Support NeoGAF

[matrix-cat]

Because Kojima's whole team was against ending the series on a sad note (it was originally supposed to end with Snake and Otacon being executed for war crimes...) and Kojima caved.

I said this in that headcanon thread a while back, but I like to think MGS4 actually ends with Snake putting the gun in his mouth, the camera panning up, fade to black, gunshot. Everything after that is just a weird life-flashing-before-your-eyes fever dream. I like that better than the idea of Snake and Otacon going down for sinking the tanker. I know that was the whole reason for having 'Here's to You' play over the end credits, but, I don't know, it just seems like kind of an asspull. Otacon's been through enough; he doesn't need to be executed on top of it all (besides, I loved hearing that he's become a ladies man by Revengeance's era so much).

Thinking about Otacon's fucked up life is so hilarious to me. I'm really hoping we'll see baby Hal in MGSV (he'll be 3-4 years old in 1984), because it'll be so ridiculous to watch Huey playing with the toddler who will eventually fuck his wife and drive him to suicide

 

[Banzai]

He WAS possessed, at first. at some point between MGS2 and MGS4 Ocelot switched the arm out but kept playing off the Liquid Persona deal to throw the Patriot AI off his trail.

yeah, I know the reasoning. I just think it would have been much more satisfying (=less non-sensical) if ocelot had kept liquid's arm and they had gone with the explanation that ocelot inherited medium-abilities from his father.

Because he's her son! This seems really obvious to me. Parent-Gaf, help me out!

Now I'm not so sure with that one. I don't think EVA carried Solidus, did she? I think she's only the surrogate mother to Solid and Liquid.

Because Kojima's whole team was against ending the series on a sad note (it was originally supposed to end with Snake and Otacon being executed for war crimes...) and Kojima caved.

Seems to me like Kojima should have stuck to his guns. Not sure if them being executed for war crimes would have made a good ending, but forcing a sorta-happy one didnt, in my opinion.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Whatever the backstory to MG2: Solid Snake was.

Also, chocolate.

 

[Gun Animal]

I said this in that headcanon thread a while back, but I like to think MGS4 actually ends with Snake putting the gun in his mouth, the camera panning up, fade to black, gunshot. Everything after that is just a weird life-flashing-before-your-eyes fever dream. I like that better than the idea of Snake and Otacon going down for sinking the tanker. I know that was the whole reason for having 'Here's to You' play over the end credits, but, I don't know, it just seems like kind of an asspull. Otacon's been through enough; he doesn't need to be executed on top of it all (besides, I loved hearing that he's become a ladies man by Revengeance's era so much).

Thinking about Otacon's fucked up life is so hilarious to me. I'm really hoping we'll see baby Hal in MGSV (he'll be 3-4 years old in 1984), because it'll be so ridiculous to watch Huey playing with the toddler who will eventually fuck his wife and drive him to suicide

MGS4 is much more enjoyable when you accept that the lead writer and director was sick of the franchise and just wanted to tie everything up so he wouldn't have to go near it again. When you accept that the mission statement of MGS4 was to sabotage and destroy the franchise at every level, everything starts making a lot more sense.

 

[leesmapman]

Pretty much the entirety of MGS2, whose bullshit MGS4 had the unfortunate distinction of having to clean up.

And I like MGS2.

This is the most truth in this topic.

 

[Darsis]

Meryl and Jonny.

This was mine too lol

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The series is so full of utter trash it's hard to decide. And I haven't even played the PSP ones! I would say that MGS4 is peak terribleness because it bends over backwards to have a pseudo-scientific explanation for everything in the previous games, and also to tie up every loose end possible. Vamp is nanomachines, son. Ocelot hypnotized himself into believing he was possessed by the ghost of Liquid Snake as a plot to fool a series of artificial intelligences. It winds up being like a bad episode of Star Trek Voyager with the level of technobabble going on. What's especially odd about some of this stuff is that there obviously is real psychic powers and spirits in the series, i.e. psycho mantis (living + dead) and The Sorrow. So why shy away from it? Nobody knows.

Every character is playing a giant game of 12 dimensional chess behind the scenes and its so convoluted that they made a huge database to keep everything straight. MGS3 has its share of nonsense, but also has an extremely powerful human story behind it. MGS1 is silly, but is also kind of simplistic because all of the crazy plots haven't had time to fold in on themselves yet. MGS2 is a source of many of the latter story problems in MGS4 when MGS4 decided to be a kind of straight sequel to a game that descended into postmodern insanity in its final act.

As far as the worst plot point or twist, individually, I think it's a two way tie between Big Boss coming back at the end of 4 and "everything was a simulation / controlled by an AI" in MGS2. I know a lot of people love 2, but that's just because they're wrong. Hideo Kojima is the person for whom the words "pretentious" and "overwrought" were invented.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

I too was upset about the Ocelot thing at first but after I thought about it for a while, I think the greatest part about Ocelot

Spoiler

not actually being controlled by Liquid's arm

is that we all just accepted it in MGS2 because...MGS, and then in MGS4 despite cyborgs and vamp and

Spoiler

putting together BB's body and keeping him alive all those years

and metal gears and patriots and nanomachines, Kojima's just like

Spoiler

that isn't even close to possible with today's technology, are you dumb?

. What a master fucking ruseman he is. I love it.

Spoiler

Ocelot actually did get possessed by Liquid's arm in MGS 2.

That's what makes it so dumb; instead of getting one dumb thing or the other, we actually get both. The whole thing doesn't even have a sensible narrative purpose.

 

[KORNdoggy]

It winds up being like a bad episode of Star Trek Voyager with the level of technobabble going on. What's especially odd about some of this stuff is that there obviously is real psychic powers and spirits in the series, i.e. psycho mantis (living + dead) and The Sorrow. So why shy away from it? Nobody knows.

that's hugely insulting to star trek voyager lol.

and is there real psychic powers in the series? after vamps superhuman abilities being explained away via nanomachines. i worry that's potentially the case for everyone.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

that's hugely insulting to star trek voyager lol.

and is there real psychic powers in the series? after vamps superhuman abilities being explained away via nanomachines. i worry that's potentially the case for everyone.

I guess its possible they could retcon MGS1 and 4's psycho mantis encounters as secret nanomachine mind reading and nanomachine induced halucinations, then retcon MGS3's supernatural events as nothing more than a fever dream.

 

[Brerlappin]

All of your support team in MGS3 turned evil and built an AI that runs the world. Somehow. That's the most egregious one to me. I have a hard time suspending my disbelief for it.

I think where MGS is concerned, Disbelief shouldnt be suspended, it should be hung, drawn, quartered and its remains incinerated before the Disc can be put in the tray.

MGS story has gotten so ludicrous now its impossible to pin down any one plot point or twist that really sticks out, but im gonna go with Sunny & Her eggs and the entire Wedding thing from MGS4 as the moment where the series did a barrel roll over a Shark for me.

 

[kabel]

I guess its possible they could retcon MGS1 and 4's psycho mantis encounters as secret nanomachine mind reading and nanomachine induced halucinations, then retcon MGS3's supernatural events as nothing more than a fever dream.

I wanted to play TPP because I liked GZ.

But after reading this thread and this post I am not sure if I even want to. I like logic in my games...

 

[Luigi87]

I want to say the whole Liquid Ocelot thing, but ultimately I gotta give it to Meryl and Johnny.
... That was just stupid.

Edit: Actually maybe LO for my ludicrous, and M&J for most stupid.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Liquid's arm in MGS2 and 4. I love the batshit zany story of the series, but that was just WTF. Also; Everything was nanomachines.

 

[Piers]

Old Snake needing to

Spoiler

force himself through the microwave, into the server room.
Ultimately he does practically nothing in these events.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Also; Everything was nanomachines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kNrIn8H32c

Obligatory

 

[Coffee Dog]

Pretty much the entirety of MGS2, whose bullshit MGS4 had the unfortunate distinction of having to clean up.

And I like MGS2.

MGS2 didn't need to be cleaned up. Setting a game after MGS2 at all was the mistake.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kNrIn8H32c

Obligatory

"You know, Snake, we really are the nanomachines"

 

[Gun Animal]

I wanted to play TPP because I liked GZ.

But after reading this thread and this post I am not sure if I even want to. I like logic in my games...

Watch some of the cutscenes from previous games to get a sense of if the series is for you or not. I reccomend Snake Eater.

 

[Disgraced]

Yep, MGS4's story is stuuuuuuupid, and Liquid Ocelot is I-don't-even-know-man, but it's okay now because without it I wouldn't have finally found what IIIIIIII was loooooooking for! A place where I can beeeeee withouuuuut remorse!

Nanomachines, son.

 

[Zomba13]

I wanted to play TPP because I liked GZ.

But after reading this thread and this post I am not sure if I even want to. I like logic in my games...

Then you've entered the wrong series I'm afraid.

 

[flipswitch]

I wonder if there's a story summary video on YT? Would need an aspirin at the end I think..


I'll just mention I haven't been in the Gamescom MGSV thread. I've been tempted but managed to hold off.

 

[KORNdoggy]

I wanted to play TPP because I liked GZ.

But after reading this thread and this post I am not sure if I even want to. I like logic in my games...

then i'd suggest the first MGS game on PSone. it was essentially a terrorist nuke story with some flamboyant bosses interspersed throughout that have some marginally bat shit crazy backstories but ultimately never clouded the main story arch of "bad guys have nuke...stop bad guys" it's still the best MGS. and still very playable.

 

[kabel]

Then you've entered the wrong series I'm afraid.

But the gameplay is sooo good!

 

[Javier23]

More like a series of twists, but if I got it right, all throghout MGS1 Ocelot is pretending to work for Liquid while pretending to work for Solidus while pretending to work for the Patriots while actually working on his own with the goal of eventually finishing them.

 

[Stereogatari]

The cast of MGS3 are the Patriots. I never liked that. Ruined MGS4 for me.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

More like a series of twists, but if I got it right, all throghout MGS1 Ocelot is pretending to work for Liquid while pretending to work for Solidus while pretending to work for the Patriots while actually working on his own with the goal of eventually finishing them.

 

[TheProdigal]

Meryl marrying a dude whose contribution to the mgs series is us watching him shit his pants every game

 

[dmshaposv]

The one where a real-life doctor who thinks he can do head transplants turns out to be a Mega Man boss robot called Hot-Cold Man who is a CIA agent and also secretly Big Boss and a Metal Gear transplant recipient who sometimes goes by the name of Chico who grows up and changes into Quiet which is short for Pacifica Ocean Skullface Miller Vaginabomb Canlovebloomevenonabattlefield #teamfarewellsausage

i think ur having ur MGS2 AI Campbell moment.

 

[MunkyGaban]

La Li Lu Le Lo

 

[WrenchNinja]

How could I forget about vagina bomb

Ground zeroes is so shit

 

[KJRS_1993]

Holding R1 for cleavage shots and upskirts of a woman with terminal cancer for a HP boost, before the game attempts to make you feel emotional when she kills herself anyway.

 

[kagamin]

Miller is actually

Spoiler

the sunglasses, he's not a person. The body is just a shell for "Miller." In MGSV, Miller's "body" is unresponsive until Big Boss puts the glasses on him. No less than a second later, he "awakens." Same goes for MGS1 -- Liquid became the "host" of Miller until he removed the glasses. Did you like my sunglasses?

But in all seriousness, Meryl and Johnny.

My glasses! I can't be seen without my glasses!

 

[KORNdoggy]

How could I forget about vagina bomb

Ground zeroes is so shit

haha. i know right. while i have TPP on order. i'm not actually looking forward to it much.

 

[Dimentios]

while he was ACTUALLY possessed

I always thought that Ocelot played a role even then.

In the Ending of MGS4 Big Boss tells Snake:

"They never managed to control people at will. Let alone turning one person totally into another."

That could mean that Ocelots hypnotic suggestion shit never worked.

"Under certain conditions, someone can be made to play a specific role. Act like someone else. Cats [Ocelot] do love to play as snakes [Liquid Snake]."

And during this second statement there is a flashback of MGS2 with Ocelot and the arm implying he was just playing an act.

 

[Dremark]

Pretty much the entirety of MGS2, whose bullshit MGS4 had the unfortunate distinction of having to clean up.

And I like MGS2.

What exactly are you referring to? I recall MGS4 retconning stuff for it's own narrative, as far as I can see MGS4's faults are it's own.

 

[zoukka]

Meryl marrying a dude whose contribution to the mgs series is us watching him shit his pants every game

I almost threw the fucking disc at that point. MGS4 was such a big drop in quality from the series...

Holding R1 for cleavage shots and upskirts of a woman with terminal cancer for a HP boost, before the game attempts to make you feel emotional when she kills herself anyway.

This shit is what makes MGS so good! It doesn't take itself too seriously (though MGS4 kinda did which is why it felt bad).

 

[tensuke]

I always thought that Ocelot played a role even then.

In the Ending of MGS4 Big Boss tells Snake:

"They never managed to control people at will. Let alone turning one person totally into another."

That could mean that Ocelots hypnotic suggestion shit never worked.

"Under certain conditions, someone can be made to play a specific role. Act like someone else. Cats [Ocelot] do love to play as snakes [Liquid Snake]."

And during this second statement there is a flashback of MGS2 with Ocelot and the arm implying he was just playing an act.

Yeah from what I gather in Big Boss's speech is that while Ocelot uses hypnosis, psychotherapy, and nanomachines to "transplant Liquid's personality", he's not really being controlled by the arm, because that's not technically possible. He's pretending, but thanks to hypnosis it seems real. But there's no "Liquid" left in the arm. And he decided to use this to fool the patriots before MGS2, which is why he decided to use Liquid's arm in the first place.

 

[NateDog]

The arm shit with Ocelot takes the cake, although that's going from MGS2 to MGS4 and covering a twist within a twist which makes it even worse. I will reserve a place in my heart for the The Boss AI and Big Boss still not being able to let her go after that long in Peace Walker though.

 

[fedexpeon]

Was there any hint with Meryl and Johnny in the beginning?
It was literally summarized in 2 paragraph that Meryl decided that she wanted to settle down, and Johnny was the next best thing...

 

[Jawmuncher]

The ending of MGS4

Spoiler

Big Boss being alive and telling you sorry son is just ridiculous

 

[Dragon1893]

OP already nailed it, it's like a fucking parody.

 

[The Real Napsta]

If Big Boss had such an advanced robotic arm in the 80s then why didn't Ocelot just get one of those?

Because the real thing is better?

 

[tensuke]

Because the real thing is better?

I've seen the MGSV gameplay vids. Robotic arm is definitely better.

 

[matrix-cat]

If Big Boss had such an advanced robotic arm in the 80s then why didn't Ocelot just get one of those?

Ocelot's been hardcore in love with Big Boss since that first CQC throw. When he saw the opportunity to get dem Snake genes inside himself he couldn't pass it up.

 

[brandonh83]

The arm shit. Still can't get over it to this day. I mean I love the Kojima buffoonery about it but yeah it's terrible.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Spoiler

Ocelot hypnotizing himself was pretty dumb

Has to be this.

 

[KorrZ]

MGS4: Ocelot faking the Liquid thing the whole time. That was bullshit. It made me angry actually, it was fucking Cam Clarke's voice in MGS2!

 

[Moon_frogger]

The arm. Whatever explanation, the arm is just incredibly stupid. As a side note, the most annoying part of 2 is not rose, it's otacon. His crying scenes are the worst.

 

[Sub_Level]

The arm was cool in 2 because Cam Clarke is such a badass voice character.

Ocelot as a pseudo villain is also really cool.

But in MGS4 we get some dweeb named Liquid Ocelot who admits he is neither. He is literally a brainwashed Ocelot because it somehow fools the AIs that rely on norms. Kind of vague.