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[Super Mario]

I already showed how that statistic is wrong. The statistical SOURCE said the stats were from 1955-2010, with 90% coming after 1990. There is no mention of 2003 to whatever, making the 22-37% statistic unlikely to derive, and therefore wrong. That's not even looking at all of the articles data in order to see how they actually made comparisons. But again, having 50% of crime doesnt mean that we need a wall. It's symbolic.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...egal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real

The first report found that criminal aliens, both legal and illegal, make up 27 percent of all federal prisoners. Yet non-citizens are only about nine percent of the nation’s adult population. Thus, judging by the numbers in federal prisons alone, non-citizens commit federal crimes at three times the rate of citizens.

The findings in the second report are even more disturbing. It reviewed the criminal histories of 55,322 aliens in federal or state prisons and local jails who “entered the country illegally.” Those illegal aliens were arrested 459,614 times, an average of 8.3 arrests per illegal alien, and committed almost 700,000 criminal offenses, an average of roughly 12.7 offenses per illegal alien.

The 2011 GAO report is more of the same. The criminal histories of 251,000 criminal aliens showed that they had committed close to three million criminal offenses. Sixty-eight percent of those in federal prison and 66 percent of those in state prisons were from Mexico. Their offenses ranged from homicide and kidnapping to drugs, rape, burglary, and larceny.

Still think of illegal immigrants committing less crime when you read that?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.b6e7b2861944

Thanks for playing though. The stats show that it is disproportionate, rather than saying "less black people die by police than you think, so it's not a problem".

Arguments from the Washington post.... This argument basically says "A larger portion of black are killed as in relation to demographics. Therefore it must be racism." There is so much wrong with that statement. The black community also also a murder problem that is even more disproportionate. How does that factor in?

You are an American my friend, and unlike Super Mario and golfham, I’m going to actually fight for you because that’s what we stand for.

Stay strong. Keep telling your story and don't give up hope.

Look. He had an inspirational story. I'm glad it worked out for him, and he's living a better life. I really am. However, where do we draw the line between law and emotions? What if I wrote a story on how I robbed and burglared to pay for my sick son's cancer surgery (not true). I had good intent, and felt that I was wronged by the world. Am I eligible for court of emotions? This type of story is Liberal propaganda 101 (no offense to anyone here). Post an emotional story, and let it speak for why laws can be ignored.

I'm all for an immigration reform discussion. We have to remember though, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Trump is up for negotiating a form of DACA, wants law to be followed, and wants a physical border where we have a problem of a lot of people coming in illegally. That's not unreasonable. It's also not a bunch of white "I got mine" haters trying to keep everyone down. What is not reasonable is for disregard for rule and law.

The Democrats have messed up so badly on this issue. Their platform SHOULD be that our immigration laws are too strict and that causes an influx of illegal immigration. They could be fighting for amnesty and easier immigration. There are many compelling arguments to be heard on that stance. Yet, you go into their heartlands, and they fight for sanctuary cities, dedicated to keeping people illegal. We're supposed to ignore law because of some sad stories. That is not good policy, and you will never convince me otherwise.

 

[gohepcat]

C Composer Thanks for sharing that story, it was very touching and powerful. I can't say I understand what it must have been like, but thanks for the lens into your life. I must say, though, that from a higher, less emotional and personal level, I agree with a country having and enforcing laws regarding immigration. I think the idea of a Wall is a childish idea; a simple, concrete structure that is more symbolic than it is practical, so I'm not on-board with that. I must ask you, what is your perspective about how to best handle people in your situation? We have seen that it isn't a good idea in any country to have completely open borders, as this opens the system to abuses and various kinds of trouble with locals, cultures, etc. Regardless of what we may like to think in rosy terms, not all people are good, and not all cultures treat all people the same. In my view it is all very complicated, and should be handled rationally and with care.

We already have a perfect solution. It's called the DREAM Act.
It has nothing to do with open borders, it doesn't "reward" illegal immigrants in any way. It's totally logical

 

[gohepcat]

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...egal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real

The first report found that criminal aliens, both legal and illegal, make up 27 percent of all federal prisoners. Yet non-citizens are only about nine percent of the nation’s adult population. Thus, judging by the numbers in federal prisons alone, non-citizens commit federal crimes at three times the rate of citizens.

The findings in the second report are even more disturbing. It reviewed the criminal histories of 55,322 aliens in federal or state prisons and local jails who “entered the country illegally.” Those illegal aliens were arrested 459,614 times, an average of 8.3 arrests per illegal alien, and committed almost 700,000 criminal offenses, an average of roughly 12.7 offenses per illegal alien.

The 2011 GAO report is more of the same. The criminal histories of 251,000 criminal aliens showed that they had committed close to three million criminal offenses. Sixty-eight percent of those in federal prison and 66 percent of those in state prisons were from Mexico. Their offenses ranged from homicide and kidnapping to drugs, rape, burglary, and larceny.

Still think of illegal immigrants committing less crime when you read that?

You literally jump from one source to another when someone points out flaws in your data. You want to believe that there is a wave of crime and murder being caused by illegal immigrants and you are seeking out your data based on that.
Stop with the condescending tone about "only using the facts". YOU are the one who ignores the hard data. YOU are the one who simply ignores data that contradicts yours.

Show some fucking backbone and fight for what's right.

Look. He had an inspirational story. I'm glad it worked out for him, and he's living a better life. I really am. However, where do we draw the line between law and emotions? What if I wrote a story on how I robbed and burglared to pay for my sick son's cancer surgery (not true). I had good intent, and felt that I was wronged by the world. Am I eligible for court of emotions? This type of story is Liberal propaganda 101 (no offense to anyone here). Post an emotional story, and let it speak for why laws can be ignored.

You fight against laws that are unjust. You fight against the fucking travesty of ruining the lives of 1 million people who have done nothing wrong. Are you kidding me?

 

[EYEL1NER]

What if I wrote a story on how I robbed and burglared to pay for my sick son's cancer surgery (not true).

If you had robbed and burgled to pay for your sick son's cancer surgery, I hope people wouldn't lock him up or try to find a way to give him cancer again as punishment. That's what booting the DREAMers out of the country is.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Still think of illegal immigrants committing less crime when you read that?

From your own blog/opinion source:
In sum, it has not been proven that illegal aliens commit crimes at a lesser rate than either native-born or naturalized American citizens. In fact, existing data may support the opposite conclusion.

But he doesn't have the data for it, so it's a wash. Illegal immigration is going down from Mexico, crime isn't anything eye-popping, and we have good measures in place already that can be strengthened.

Arguments from the Washington post.... This argument basically says "A larger portion of black are killed as in relation to demographics. Therefore it must be racism." There is so much wrong with that statement. The black community also also a murder problem that is even more disproportionate. How does that factor in?

"Therefore it must be racism", has been demonstrated so many times over from so many sources it'll make your head spin. Theres multifactors. Murder/crime is a symptom of poverty and inequality rather than your violent subculture theory.

Now, I want you to tell me what the problem with illegal immigration from Mexico is now.

You say they take more taxes than they give, and there's your crime argument, but what else is there?

 

[pramod]

We already have a perfect solution. It's called the DREAM Act.
It has nothing to do with open borders, it doesn't "reward" illegal immigrants in any way. It's totally logical

And why is it illogical to ask for some sort of enforcement or border security in return for the DREAM Act? Unless you just support open borders which in that case there really is no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Super Mario]

From your own blog/opinion source:

In sum, it has not been proven that illegal aliens commit crimes at a lesser rate than either native-born or naturalized American citizens. In fact, existing data may support the opposite conclusion.

But he doesn't have the data for it, so it's a wash. Illegal immigration is going down from Mexico, crime isn't anything eye-popping, and we have good measures in place already that can be strengthened.

Posting again:

In sum, it has not been proven that illegal aliens commit crimes at a lesser rate than either native-born or naturalized American citizens. In fact, existing data may support the opposite conclusion.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. No one even knows the impact for sure, but the data heavily indicates that it is worse than citizens. The article clearly says there is serious crime coming from there, from people who shouldn't be here. Articles posted previously mentioned the financial deficit incurred. Is this no big deal? Should we just have open borders since we can throw together some numbers somewhere that show positive trends?

"Therefore it must be racism", has been demonstrated so many times over from so many sources it'll make your head spin. Theres multifactors. Murder/crime is a symptom of poverty and inequality rather than your violent subculture theory.

So what is it now, that the police need reformed because they're killing innocent people or that the criminals in question commit crimes because of poverty and inequality? I REALLY don't want to turn this into a police debate.

Those *questionable* individuals killed by police is miniscule. If it is siginficant enough for national change, then I guess it would be just as effective if I showed you illegal immigrant individuals who violenty killed Americans. "This has been demonstrated so many times over from so many sources it'll make your head spin." Or is that not a convenient enough argument?

Now, I want you to tell me what the problem with illegal immigration from Mexico is now.

You say they take more taxes than they give, and there's your crime argument, but what else is there?

- It is illegal. Illegal immigration is illegal just about everywhere on the planet.
- There is a deficit on what the government spends on them vs revenue collected to the tune of tens of billions, maybe over 100 billion. This was discussed already.
- It is a country with known dangerous criminal activity. Even the Obama administration had travel advisories. Therefore, I believe it is in our best interest to not allow anyone to come over without passing our checks. Go back and read that article we were just talking about if you don't know this.

If you would like to read the most current travel advisory. Please do so. Let me know if this sounds like ideal criteria for open borders.
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr.../traveladvisories/mexico-travel-advisory.html

Problems I have with law-abiding, immigrant citizens, who followed the immigration process:
- None

And the argument for illegal immigration is?

 

[gohepcat]

And why is it illogical to ask for some sort of enforcement or border security in return for the DREAM Act? Unless you just support open borders which in that case there really is no point in continuing this discussion.

No one is considering open borders. That is absolutely ridiculous.
However....our immigration policy is so byzantine, so fucking crazy, and so unfair precisely because of people like yourself.

why is it illogical to ask for some sort of enforcement or border security in return for the DREAM Act?

We have border security. Maybe we need more. Maybe we need less. It's impossible to tell because the easiest card to play is "scary immigrants are dangerous" and the piece of shit in the Whitehouse has appealed to the absolute worst of human nature, so I believe that this is simply a boondoggle.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Posting again:

In sum, it has not been proven that illegal aliens commit crimes at a lesser rate than either native-born or naturalized American citizens. In fact, existing data may support the opposite conclusion.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. No one even knows the impact for sure, but the data heavily indicates that it is worse than citizens. The article clearly says there is serious crime coming from there, from people who shouldn't be here. Articles posted previously mentioned the financial deficit incurred. Is this no big deal? Should we just have open borders since we can throw together some numbers somewhere that show positive trends?

- We do not have open borders. The absence of a wall does not mean that our borders are open.
- There is nothing significant to conclude from all of this crime data about illegal immigrants pertaining to the wall. Crime is happening, and it's at typicals levels, it's not an epidemic. This voids any talk about needing a wall because of crime. It's based on fear more than logic or necessity.

So what is it now, that the police need reformed because they're killing innocent people or that the criminals in question commit crimes because of poverty and inequality? I REALLY don't want to turn this into a police debate.

Police need reform for a bazillion reasons. This is a police and court systems institution issue. Crime is driven by poverty, this is a muliltifaceted issue.

Those *questionable* individuals killed by police is miniscule. If it is siginficant enough for national change,

Yes, better training and applicable consequences are needed.

then I guess it would be just as effective if I showed you illegal immigrant individuals who violenty killed Americans.

Illegal immigrants aren't the police. It's completely unrelated.

- It is illegal. Illegal immigration is illegal just about everywhere on the planet. Yes. We don't argue much against illegals coming in, but we argue for whom are already here.
- There is a deficit on what the government spends on them vs revenue collected to the tune of tens of billions, maybe over 100 billion. This was discussed already. Yes. It's driven by income. Most of the population is operating at a deficit, nothing new here. They also contribute to businesses in a couple of unique ways, but again it's not a factor that we worry about. Albeit it would be nice to profit, wouldn't it.
- It is a country with known dangerous criminal activity. Even the Obama administration had travel advisories. Therefore, I believe it is in our best interest to not allow anyone to come over without passing our checks. Go back and read that article we were just talking about if you don't know this. That's fine. Don't need a wall though.

And the argument for illegal immigration is?

We don't argue for the people coming in, we care about the illegals already here. That's a different issue from the wall, now isn't it?

You can't convince us to want a wall idealogically or referencing something that isn't worth sweating. Illegal immigration is going down as it is, and jobs aren't a problem.

 

[WaterAstro]

Some people here just only want to care for themselves. Just like Trump.

 

[Composer]

C Composer Thanks for sharing that story, it was very touching and powerful. I can't say I understand what it must have been like, but thanks for the lens into your life. I must say, though, that from a higher, less emotional and personal level, I agree with a country having and enforcing laws regarding immigration. I think the idea of a Wall is a childish idea; a simple, concrete structure that is more symbolic than it is practical, so I'm not on-board with that. I must ask you, what is your perspective about how to best handle people in your situation? We have seen that it isn't a good idea in any country to have completely open borders, as this opens the system to abuses and various kinds of trouble with locals, cultures, etc. Regardless of what we may like to think in rosy terms, not all people are good, and not all cultures treat all people the same. In my view it is all very complicated, and should be handled rationally and with care.

When people talk about us Dreamers, sometimes the talk of crime and punishment comes up. How may we punish Dreamers? The thing is, for us, we feel like we've been punished for years now. I was 7 years old when I entered this prison, I was there for over 20 years. Think about that. For 20 years I led a life of incredible fear, sweat and shame; a life where I wasn't allowed to do the most basic things. I couldn't get a job; I couldn't even go to a bar, unless I brought a passport. My parents too. Except they are serving a life sentence. Its not easy for you to imagine what it was like. I can however. I can think of what it was like before and after. Its almost like living two different lives. As if got to live someone else's life for awhile. There was so much constant battling, and pain. Life was a constant struggle since the day I stepped into the US. And then one day, it was as if I was walking on air. Imagine for a second that you have no ID, no proof of yourself, no social security, no house, no car. And then, its not just for one day. Or A week. Its for over 20 years. You just have to find a way to survive and prove your worth. Educate yourself, and do the impossible. Each and every Dreamer has done that, by our very definition.

My verdict is to please accept us. That's all we've ever wanted. Deep down I'm still that 7 year old that just wanted to be an American. But even where I am now, I feel like I'll never be accepted. Ratify the Dream Act and accept us. The wall, tighter security, none of that really matters to us. Do you know I mean? You're asking someone who went hungry and didn't have his own bed until he was 20 years old if he cares about a wall, or about immigration quotas. Build it, don't build it. Tighten them, don't tighten them. But we're here starving, and we'll keep fighting to survive another day.

There's a humanitarian crisis in our country.

 

[pramod]

When people talk about us Dreamers, sometimes the talk of crime and punishment comes up. How may we punish Dreamers? The thing is, for us, we feel like we've been punished for years now. I was 7 years old when I entered this prison, I was there for over 20 years. Think about that. For 20 years I led a life of incredible fear, sweat and shame; a life where I wasn't allowed to do the most basic things. I couldn't get a job; I couldn't even go to a bar, unless I brought a passport. My parents too. Except they are serving a life sentence. Its not easy for you to imagine what it was like. I can however. I can think of what it was like before and after. Its almost like living two different lives. As if got to live someone else's life for awhile. There was so much constant battling, and pain. Life was a constant struggle since the day I stepped into the US. And then one day, it was as if I was walking on air. Imagine for a second that you have no ID, no proof of yourself, no social security, no house, no car. And then, its not just for one day. Or A week. Its for over 20 years. You just have to find a way to survive and prove your worth. Educate yourself, and do the impossible. Each and every Dreamer has done that, by our very definition.

My verdict is to please accept us. That's all we've ever wanted. Deep down I'm still that 7 year old that just wanted to be an American. But even where I am now, I feel like I'll never be accepted. Ratify the Dream Act and accept us. The wall, tighter security, none of that really matters to us. Do you know I mean? You're asking someone who went hungry and didn't have his own bed until he was 20 years old if he cares about a wall, or about immigration quotas. Build it, don't build it. Tighten them, don't tighten them. But we're here starving, and we'll keep fighting to survive another day.

There's a humanitarian crisis in our country.

Then you should be writing and calling your Congressman like Chuck Schumer to let Trump build his wall.
Schumer just said he is taking the wall off the table, which means most likely the negotiations for the DREAM Act will fail.

 

[Super Mario]

Stuff

Obviously we aren't going to settle this going back and forth. We've called for body cameras and lots of change has happened with policing. As it turns out, these body cameras aren't always producing the narrative that they hoped for. We're STILL having black people getting shot, and now even more clearly, we have better evidence of them being at fault.

We understand clear as day that there are some horrible, horrible people in Mexico. We understand that many of them sneak in. Yet, a physical border is a ridiculous concept and we are 100% sure of that. Especially so since they have been enforcing the borders better, and *some* people enter through other ways.

I remember when my parents would have a garden, and something would always come and eat the crops. They would put up small fences that would deter this activity. Little did I know at the time, that this was wrong. I should have monitored the activity, and show them line graphs that this was not needed. A bug could have flown in. An animal could have dug under. Therefore, the fence was pointless.

 

[llien]

A stupid question: why does Trump need Democrats, aren't Reps still in majority in Congress?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Oops

 

[Vicetrailia]

Obviously we aren't going to settle this going back and forth. We've called for body cameras and lots of change has happened with policing. As it turns out, these body cameras aren't always producing the narrative that they hoped for. We're STILL having black people getting shot, and now even more clearly, we have better evidence of them being at fault.

Body cameras/cameras exposed another problem: Even in situations where the cop is completely wrong, the cop can still often get off because the system (composing of many components) shields them.

I remember when my parents would have a garden, and something would always come and eat the crops. They would put up small fences that would deter this activity. Little did I know at the time, that this was wrong. I should have monitored the activity, and show them line graphs that this was not needed. A bug could have flown in. An animal could have dug under. Therefore, the fence was pointless.

This doesn't work. The wall is....costly, symbolically dubious, based on FEAR but not useful utility, negatively impacts the environment, forces some Americans to sell their own land to the government, isnt a part of efforts that are already working and therefore is too little, too late, and more. So now I'm just adding reasons that aren't that big of a deal, but there are more. I get it, you want zero illegal immigration from Mexico and use raping and pillaging illegals as an excuse to do it right now, but it's not convincing or necessary.

 

[generaldane]

A wall is like the solution a child would think of to prevent people who really want to from entering the country, its amazing to me that such a large population of the US people are so damn dumb to think this will work though I do suppose when dealing with dumb people you have to speak in terms they will understand so Trump may very well be a genius

 

[pramod]

A wall is like the solution a child would think of to prevent people who really want to from entering the country, its amazing to me that such a large population of the US people are so damn dumb to think this will work though I do suppose when dealing with dumb people you have to speak in terms they will understand so Trump may very well be a genius

That's the whole point of the wall, to discourage people except the most motivated ones from crossing the border illegally. No one has claimed it will stop 100% of illegal immigration. But the argument a wall is pointless because it won't stop 100% of illegal immigration is just as dumb as arguing we don't need to use condoms because it won't stop 100% of STDs.

 

[MazeHaze]

That's the whole point of the wall, to discourage people except the most motivated ones from crossing the border illegally. No one has claimed it will stop 100% of illegal immigration. But the argument a wall is pointless because it won't stop 100% of illegal immigration is just as dumb as arguing we don't need to use condoms because it won't stop 100% of STDs.

Yo, if people are contemplating immigrating illegally, they're already the most motivated. Uprooting your entire existence to go live in a country where you won't have any rights is a drastic thing to do. Most illegal immigrants didn't just run accross the border, and the ones who did will never be stopped by a wall. Tunnels, ladders, airplanes all defeat a wall, but most illegal immigrants are here on expired visas anyway. A wall is a giant waste of money, somebody would have to be as much of an idiot as Trump not to see that, and he's a massive idiot.

 

[deadscreensky]

Then you should be writing and calling your Congressman like Chuck Schumer to let Trump build his wall.
Schumer just said he is taking the wall off the table, which means most likely the negotiations for the DREAM Act will fail.

The problem here isn't the Democrats. Let's put the blame where it belongs: the Republicans are the ones blocking reform here, and have been for more than a decade. This lack of empathy, forgiveness, and charity is a stain on the Republican party and no one else.

 

[HoodWinked]

A stupid question: why does Trump need Democrats, aren't Reps still in majority in Congress?

Republicans have majorities in both chambers of Congress, but they cannot pass spending bills alone. In the Senate, a 60-vote supermajority is required to pass most major legislation, and Republicans control 52 seats.

just quoting a WP article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...2589434a581_story.html?utm_term=.34978b8512fe

 

[Moneal]

Republicans have majorities in both chambers of Congress, but they cannot pass spending bills alone. In the Senate, a 60-vote supermajority is required to pass most major legislation, and Republicans control 52 seats.

just quoting a WP article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...2589434a581_story.html?utm_term=.34978b8512fe

To piggy back off this. its really about Cloture and filibustering. To end a debate on a bill requires a 60% vote or in essence, since there are 100 senators, 60 votes. Here is a history on the subject from senate.gov

 

[generaldane]

That's the whole point of the wall, to discourage people except the most motivated ones from crossing the border illegally. No one has claimed it will stop 100% of illegal immigration. But the argument a wall is pointless because it won't stop 100% of illegal immigration is just as dumb as arguing we don't need to use condoms because it won't stop 100% of STDs.

What I am saying is that if anyone decide they are going to go to the US they are already suffienctly motivated enough to not make a wall that can be circumvented by a ladder or a tunnel stop them. Will it discourage some people? Probably but I am willing to bet the ones being disouraged are not ones that really wanted to leave in the first place.

 

[generaldane]

Yo, if people are contemplating immigrating illegally, they're already the most motivated. Uprooting your entire existence to go live in a country where you won't have any rights is a drastic thing to do. Most illegal immigrants didn't just run accross the border, and the ones who did will never be stopped by a wall. Tunnels, ladders, airplanes all defeat a wall, but most illegal immigrants are here on expired visas anyway. A wall is a giant waste of money, somebody would have to be as much of an idiot as Trump not to see that, and he's a massive idiot.

Should have probably just quoted your post haha, I think a lot of the people talking here about immigration don't have the slightest clue just how difficult it is to just up and leave everything and move to another country, having lived in serveral countries myself I know for a fact its not something an unmotivated person can do.

 

[pramod]

Tunnel digging and and giant ladders can be easily detected. Most people would not try to circumvent the wall that way if they know they will be easily caught.

 

[Super Mario]

Should we also just discontinue border checkpoints because motivated people are already circumventing that system? We spend lots of money on that, apparently it's a waste. While we're at it, let's stop enforcing other laws such as murder, because some people are still murdering.

Serious question guys. Do you legitimately believe that the net result between an area with a physical border and no border is zero?

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/borders-and-walls-do-barriers-deter-unauthorized-migration

Indeed, short sections of walls have also proved effective at decreasing movement across international borders. This was demonstrated in the 1990s on the U.S.-Mexico border when the first sections of fencing were built in El Paso and near San Diego, supported by large deployments of Border Patrol agents. In the weeks that followed, crossings in those sectors dropped to almost zero. Similarly, the construction of Hungary’s border fence in 2015 was backed up with border guards, and consequently, crossings dropped substantially.

However, in both cases fortified walls did not prevent crossings into the United States and European Union entirely, but instead shifted flows to other locations that were more remote or less fortified. In the U.S. case, as high-traffic urban routes were closed, migrants and smugglers began to cross in the remote and dangerous deserts of western Arizona.

Here is a real-world look at how walls have worked. Not a liberal pandering opinion. Not a born-yesterday view of deterrents.

The current policy that Trump is enforcing has already created a deterrent. Now the adding another physical deterrent once again changes the opportunity cost. If history has taught us anything, it's that this WILL prevent some illegal entry. It WILL push others to try other avenues. What are likely other avenues? Going over the wall, under the wall, around the wall. Efforts can be made to be ready for that including personnel and technology.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Should we also just discontinue border checkpoints because motivated people are already circumventing that system? We spend lots of money on that, apparently it's a waste. While we're at it, let's stop enforcing other laws such as murder, because some people are still murdering.

You misunderstand. Illegal immigrant murder from Mexico isnt an epidemic, it's along our normality. Citing violent crime statistics as alarming evidence that we need to build a wall and spend the money now is not convincing.

The current policy that Trump is enforcing has already created a deterrent. Now the adding another physical deterrent once again changes the opportunity cost. If history has taught us anything, it's that this WILL prevent some illegal entry. It WILL push others to try other avenues. What are likely other avenues? Going over the wall, under the wall, around the wall. Efforts can be made to be ready for that including personnel and technology.

Our goal is not zero illegal immigration, drugs, or crime from Mexico, especially not by any means necessary. Illegal immigration is already going down, and our current processes are pretty good. We know that having a wall will reduce further tresspassers, but we aren't alarmed. It's too little, too late.

Can someone tell me why people started caring about the wall in the first place? Did we care 30 years ago, did a recent epidemic happen, or are people just reacting to Trump who is reacting to DACA? Can we not hang onto the border because we are being overrun?

 

[Super Mario]

Our goal is not zero illegal immigration, drugs, or crime from Mexico, especially not by any means necessary. Illegal immigration is already going down, and our current processes are pretty good. We know that having a wall will reduce further tresspassers, but we aren't alarmed. It's too little, too late.

Illegal immigration is severely down under Trump's policies. Yet, he hasn't even fully enacted his plan. Comprehensive plans usually have multiple steps.

Can someone tell me why people started caring about the wall in the first place? Did we care 30 years ago, did a recent epidemic happen, or are people just reacting to Trump who is reacting to DACA? Can we not hang onto the border because we are being overrun?[/QUOTE]

Well, it has been an issue that has been talked about for a long time. Guys like this even agreed:

Then a candidate came around and said, look, the problem is still bad. We have upwards of tens of millions, we spend a lot of money on it, there are criminals here. I'm going to introduce a comprehensive plan that includes a physical wall. Somehow, it became crazy talk

 

[Airola]

Your house has walls. You probably lock the doors at night. While people can still break through windows and even break through the door, it's stupid to say the locks and the walls aren't effective in reducing the possibility of people breaking in to your house.

I don't get what's that big of a deal in building up the wall. It's not as if the wall is built inside a country to separate one side from another, as in Germany used to have. If a border wall is unnecessary and doesn't work, why not go ahead and tear down the already existing fences too? Was building the current fences a stupid thing to do too?

I guess people have stamped a symbol of racism to that wall because it's Trump who wants to do it and now all they see is that symbol they have stamped on the wall by themselves.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Your house has walls. You probably lock the doors at night. While people can still break through windows and even break through the door, it's stupid to say the locks and the walls aren't effective in reducing the possibility of people breaking in to your house.

I don't get what's that big of a deal in building up the wall. It's not as if the wall is built inside a country to separate one side from another, as in Germany used to have. If a border wall is unnecessary and doesn't work, why not go ahead and tear down the already existing fences too? Was building the current fences a stupid thing to do too?

I guess people have stamped a symbol of racism to that wall because it's Trump who wants to do it and now all they see is that symbol they have stamped on the wall by themselves.

Whats the point of a wall when its can't do 100% of the job? Wre you gonna staff x amount of people to watch the wall and make sure no one is coming over? Why not beef up whatever operation monitors who overstays their visa since thats where the most if the "illegal" immigration comes from. If you ask me, the focus on the wall is more about "eek mexicans" than it is about immigration.

 

[A Link to the Past]

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...egal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real

The first report found that criminal aliens, both legal and illegal, make up 27 percent of all federal prisoners. Yet non-citizens are only about nine percent of the nation’s adult population. Thus, judging by the numbers in federal prisons alone, non-citizens commit federal crimes at three times the rate of citizens.

The findings in the second report are even more disturbing. It reviewed the criminal histories of 55,322 aliens in federal or state prisons and local jails who “entered the country illegally.” Those illegal aliens were arrested 459,614 times, an average of 8.3 arrests per illegal alien, and committed almost 700,000 criminal offenses, an average of roughly 12.7 offenses per illegal alien.

The 2011 GAO report is more of the same. The criminal histories of 251,000 criminal aliens showed that they had committed close to three million criminal offenses. Sixty-eight percent of those in federal prison and 66 percent of those in state prisons were from Mexico. Their offenses ranged from homicide and kidnapping to drugs, rape, burglary, and larceny.

Still think of illegal immigrants committing less crime when you read that?



Arguments from the Washington post.... This argument basically says "A larger portion of black are killed as in relation to demographics. Therefore it must be racism." There is so much wrong with that statement. The black community also also a murder problem that is even more disproportionate. How does that factor in?




Look. He had an inspirational story. I'm glad it worked out for him, and he's living a better life. I really am. However, where do we draw the line between law and emotions? What if I wrote a story on how I robbed and burglared to pay for my sick son's cancer surgery (not true). I had good intent, and felt that I was wronged by the world. Am I eligible for court of emotions? This type of story is Liberal propaganda 101 (no offense to anyone here). Post an emotional story, and let it speak for why laws can be ignored.

I'm all for an immigration reform discussion. We have to remember though, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Trump is up for negotiating a form of DACA, wants law to be followed, and wants a physical border where we have a problem of a lot of people coming in illegally. That's not unreasonable. It's also not a bunch of white "I got mine" haters trying to keep everyone down. What is not reasonable is for disregard for rule and law.

The Democrats have messed up so badly on this issue. Their platform SHOULD be that our immigration laws are too strict and that causes an influx of illegal immigration. They could be fighting for amnesty and easier immigration. There are many compelling arguments to be heard on that stance. Yet, you go into their heartlands, and they fight for sanctuary cities, dedicated to keeping people illegal. We're supposed to ignore law because of some sad stories. That is not good policy, and you will never convince me otherwise.

Generally, what are the crimes these immigrants have been charged with by federal authorities?

 

[Airola]

Whats the point of a wall when its can't do 100% of the job? Wre you gonna staff x amount of people to watch the wall and make sure no one is coming over? Why not beef up whatever operation monitors who overstays their visa since thats where the most if the "illegal" immigration comes from. If you ask me, the focus on the wall is more about "eek mexicans" than it is about immigration.

The current "wall" there is doesn't do 100% of the job either. Would it be better if that fence didn't exist either? Should they remove the current fence? Is that fence also an "eek mexicans" thing?

The thing with the new wall is that there already exists a wall, or more like a fence, that is too easy to get through or climb over so people think it needs an upgrade.

 

[TheSadRanger]

It doesn't matter, I agree with other posters that the effects of ending DACA and keeping legal immigration from Mexico to the U.S so difficult are the major problems.

The wall is nothing more than an ineffectual government contractors dream. It is this decades Halliburton or Blackwater where private companies are licking their lips to get that non bid contract.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Illegal immigration is severely down under Trump's policies. Yet, he hasn't even fully enacted his plan. Comprehensive plans usually have multiple steps.

Can someone tell me why people started caring about the wall in the first place? Did we care 30 years ago, did a recent epidemic happen, or are people just reacting to Trump who is reacting to DACA? Can we not hang onto the border because we are being overrun?

Well, it has been an issue that has been talked about for a long time. Guys like this even agreed:

Then a candidate came around and said, look, the problem is still bad. We have upwards of tens of millions, we spend a lot of money on it, there are criminals here. I'm going to introduce a comprehensive plan that includes a physical wall. Somehow, it became crazy talk

The Clinton stuff is general border security talk, I'm not talking about that, or even really the San Diego border section (amongst others). The wall would be a speed bump in the dessert for a lot of money.

Now where Trump fucked up is using racism to get his point across. Half the country doesn't play that crazy talk.

 

[Super Mario]

Generally, what are the crimes these immigrants have been charged with by federal authorities?

http://www.gao.gov/assets/100/93167.pdf

Out of all of the arrests, 12 percent were for violent crimes such as murder, robbery, assault and sex-related crimes; 15 percent were for burglary, larceny, theft and property damage; 24 percent were for drug offenses; and the remaining offenses were for DUI, fraud, forgery, counterfeiting, weapons, immigration, and obstruction of justice.

You were probably expecting them all to be deportation and recreational marijuana because of racism, right? The amount of data out there that proves illegal immigration is a large problem is astounding. It's even more astounding how many think it isn't a problem.

 

[prag16]

Because Democrats don’t actually care about illegal immigrants,

They care insofar as they can eventually turn them into legal Democratic voters.

 

[Platinumstorm]

Someday, if the wall ever goes up, there will be a tear down of the wall. It will be embarrassing, but probably not as embarrassing as a large portion of the country denying that climate change is happening. Accept the stupid deal, gain a ton of new voters in a decade, then we can tear the wall down and put a mark of shame in the history books.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Looks like Democrats dropped DACA from negotiations.

President Donald Trump is proposing giving 1.8 million young undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship in exchange for $25 billion for his long-promised wall and a host of other strict immigration cuts, according to a framework proposed Thursday.

 

[WaterAstro]

Looks like Democrats dropped DACA from negotiations.

Meh, the next day, he said he never said such thing. lol

Trump is not a reliable source of news even if he is his own source.

 

[mr.dilya]

They should do a careful vetting of "dreamers," and the ones they allow to stay should face some type of monetary damages over time as a penalty for breaking the law, whether those damages be paid out in the form of garnished wages, fines, taxes or whatever....if they really want a wall the revenue generated from those fines can help pay for it.

Instead of a wall there should be an immigration cap per 5 year period. I don't know what the numbers are now but it should be decreased by at least 20-25%.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

They should do a careful vetting of "dreamers,"

They already do this. The "conditional residency" and (obviously) "permanent residency" stages both involve criminal background checks and have "good moral character" requirements.

and the ones they allow to stay should face some type of monetary damages over time as a penalty for breaking the law, whether those damages be paid out in the form of garnished wages, fines, taxes or whatever....if they really want a wall the revenue generated from those fines can help pay for it.

Under the DREAM act they weren't breaking the law. But why exactly should they pay a fine? Are you suggesting that upon turning 18, the DREAMers should've "turned themselves in", uprooted their lives, and left the US to go back to a country they've never been to before to live?

Their parents, who immigrated here illegally and brought their children with them? Sure, I can understand making an argument for some sort of penalty for them. But the kids? That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

To everyone who wanted to come here and did things the right way fuck you accoridng to the left.

I’m on board for the DACA people if we have security measures to ensure this never happens again.

Over 800,000 people holy fuck. Then you put in chain migration once their legal and that’s just mind blowing...

 

[Deleted member 12837]

To everyone who wanted to come here and did things the right way fuck you accoridng to the left.

Trump and the GOP are the ones placing additional restrictions on legal immigration and making it tougher. Not the Left.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Trump and the GOP are the ones placing additional restrictions on legal immigration and making it tougher. Not the Left.

No the left wants 800,000 ILLEGAL people to become citizens.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Someday, if the wall ever goes up, there will be a tear down of the wall. It will be embarrassing, but probably not as embarrassing as a large portion of the country denying that climate change is happening. Accept the stupid deal, gain a ton of new voters in a decade, then we can tear the wall down and put a mark of shame in the history books.

As if the Civil War wasn't an ugly enough mark of shame! Or lynchings. Or Civil Rights....

 

[rokkerkory]

No the left wants 800,000 ILLEGAL people to become citizens.

Trump’s newest offer is path to citizenship for these folk.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

No the left wants 800,000 ILLEGAL people to become citizens.

Says who?

Also, what’s your suggested solution? Deport all 800,000?

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Trump’s newest offer is path to citizenship for these folk.

With strings attached so we don’t have this same situation in years to come. The democrats? Fuck it let em in and well decided that later. Clean DACA bill they want without any compromise.

 

[deadscreensky]

No the left wants 800,000 ILLEGAL people to become citizens.

Almost everybody does, actually. Polling consistently suggests 80+% of Americans want Dreamers to have a path to citizenship. This is something that nearly everybody wants, regardless of where they stand on the political scale.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Almost everybody does, actually. Polling consistently suggests 80+% of Americans want Dreamers to have a path to citizenship. This is something that nearly everybody wants, regardless of where they stand on the political scale.

Again yes we want these people here, however we want things attached to giving clean amnesty:

No more diversity lottery (the fuck is that anyway...)
No chain migration for those granted amnesty
Beefed up border security

Everyone wants to find a way to grant these people as citizens just not blindly.