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Why were Disney traditional hand drawn movies soo good?

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yes, it was. It goes into the underrated gems club along with Hercules and Tarzan (on a lesser extent)

man, I so need to rewatch Hercules right now. It's been just six times this year
 

GCX

Member
Catalix said:
Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin had a plenty of CG.
I think the clock tower scene in The Great Mouse Detective was the first time Disney used CG in a feature film.
 

Squeak

Member
The Black Cauldron and Basil had quite long CGI sequences in them. Also the little known danish 1984 movie Song of the Whales, has some complex 3d objects in it rendered in wireframe, and then retraced by hand to fit better with the rest of movie's style.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
GCX said:
I think the clock tower scene in The Great Mouse Detective was the first time Disney used CG in a feature film.
Squeak said:
The Black Cauldron and Basil had quite long CGI sequences in them. Also the little known danish 1984 movie Song of the Whales, has some complex 3d objects in it rendered in wireframe, and then retraced by hand to fit better with the rest of movie's style.
Which makes me wonder why so many are shitting all over the integration of CG in traditional animation. Not exactly a new practice and it can be a very effective tool in the hands of a capable artist. I think some of you guys are just looking for an easy scapegoat.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
I think there's a large majority of people here that are grossly overestimating the "passion" with which Disney "artists" put into their pre-pixar work. Their factory-like oppressive situations have been chronicled numerous times.

The old movies being better had nothing to do with passion and everything to do with better source material. Simply put, they ran out of fairy tales.

Lastly, I challenge anybody using Pocahontas and The Hunchback as horrible movies compared to The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, and The Lion King to try comparing The Aristocats and Robin Hood to comparitive earlier greats Alice in Wonderland or Cinderella.

Read: they've always been hit or miss. They're in a long streak of miss and their current artists, musical control, and narrative all leave something to be desired. I would point to The Little Mermaid as the beginning of the end.
 

GCX

Member
PantherLotus said:
The old movies being better had nothing to do with passion and everything to do with better source material. Simply put, they ran out of fairy tales.
I don't believe this for a second. You can't make a good movie without passion.
I recently read a fantastic book The Illusion of Life: Disney Animation written by two of Disney's "nine old men", Frank Thomas and Ollie Jonhston. Besides teaching all kinds of animation techniques and stuff, it also tells about the golden age of Disney and you can just feel how much passion every animator, director, painter, etc had for each movie they made. I respect Disney's old flicks a whole lot more after reading that book.

Do you think Walt Disney didn't have any passion for what he was doing when he risked pretty much the whole company just to make Snow White?

Catalix said:
Which makes me wonder why so many are shitting all over the integration of CG in traditional animation. Not exactly a new practice and it can be a very effective tool in the hands of a capable artist. I think some of you guys are just looking for an easy scapegoat.
I don't get all the people who blame CGI for the current state of Disney animation. You can make a great movie with computers just like you can make with traditional tools, and if you want to make it great, it requires just as much effort as a great traditional animation. CG isn't some kind of monster that makes movies suck. It's just laziness from Disney's part.
 

Squeak

Member
Catalix said:
Which makes me wonder why so many are shitting all over the integration of CG in traditional animation. Not exactly a new practice and it can be a very effective tool in the hands of a capable artist. I think some of you guys are just looking for an easy scapegoat.
I think the key here is:
The Black Cauldron and Basil had quite long CGI sequences in them. Also the little known danish 1984 movie Song of the Whales, has some complex 3d objects in it rendered in wireframe, and then retraced by hand to fit better with the rest of movie's style.
All too often CGI sticks out like a sore thumb. Conflicting way to much with the rest of the tone and visual language of the movie. Looking way to slick and clinical.
The Iron Giant has some of the most well integrated CGI ("line wobble" was added to make the completely straight lines of the CGI gel better with hand drawn stuff), but even there it's not perfect.
Using alternative methods to do complex 3D objects (something which is almost impossible to do by hand in a reasonable amount of time) is indeed an old practice. For example, the antlers in Bambi was real antlers rotated to correspond with the head movement of the deer and then traced on to paper.
 

Weapxn

Mikkelsexual
Oliver & Company
The Little Mermaid
The Rescuers Down Under
Beauty And The Beast
Aladdin
The Lion King
Pocahontas
The Hunchback Of Notre Dame
Hercules
Mulan
Tarzan
Fantasia/2000
The Emperor's New Groove
Atlantis: The Lost Empire
Lilo And Stitch
Treasure Planet
Brother Bear
Home On The Range

I wouldn't call the point of no return Mulan. I would say it goes downhill have Tarzan, although everything from Pocahontas to Tarzan is sort of a mixed bag in terms of how many people enjoyed it.

I am excited for The Princess and The Frog. Rapunzel too. I don't think they will let them be bad. They know how much is at stake.
 

Lebron

Member
All about Fox and the Hound!

when I saw it as a kid I was clueless, actually I don't think I really liked it as a kid. I watched it again with my cousins not to long ago and that junk nearly made me cry. All the things I missed as a kid I caught on to this time around. Actually my cousins did the exact same thing I did as a kid, as in missing the real message(s) of the movie. They just saw talking animals lol. Maybe that movie is attended for a more older audience.
 

Prax

Member
I think it's just that recent Disney movies didn't have musical numbers where the characters actually sing. I love watching musicals (it's all about the choreography and ability to weave it into the story seamlessly).

I don't have a hatred toward more recent Disney animations any more than I do against their older ones. For instance:

Snow White: I hate it--or rather, I think I just really hate Snow White the character.
Cinderella: It's.. okayish... eh.
Pinnochio: also kind of meh. Annoying songs.
Sleeping Beauty: really boring. I always fall asleep. I kind of like the angular style though.
Alice in Wonderland: also kind of boring
Bambi: I liked it. But I like animals in general.. and eating flowers always looked so tasty! XD
Peter Pan: I don't remember this one much! I don't hate it though..
Fox and the Hound: Animals! YAY! Really sad too.
Great Mouse Detective: MICE! YAY! Musical numbers were fun.
The Little Mermaid: It was cool that Ariel had red hair. Music was cool, so was exploding Ursula (although that sickened me a little bit...).
Aladdin: pretty enjoyable. I liked the music and use of CG. I also liked that Jasmine wore pants. XD
Beauty and the Beast: One of my favourites. Music was awesome, and CG for ballroom dancing captivated me as a kid.
Lion King: Animals! Woo! Very appealing visually. Cool use of CG for the stampede. Songs were epic.
Pocahontas: loved the visual style. Very different from the usual "rounded" style from Snow White - Aladdin. I enjoyed the music, and liked how this wasn't the "happily ever after" ending that other movies had.
Hunchback of Notre Dame: also very nice visual style (I think Esmeralda's stunning to look at too, not to mention how cool the Notre Dame looked), and I think the music was excellent.
Hercules: interesting visual style, but not my favourite. I really enjoyed the music, but was kind of confused by their liberties--especially with non-evil/jealous Hera after watching the live-action "The Adventured of Hercules" for a while...
Mulan: FINALLY, an east-asian setting for a story! I was waiting for this type to come by and am glad I enjoyed it. Could have used more epic battles though. >.>
Tarzan: not my favourite movies.. mainly because I don't love jazzy music.
Lilo & Stitch: I actually dont' remember much about this movie except that I thought it was really cute and liked the character designs.
Emperor's New Groove: I didn't like the visual style of this one. It's on the same level as "Shrek" to me.. as in it probably used too many pop-culture-y references.
Atlantis: WHERE'S MY MUSIC?! I liked the females in the movie though. Nice cast variety.
Treasure Planet: I didn't get to watch this one until years after it came out, but I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed it! Despite its lack of musical numbers and weird mecha-planet touches.
Enchanted: MUSICAL NUMBERS! YES! My favourite parts, of course, were the animated parts. I don't think Disney has lost their magic.
Wall-e: so cute! I enjoyed it. .. .... needs more musical numbers.. haha.

There's a lot I forgot in their because they didn't make a memorable mark in my head (like Robin Hood, Aristrocats, Oliver and Company.. etc). But I don't think I enjoy recent Disney movies any less than older ones. I didn't see Home on the Range though.. because I don't like farm settings.. I think (plus, the style is more reminiscent of Emperor's New Groove, which I dislike).

I think a lot of your guys probably are tainted by nostalgia. I for sure don't hold up all the old stuff on some untouchable "when artists were real artists" pedestals. I still think artists have as much passion as they ever did.. it's just that there's a lot more grunt-work now, even with computers and techno do-dads involved. I think there is just so much more polish needed in the newer movies that not everything comes out as consistent as they want.

I'm looking forward to the Princess and the Frog and Rapunzel.. since it's getting back to the fantasy stuff ... .. and I hope for musical numbers..
 

btrboyev

Member
This thread should be changed to why traditional hand drawn movies are so good. You can't exclude classic Don Bluth films, that guy was a master at hand drawn animation.
 

GCX

Member
Lebron said:
All about Fox and the Hound!

when I saw it as a kid I was clueless, actually I don't think I really liked it as a kid. I watched it again with my cousins not to long ago and that junk nearly made me cry. All the things I missed as a kid I caught on to this time around. Actually my cousins did the exact same thing I did as a kid, as in missing the real message(s) of the movie. They just saw talking animals lol. Maybe that movie is attended for a more older audience.
Yeah, it's defintely one of the most underrated Disney flicks. It seems it was ahead of it's time in a way since many didn't like how the movie didn't end like a Disney movie "should" end.

Plus the project also introduced a lot of future masterminds to the world of entertaiment. For example, it was the first movie Brad Bird and Tim Burton worked on.
 

Squeak

Member
PantherLotus said:
I think there's a large majority of people here that are grossly overestimating the "passion" with which Disney "artists" put into their pre-pixar work. Their factory-like oppressive situations have been chronicled numerous times.

The old movies being better had nothing to do with passion and everything to do with better source material. Simply put, they ran out of fairy tales.
Rubbish! There's are a huge supply of legends and tales out there just waiting to be used.

If anything, the Disney of today is too lenient with its artists and employees. Letting absolute crap slip through and half baked harebrained ideas using huge vats of money.
What it really needs is someone with clear and good taste like the nine old men and Disney (bare in mind that I'm not talking about Pixar here, they are fine).
Lastly, I challenge anybody using Pocahontas and The Hunchback as horrible movies compared to The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, and The Lion King to try comparing The Aristocats and Robin Hood to comparitive earlier greats Alice in Wonderland or Cinderella.
I think noone would argue that there wasn't a drop in quality after Walt died, but the movies up to 86 was still overall infinitely better than what came after.

Read: they've always been hit or miss. They're in a long streak of miss and their current artists, musical control, and narrative all leave something to be desired. I would point to The Little Mermaid as the beginning of the end.
I agree completely with that, but I don't see how the makes sense with the other stuff you wrote?
 

Masked Man

I said wow
Lebron said:
All about Fox and the Hound!

when I saw it as a kid I was clueless, actually I don't think I really liked it as a kid. I watched it again with my cousins not to long ago and that junk nearly made me cry. All the things I missed as a kid I caught on to this time around. Actually my cousins did the exact same thing I did as a kid, as in missing the real message(s) of the movie. They just saw talking animals lol. Maybe that movie is attended for a more older audience.

SUCH an underrated movie. It's heartbreaking to watch, especially toward the end. ;_;
 

Jacobi

Banned
It really is weird. Tried watching Brother Bear... But no, I didn't give a shit about it, so I stopped watching it

The old stuff really is full of magic.
 

Weapxn

Mikkelsexual
The Experiment said:
I've only seen The Lion King.

To be honest, if I ever have kids, I probably won't let them watch the old Disney movies.
Uh...what? Why not? They are like...a cornerstone that every person's childhood should have -- building delusional situations and relationships in your mind, creating unrealistic expectations about love and happiness, throwing in a handful of absolutely heart-wrenching scenes that make you want to die.
 
btrboyev said:
This thread should be changed to why traditional hand drawn movies are so good. You can't exclude classic Don Bluth films, that guy was a master at hand drawn animation.

When I was younger, I remember Secret of Nimh as being just incredible. It actually had a reasonable story and didn't devolve into the music, comic relief stunts, and goody goody themes that all of the Disney stories did. It was dark, scary, and just seemed to drip magic.

Of course, my daughter hates it ;)

I have to say that's the only post Disney movie of his I saw, although I did play $100's of dollars worth of Dragon's Lair and Space Ace ... At the time, it seemed like the start of a whole new generation of gaming.
 

Squeak

Member
Scullibundo said:
The Prince of Egypt buries any Disney film in terms of animation and matches all (except maybe BatB) in terms of design. It can also go head to head with any Disney film in terms of musical numbers. IMO no Disney film can match The Prince of Egypt and it had taken me a long time to realise that.
It has high production values alright, but that's about all its got. It's a shiny red polished apple but completely hollow on the inside once your teeth pierces the surface.
The horrible style of animation (there is such a thing as being too expressive and too much squash and stretch) and the style of the characters is just awefull. The end result of the whole "hip", "contemporary" American animation style that was developed in the 90's.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
btrboyev said:
This thread should be changed to why traditional hand drawn movies are so good. You can't exclude classic Don Bluth films, that guy was a master at hand drawn animation.

Too bad he was a terrible director.
 

Lebron

Member
GCX said:
Yeah, it's defintely one of the most underrated Disney flicks. It seems it was ahead of it's time in a way since many didn't like how the movie didn't end like a Disney movie "should" end.

Plus the project also introduced a lot of future masterminds to the world of entertaiment. For example, it was the first movie Brad Bird and Tim Burton worked on.
That it is, that it is.

I remember however reading the book in HS for a project, thinking it was basically the same thing as the movie. Boy was I ever wrong. They're both strikingly different from one another, and the book was even sadder than the actual movie.
Both Todd and Copper were killed. I think Copper was shot by his owner, and Todd was killed and skinned
Yeah that bummed me out for a while.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
btrboyev said:
I disagree


The Secret of NIMH, an American Tail, and All Dogs Go to Heaven prove otherwise.

Well he did make some gems, but those are floating in a sea of Rock-a-Doodle, Thumbelina, Anastasia, Bartok, Titan AE (Which admittedly, I like because I love Sci-Fi and I watched it as a kid, but looking back it sucks pretty bad), Pebble and the Penguin, and some other crap.
 

sh4mike

Member
28. The Little Mermaid
30. Beauty And The Beast
31. Aladdin
32. The Lion King
35. Hercules
36. Mulan
37. Tarzan
41. Lilo And Stitch

I love these and watch them repeatedly. Refuse to watch the rest.

I love everthing Pixar outside Bug's and Cars. Shrek 1+2 are also worthy.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
btrboyev said:
I disagree


The Secret of NIMH, an American Tail, and All Dogs Go to Heaven prove otherwise.
Those truly are some underrated gems. Especially All Dogs Go to Heaven because all the dogs died at the end :(
 
Adumaha said:
Well he did make some gems, but those are floating in a sea of Rock-a-Doodle, Thumbelina, Anastasia, Bartok, Titan AE (Which admittedly, I like because I love Sci-Fi and I watched it as a kid, but looking back it sucks pretty bad), Pebble and the Penguin, and some other crap.

I loved Rock-a-Doodle as a kid, which may or may not negate my entire sense of taste. :/
 
Weapxn said:
Uh...what? Why not? They are like...a cornerstone that every person's childhood should have -- building delusional situations and relationships in your mind, creating unrealistic expectations about love and happiness, throwing in a handful of absolutely heart-wrenching scenes that make you want to die.

I grew up watching only one Disney film so to be honest, I don't have that Disney nostalgia.

I just don't agree with the consumerist, racist, and sexist undertones of the films.
 

Branduil

Member
The Experiment said:
I grew up watching only one Disney film so to be honest, I don't have that Disney nostalgia.

I just don't agree with the consumerist, racist, and sexist undertones of the films.
51qbux.jpg


Anyway, not enough love for Sleeping Beauty in this thread.
33kepnc.jpg

2eq77z9.jpg

30djzp2.jpg

142aiwg.jpg

263klya.jpg

Great art and music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sngtc5jn7w&feature=related
 
The Experiment said:
I grew up watching only one Disney film so to be honest, I don't have that Disney nostalgia.

I just don't agree with the consumerist, racist, and sexist undertones of the films.



dombo2.jpg


Peter Pan's "What makes the Red Man red" cracks me up every time

but my fav has always been Uncle Remus in Song of the south. The main actor wasn't even allowed to attend the premiere in 1946, rofl
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Anasui Kishibe said:
Peter Pan's "What makes the Red Man red" cracks me up every time

That song isn't really racist, if anything it's about sexuality. Actually, that whole part was about sex.
 

Barrett2

Member
I just wanted to drop in and say The Sword in the Stone is one of the best movies of all time. I probably watched it at least 50 times as a kid, and loved every minute of it.


The Experiment said:
I grew up watching only one Disney film so to be honest, I don't have that Disney nostalgia.

I just don't agree with the consumerist, racist, and sexist undertones of the films.

What kind of joyless hippie compound were you raised in?
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
PantherLotus said:
to try comparing The Aristocats and Robin Hood to comparitive earlier greats Alice in Wonderland or Cinderella.

Read: they've always been hit or miss. They're in a long streak of miss and their current artists, musical control, and narrative all leave something to be desired. I would point to The Little Mermaid as the beginning of the end.
I've always been of the opinion that the weak periods were the 70s and the post-Hunchback years. Otherwise the films were generally fairly decent...

Squeak said:
Fact: Everything after Basil the Great Mouse Detective is just pure formulaic, calculated, saccharine, "family oriented" (ie. leaving noone satisfied) crap.
Corporate manufactured culture at its worst.
Sure, the production values are high, but that can only be a detriment when the underlying structure is so weak.
Watch Bambi and Pinocchio for an example of not only some of the most soulful and generally great animation ever but also for some of the best film-making ever, period.
I'm a bit puzzled by that... TLM, B&B, and Hunchback are all films which are much better than a) all of the 70s-Basil stuff, and b) are on par with some of the classic Disney stuff. The rest of the films I'll give to you, if you want them, but....
 

AniHawk

Member
lawblob said:
What kind of joyless hippie compound were you raised in?

He does have a bit of a point. Whether intentional or not, that stuff is there.

The Little Mermaid: Win the guy with your body and looks (I think there's a song about it sung by Ursula)
Beauty and the Beast: Hey he might mistreat you and imprison you and yell at you, but he's a good guy deep down. Just gotta work at it is all!
Aladdin: Guys are easily distracted if you turn the sex from 1 to 11 (Jasmine vs Jafar)
Mulan: Well you saved China, back to being a woman. Maybe the captain is like, totally interested in you.

On race:
Lady & the Tramp and Oliver & Company: Because Spanish-speakers can't be anything but Chihuahuas (horny Chihuahuas in the case of Oliver & Company)
The Lion King: The hyenas all have sort of an 'urban' accent.
Tarzan: Did you know that Africa has no black people? It's a fun fact.
Pocahontas: AND THE WHITE PEOPLE AND INDIANS LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER. ALSO, THE INDIANS ALSO THOUGHT THE WHITE PEOPLE WERE SAVAGES SO REALLY EVERYONE WAS TO BLAME.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Branduil said:
Anyway, not enough love for Sleeping Beauty in this thread.
33kepnc.jpg

2eq77z9.jpg

30djzp2.jpg

142aiwg.jpg

263klya.jpg

Great art and music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sngtc5jn7w&feature=related

As far as I'm concerned, the Blu-ray release is a day one purchase.

NutJobJim said:
Holy shit GAF no Jungle Book love?
lawblob said:
I just wanted to drop in and say The Sword in the Stone is one of the best movies of all time. I probably watched it at least 50 times as a kid, and loved every minute of it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12879808&postcount=132
 
It was a combination of the artwork, story and music. But really the stories were the main drivers.

Pixar now rules the roost when it comes to story.

I honestly think Pixar could make a movie about a talking turd and make it work.
 

antiloop

Member
They feel artificial because you can't see any flaws in the visuals. They are too pixel perfect. It's just something about hand-drawn pictures/movies that makes them more alive in my opinion.

Too bad it's too expensive and time consuming doing it the old fashioned way.

I still enjoy some of the new movies and especially the early computer made ones where they only used some CG.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
industrian said:
I used to watch the Sword in the Stone almost every day when I was a kid. That and the Jungle Book. Great films.

Sorry I missed that post but seriously The Jungle Book has been seriously overlooked in this thread. I'd go so far as to say it's the greatest Disney film of all time.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
antiloop said:
They feel artificial because you can't see any flaws in the visuals. They are too pixel perfect. It's just something about hand-drawn pictures/movies that makes them more alive in my opinion.

Too bad it's too expensive and time consuming doing it the old fashioned way.

I still enjoy some of the new movies and especially the early computer made ones where they only used some CG.

This reminds me of the issue I have with the new digitally remastered releases. Particularly Bambi, where they foolishly cleaned up all the lines so there isn't any wobble. In the original release, whenever Bambi stood still, the lines wobbled a bit, making him seem more alive. Now they just look like held cels and that totally kills the movie in my opinion.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
NutJobJim said:
Sorry I missed that post but seriously The Jungle Book has been seriously overlooked in this thread. I'd go so far as to say it's the greatest Disney film of all time.

I got really stoned at a friend's house a few weeks back and we ended up watching the video for I Wanna Be Like You on Youtube. I spent the whole time being in awe of the fact that this 41 year old cartoon put 99% of all stuff made today to shame.

Then I got the idea of dubbing the above movie with Gary Glitter's "The Leader of the Gang" and we just spent the next ten minutes pissing ourselves laughing.

But yeah, just watching that movie right now, The Jungle Book kicked all sorts of ass.
 
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