-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Why are several PS4 Pro games arbitrarily locking 1080p users out of downsampling?
- Thread starter Vashetti
- Start date
So Sony reached out to five devs, chosen randomly I assume, and told them: "hey, it's Sony. You know that Pro patch? Make sure it doesn't downsample at 1080p...what do you mean, why? To sell 4K tvs of course...we know there's no guarantee that people will buy be a Sony TV, but just do it, okay? Bye."
Come on.
Added Rocket League to OP
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...ort-coming-to-rocket-league-on-21st-february/
Why does this keep happening?
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...ort-coming-to-rocket-league-on-21st-february/
Why does this keep happening?
Man, this sucks. I guess the devs don't really care about it? Sony just really needs to make downsampling an option in the firmware.
I don't think you understand. Downsampling/supersampling provides a far crisper image.
After the addition of Boost Mode, I think it definitely could happen.
Bits N Pieces
Member
I hope Microsoft have looked at all the great benefits the Pro gives users, along with some of the negatives and gets to work on it.
As someone who doesnt intend to pick up a 4K TV anytime soon these new iterative consoles need to do something for my current TV setup.
As someone who doesnt intend to pick up a 4K TV anytime soon these new iterative consoles need to do something for my current TV setup.
Sad news, really.
But "at this time" is very interesting, I think it's an hopeful sign.
We have the Boost Mode so now I can see a future option with the automatic downsampling.
Always-honest
Banned
NOOOOOOOOO!!! What the FUCK?!??!
Why the fucking fuck won't they support downsampling???@!>!>!>!?!??!?
Most people play on MOTHERFUCKING 1080P screens.
Infuriating and just fucking stupid.
Game is in the bin.
Primethius
Banned
So damn stupid. Sony needs to get their act together and just add a system-wide super sampling option.
So let me see if I understand. These patches are technically Pro patches therefore the game is locked out of boost mode, but the patches do nothing for 1080p owners, so the game having a Pro patch is now a detriment to the performance you could achieve if the game didn't have a Pro patch?
You don't understand. The graphics and performance enhancements are still coming to 1080p users, but 4K downsampling isn't. The game will only render at 1080p for 1080p display users.
dmix90
Member
No, basic Pro patch = Boost mode + unlocked 50% compute power of updated GPU
If there is no further enchancements( improved IQ, graphics details, supersampling etc ) then this additional compute power is just going to be wasted.
To the developers who do not bother to add downsampling for 1080p users and not even bothered to explain why + for Sony for not mandating this during their certification:
Probably because if a game runs 1-2% worse when downsampled than it does at native 1080p there will be an online backlash.
DrDamn
Member
That's a really odd way to answer the question asked. "Great question"? "at this time"? Then no follow ups to the further questions.
I think it is coming in the OS and Devs are getting a bit hacked off with how long Sony is taking to release the update.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Naughty Dog fixed 4K and 1800p performance in TLOU and still locked out 1080p display users from downsampling.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Which COD?
Yeah, I'd get that devs wouldn't bother with implementing downsampling themselves if Sony told them that they'd put in the next update. However do I not understand why Sony would keep it secret and not tell us.
But then again, they also stealth released the boost mode.
Black Ops III
dealer-
Member
I will probably do the same. I mean that's want they want us to do so it's annoying but I'm fed up of the downsampling lottery.
Negotiator
Member
Not really. By definition all Pro patches run the CPU @ 2.13 GHz, so at the very least you're getting 33% higher framerate.
Graphics-wise, yeah, there's probably no benefit (still no AA?)...
Regarding the CU count in boost mode, I think that it may be possible to unlock the full amount of them (36 vs 18), but only if the game is coded in a higher level abstraction API (GNMX, not GNM).
GNMX = DX11-like API (no, it's not based on OpenGL, API calls resemble DX11 notation)
GNM = DX12/Mantle/Vulkan-like API
GNMX has a higher CPU overhead (it's mostly a single-threaded API, just like DX11) and that's why certain games run like shit (AC Unity, Just Cause 3 etc.)
DX11-like APIs also cause framepacing issues on AMD hardware (both on consoles & PC).
family_guy
Member
Well I suppose options are nice, but are people really being blown away by a downsampled image on a 1080p TV? I've done it on my PC and I really only notice it in still images, not in motion.
Melchiah
Member
Yes. That, and the additional visual enhancements, were the reasons for why I bought the Pro. There's no reason to keep the benefits of higher resolution out of users' reach, purely based on the display type. We all paid the same amount for the same system, so why only the 4K owners should get visual benefits?
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Now everyone notice
System level makes sense.
Seems like it! That's what keeps hope alive.
pretty done
Member
Uncharted 4 1080p vs. 1440p is really all I need to see to convince me. Pretty big difference on my monitor since I sit close.
Thanks for this thread OP, I'll be avoiding all games that do this. Absolutely no reason to not use the extra power for 1080p users outside of "lazy devs". It's not called the PS4K.
ethomaz
Banned
I believe the downsampling will be via firmware update and not ingame option... that is why devs are not working on it (and Sony asked to remove from games that had it) and this his reply hints that... not at this time.
The Pro is being marketed to enthusiasts, yet some devs aren't bothering to include downsampling, and one (ND) has even bloody removed it.
What makes it even more infuriating is the complete lack of communication about why certain games don't have downsampling. Would it kill ND (or Arkane, or Ubisoft) to explain why, in a blog post?
I am not a programmer and have absolutely no idea whether downsampling is an easy thing for a dev to implement in a game that has a resolution boost for 4K. My suspicion is that it isn't, but can anyone confirm?
I don't for one moment think that devs are lazy, or that professional programmers don't know what downsampling is, so I am at a loss to understand why it's missing in some games. I guess it's asking way too much of Sony to give some information to its customers.
What makes it even more infuriating is the complete lack of communication about why certain games don't have downsampling. Would it kill ND (or Arkane, or Ubisoft) to explain why, in a blog post?
I am not a programmer and have absolutely no idea whether downsampling is an easy thing for a dev to implement in a game that has a resolution boost for 4K. My suspicion is that it isn't, but can anyone confirm?
I don't for one moment think that devs are lazy, or that professional programmers don't know what downsampling is, so I am at a loss to understand why it's missing in some games. I guess it's asking way too much of Sony to give some information to its customers.
Melchiah
Member
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/11/01/how-ps4-pro-enhances-horizon-zero-dawn/
It improves the quality of textures as well.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
There's far more newly patched games that do support supersampling however. Games that do no support it are still very much an outlier.Now everyone notice
I'd love you to be right with system wide option, but this one game not supporting supersampling while many other newer ones do, is no a proof this is coming. It's just a proof that some people in charge of these patches don't seem to know what they're doing.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Is there a stand alone video unit that will accept 4k and downsample to 1080? A converter of some sort?
Melchiah
Member
Apparently there is, according to Dark10x, but it costs over 200$, IIRC.
This old 2013 thread will help you get an idea of the difference - and the bolded and underlined is what you can expect. However keep in mind these are all comparisons of standard 1080p rendered games vs downsampled from 4k ie rendering at 4k (without the whole checkerboard stuff you get these days on PS4 Pro which will add other artifacts as do other scaling techniques that alter the ratio being scaled) scaled to the 1080p display - . Also of course these are PC games so don't compare directly to the console equivalents with different detail settings and internal rendering resolutions and scaling systems.
I won't bother with posting a sea of screenshots, for that I'll redirect you to the 2013 High-Res PC Screenshot Thread where you can see how good games can look when using downsampling. I will however post a couple of cropped comparison pics from Dota 2. It's no technical showcase game by any means BUT I do think one thing comes across and that is the visual difference between downsampling and "just" running the game at max settings. This can be quite striking considering you already had the game running at what you thought was the highest visual fidelity. Again these aren't meant to WOW anyone but you will notice that everything that is dependent on resolution will look tangibly better ( certain lighting effects, texture detail, shadow detail, model detail and of course a sharper, less blurry, less aliased image ).
Images are details cropped and resized x2 from a)1920x1080 and b)1920x1080 downsampled from 3680x2070. Open in separate tabs and flip side by side to see the difference in Dota 2 a game that lack AA options. ( Keep in mind that these are upscaled, here's an example of what it looks like ingame with hud turned off. )
Bonus Dirt 3 comparison.
And for the hell of it, here's some Mirror's Edge using downsampling and ingame AA.
Futurematic
Member
It should be incredibly easy.
I was just thinking about this...
I believe that UI elements would have to be resized depending on whether you are viewing at 4k or supersampled at 1080.
So there may be a bit of additional work.
If UI size is identical there shouldn't be anything diffeent.
If there will be choice to force 4k to 1080p output it will be very simple average of 4 pixels to one, done from final frame.
Would be nice if they added an unlocked resolution choice and just allowed the game to render in the target area in the resolution chosen like we already have.
I don't get why we can't do it since this has been a thing on PC for a long while
Has to be an issue with the current SDK (some kind of double handling when supersampling happens causing a performance decrease) and perhaps devs aren't allowed to mention the reason why because of an NDA.
Doesn't make sense why no-one has directly addressed the issue otherwise.
Doesn't make sense why no-one has directly addressed the issue otherwise.
Oh please this is bullshit lol. Plenty of devs, the majority, are giving us what we want.
How the hell major studios like ND and Ico are not providing this in a couple games is absurd. Especially for TLG. It really needs some downsampling.