 30 minutes on a hot day? i would have broken that window. I'm surprised a cop would not be able to respond faster with a door wedge.
and it's pretty easy to drop keys and what not when you're grabbing a wiggling kid. shit happens.
Marty Chinn
Member
It wasn't 30 min. 30 min was the quote by AAA. Cops arrived sooner.
30 minutes is how long AAA would have taken. She called the police instead and did not wait 30 minutes
freenudemacusers
Member
woops, guess that's what i get for skimming the op heh.
I read that article several years ago, and it's stuck with me ever since. It's an absolutely heartbreaking read, and a great piece of journalism.
Ok that should only be applicable to new sedans/coupes. A hatchback/minivan/suv/cuv wouldn't have this problem as the rear hatch would be just like another door in that you couldn't accidentally lock it with your keys inside given my rules above. You're right, it's still possible to lock your keys in your car, but frankly it would be really hard to pull off versus just locking your car from the inside and closing your doors with your keys inside.
not all cars with automatic locks have remote key fobs. on many new cars, the doors won't lock with the fob inside and you can't close the trunk. So the problem is solved, but it will take awhile for everyone to catch up
Marty Chinn
Member
Actually, thinking about it further, I think it's quite easily to toggle the lock on the door and shut it and have it be locked. I can do that with two of my cars here, one is a 2002, the other is a 2005. My current car won't let me do it but it has proximity sensors to detect the location of he fob.
I don't feel it's a good idea to wait until the child is showing physical symptoms from exposure to the heat to make a move.
Don't be pedantic, I wouldn't be using a stop-watch, I'd spend a few minutes testing all the doors, checking to see how quickly I could get my spare key and failing that I'd smash the window and then drive it straight to the smash repairers.
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