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[Mango The Magician]

I don't think you remember how jarring so many people found going from OoT Link to WW Link. I'm pretty sure changing Link's tunic, eye color, or whatever else would have resulted in less of an outcry than the direction they went with WW. The massive aesthetic difference introduced an entirely new way for people to imagine Link. I'd say that's pretty bold.

It Introduced a new, sorta, way to view Hyrule through a new artsyle, it's no different than Mario 64 vs Paper Mario.

 

[blankempathy]

I don't think you remember how jarring so many people found going from OoT Link to WW Link. I'm pretty sure changing Link's tunic, eye color, or whatever else would have resulted in less of an outcry than the direction they went with WW. The massive aesthetic difference introduced an entirely new way for people to imagine Link. I'd say that's pretty bold.

But link wasn't the primary focus of the change. They changed the art direction to fit their vision for the game. Link being cartooned was just something they had to do at that point. I don't anyone who played WW focused too much on link being the one who changed when the entire game was the one that was changed.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

No I understand the argument, I just do not think gender is one of the things that can change as it conflicts with what I consider Outside of the lore Link.

I don't mean to keep replying only to you, so I apologise if it comes across hostile in anyway.

So If I follow you right , when you think Link in a broad non game specific way you think of a green tunic, blond hair, and a guy, right ? And changing that aspect fundamental changes the character ?

But is that aspect really that important to the character? I understand that for a lot of characters changing their gender alters how we contextual and internalise those characters, put Link is a pretty vague and broad character and very little of what makes the character important, likeable or even just work has little to do with his gender.

Link isn't a particularly masculine character both from a visual point and his over arching characterises. His story's often have little to nothing to do with a masculine perspective at least not to the extent where he needs to be male for a lot of it to still work unaltered.

I guess the real question is, why is link being male important ?

 

[GRIP]

But link wasn't the primary focus of the change. They changed the art direction to fit their vision for the game. Link being cartooned was just something they had to do at that point. I don't anyone who played WW focused too much on link being the one who changed when the entire game was the one that was changed.

This seems like a really naive picture to take. "when the entire game was changed"..

 

[blankempathy]

This seems like a really naive picture to take. "when the entire game was changed"..

Art direction* Happy? Either way people thought it was going to change the overall tone of the game because it looked more cartoony.

 

[Heroman]

It Introduced a new, sorta, way to view Hyrule through a new artsyle, it's no different than Mario 64 vs Paper Mario.

Link is just like Mario, every through there have muilt Mario, they are still Mario.

 

[Pizza]

A gender option would be rad for a Zelda game. My gf would love that shit! And I'd probably play as girl link the first play through too for fun.

Even the legend that each game recaps only really mentioned that it was a green tuniced hero who did X without mentioning gender much at all. Unless they want to do some big story stuff that would be contingent on link's gender I don't see why a female character or option is bad at all.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I don't mean to keep replying only to you, so I apologise if it comes across hostile in anyway.

So If I follow you right , when you think Link in a broad non game specific way you think of a green tunic, blond hair, and a guy, right ? And changing that aspect fundamental changes the character ?

But is that aspect really that important to the character? I understand that for a lot of characters changing their gender alters how we contextual and internalise those characters, put Link is a pretty vague and broad character and very little of what makes the character important, likeable or even just work has to do with his gender.

Link isn't a particularly masculine character both from a visual point and his over arching characterises. His story's often have little to nothing to do with a masculine perspective at least not to the extent where he needs to be male for a lot of it to still work unaltered.

I guess the real question is, why is link being male important ?

When I think of Link in a broad view, I see him as a blondish haired (TLoZ and AoL still count), blue eyed, white, green tunic with sleeves and boots and a floppy green hat wearing, Hylian male. Much in the same way I view Peach as a blond (despite there being a redhead version of Peach), pink dress wearing, blue eyed, white Princess with blue earnings and a crown. As for what it'd change? well not much, a skintone would change the way he looks, but a gender most likely wouldn't, but seriously ask yourself something real quick. Would a change in gender really effect a character that doesn't repeat in the lore? Would it effect a character with a distinct back story and lore? I mean if tomorrow they swapped Samus with a dude version, no explanation why, would she be that different? Would the Other: M version even be different? The short answer is no, a gender does not determine the way a character can or cannot act, and even a character that doesn't repeat like Link could be swapped and still act like that character, hell several wouldn't even need to change the way they look, so I fail to see why Link is being singled out by the it wouldn't change anything group.

Link is just like Mario, every through there have muilt Mario, they are still Mario.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or if this is sarcasm, so could you please elaborate.

 

[zhorkat]

I never said they can't change the character. They can do whatever they want its not in my hands to control. I said they shouldn't make him a female because again theres simply no reason to change an established character. I've said that Link, even with multiple versions of him is still a singular entity that even though updated is the same. I feel like I'm the only one really putting thought into this in regards to what changing his character actually does. If you simply make him a female without acknowledging that hes a girl then its lazy. I think there should be more thought into just "well i want him to be a girl so lets make him one" Don't change characters just for the sake of change. Put meaning behind those choices. No one arguing for the change has said anything besides "why cant he be a girl". So when thats your argument because the "lore" allows it and you have nothing else to add except that then no thats not a good reason to make him female. Even with windwaker they made that choice for the world for a reason. It wasn't just a simple passing thought. Also you never answered my question.

I don't care about any of the ninja turtles. Here's one reason. Women and men are treated differently in society. Having Link be a woman can let them tell a story which combined with the other Legend of Zelda games tells a story about how men and women experience the world and are treated by the world. Now here's a question. Keeping Link a blonde, light-skinned male is also a choice that can be seen as lazy and being made without much thought. What real meaning is put behind that choice? Do you have a good reason other than you want it that way or because that's the way it's always been?

 

[sn00zer]

I would be surprised if Link wasnt a female or had customization options in the next LoZ.... the character has a fairly malleable personality...there are some characters that are defined by feminine (Samus) or masculine (Kratos) characteristics, but Link sure aint one of them

 

[FlowersisBritish]

A gender option would be rad for a Zelda game. My gf would love that shit! And I'd probably play as girl link the first play through too for fun.

I dunno. An option like that would be neat, and if they were going to do it they should put black characters as well(like pokemon) but Zelda isn't Pokemon. That said, since there's no voice acting pronouns are hella easy to deal with.

 

[Dion Blaster]

Yes. Sounds like the closest thing to a Sheik character action game we'll get!

 

[FlowersisBritish]

Yes. Sounds like the closest thing to a Sheik character action game we'll get!

A Sheik Character action game done by Platinum is now what I want. Why don't I have this?

Spoiler

Can Platinum just make all of Nintendo's games from now on? Especially since Retro's doing squat

 

[Darryl]

Link isn't a particularly masculine character both from a visual point and his over arching characterises. His story's often have little to nothing to do with a masculine perspective at least not to the extent where he needs to be male for a lot of it to still work unaltered.

I guess the real question is, why is link being male important ?

My answer to this question is in that paragraph up top. Link isn't very masculine at all. Nor is the entire series. The Legend of Zelda in my experience has been incredibly gender neutral, despite having a male lead. Most of the people I know who day #1 the games are female and I never see dudes dressed up as Link. There are strong females all over the place inside of the games. I think if they changed Link just for the sake of it, it'd be forcing it. The game doesn't need it.

 

[blankempathy]

I don't care about any of the ninja turtles. Here's one reason. Women and men are treated differently in society. Having Link be a woman can let them tell a story which combined with the other Legend of Zelda games tells a story about how men and women experience the world and are treated by the world. Now here's a question. Keeping Link a blonde, light-skinned male is also a choice that can be seen as lazy and being made without much thought. What real meaning is put behind that choice? Do you have a good reason other than you want it that way or because that's the way it's always been?

Except you're assuming that the zelda games have had good enough writers to do what you're saying justice. Even though LoZ games have stories they're generally weak and focus on the characters dungeons/exploration to keep a story going. Keeping a character true to their roots is lazy? Should they make a new protagonist in mario just because its different? Its the same deal here. Theres no compelling choice on why Link should be a female. I already said my meaning on why I dont think you should change a character. Change for the sake of change isn't a good enough reason. I really don't care that link is blonde or white etc but thats simply how he looks. Had link originally been black or a girl and people wanted to changed that suddenly 28 years later just because I'd have issues with that too.

 

[Mango The Magician]

My answer to this question is in that paragraph up top. Link isn't very masculine at all. Nor is the entire series. The Legend of Zelda in my experience has been incredibly gender neutral, despite having a male lead. Most of the people I know who day #1 the games are female and I never see dudes dressed up as Link. There are strong females all over the place inside of the games. I think if they changed Link just for the sake of it, it'd be forcing it. The game doesn't need it.

Yeah Zelda's like one of the first mythologies I was introduced to to have literally all of the utmost important deities be Goddesses.

I don't care about any of the ninja turtles. Here's one reason. Women and men are treated differently in society. Having Link be a woman can let them tell a story which combined with the other Legend of Zelda games tells a story about how men and women experience the world and are treated by the world. Now here's a question. Keeping Link a blonde, light-skinned male is also a choice that can be seen as lazy and being made without much thought. What real meaning is put behind that choice? Do you have a good reason other than you want it that way or because that's the way it's always been?

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but even if we got one, femLink would not be treated all that differently by anyone in Hyrule than regular Link, so if you're saying that she would be and they'ed capitalize on that (don't know if you are or not so sorry) they wouldn't, as Hyrule (and all Nintendo games) is/are practically gender neutral.

 

[Heroman]

When I think of Link in a broad view, I see him as a blondish haired (TLoZ and AoL still count), blue eyed, white, green tunic with sleeves and boots and a floppy green hat wearing, Hylian male. Much in the same way I view Peach as a blond (despite there being a redhead version of Peach), pink dress wearing, blue eyed, white Princess with blue earnings and a crown. As for what it'd change? well not much, a skintone would change the way he looks, but a gender most likely wouldn't, but seriously ask yourself something real quick. Would a change in gender really effect a character that doesn't repeat in the lore? Would it effect a character with a distinct back story and lore? I mean if tomorrow they swapped Samus with a dude version, no explanation why, would she be that different? Would the Other: M version even be different? The short answer is no, a gender does not determine the way a character can or cannot act, and even a character that doesn't repeat like Link could be swapped and still act like that character, hell several wouldn't even need to change the way they look, so I fail to see why Link is being singled out by the it wouldn't change anything group.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or if this is sarcasm, so could you please elaborate.

Mario from paper Mario is the same as Mario from 3d world who is the same as Mario Mario kart who is the same as Mario in punch out. Link is the same , despite being different dude they still are the same character.

 

[Nerokis]

It Introduced a new, sorta, way to view Hyrule through a new artsyle, it's no different than Mario 64 vs Paper Mario.

But link wasn't the primary focus of the change. They changed the art direction to fit their vision for the game. Link being cartooned was just something they had to do at that point. I don't anyone who played WW focused too much on link being the one who changed when the entire game was the one that was changed.

Come on, guys. Yes, the overall art direction in WW was a significant departure from series precedent. How does this change, though, that this also applies to WW's Link specifically? The point I'm making with this example is that WW's Link went in a dramatically different direction from how anyone imagined him at the time. That represented an evolution of the character far more significant than the various details (such as eye color) being debated in this thread. You've done nothing to rebuke that by bringing up, of all things, Mario 64 vs. Paper Mario - games that aren't even within the same series.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was actually a drawing of Toon Link that resulted in WW's art direction. Not the other way around. They talked about that in an Iwata Asks.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Come on, guys. Yes, the overall art direction in WW was a significant departure from series precedent. How does this change, though, that this also applies to WW's Link specifically? The point I'm making with this example is that WW's Link went in a dramatically different direction from how anyone imagined him at the time. That represented an evolution of the character far more significant than the various details (such as eye color) being debated in this thread. You've done nothing to rebuke that by bringing up, of all things, Mario 64 vs. Paper Mario - games that aren't even within the same series.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was actually a drawing of Toon Link that resulted in WW's art direction. Not the other way around. They talked about that in an Iwata Asks.

All I'm saying is that physically no traits of Link were changed going from OOT to WW, the game got a new art style, which changed the way the characters of Zelda looked, but nothing about Link was actually changed.

Mario from paper Mario is the same as Mario from 3d world who is the same as Mario Mario kart who is the same as Mario in punch out. Link is the same , despite being different dude they still are the same character.

So you're agreeing with me. Right?

Sorry, the internet is a confusion thing at times.

 

[Heroman]

All I'm saying is that physically no traits of Link were changed going from OOT to WW, the game got a new art style, which changed the way the characters of Zelda looked, but nothing about Link was actually changed.

So you're agreeing with me. Right?

Sorry, the internet is a confusion thing at times.

Im agreeing with you.

 

[blankempathy]

Come on, guys. Yes, the overall art direction in WW was a significant departure from series precedent. How does this change, though, that this also applies to WW's Link specifically? The point I'm making with this example is that WW's Link went in a dramatically different direction from how anyone imagined him at the time. That represented an evolution of the character far more significant than the various details (such as eye color) being debated in this thread. You've done nothing to rebuke that by bringing up, of all things, Mario 64 vs. Paper Mario - games that aren't even within the same series.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was actually a drawing of Toon Link that resulted in WW's art direction. Not the other way around. They talked about that in an Iwata Asks.

because hes basically young link as a cartoon? I mean you can say the same thing about the change from a link to the past to ocarina of time because thats a shift in how you view your character from the 2d to 3d perspective.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

When I think of Link in a broad view, I see him as a blondish haired (TLoZ and AoL still count), blue eyed, white, green tunic with sleeves and boots and a floppy green hat wearing, Hylian male. Much in the same way I view Peach as a blond (despite there being a redhead version of Peach), pink dress wearing, blue eyed, white Princess with blue earnings and a crown. As for what it'd change? well not much, a skintone would change the way he looks, but a gender most likely wouldn't, but seriously ask yourself something real quick. Would a change in gender really effect a character that doesn't repeat in the lore? Would it effect a character with a distinct back story and lore? I mean if tomorrow they swapped Samus with a dude version, no explanation why, would she be that different? Would the Other: M version even be different? The short answer is no, a gender does not determine the way a character can or can act, and even a character that doesn't repeat like Link could be swapped and still act like that character, hell several wouldn't even need to change the way they look, so I fail to see why Link is being singled out by the it wouldn't change anything group.

Yes the vast majority of Samus's back story pre-other m would be largely unchanged if she was a man ( although there's a probably a lot to be said of how super would play out if Samus was a man)

But Samus being a woman plays a large role in her cultural relevance , that twist that Samus is a women despite a having a completely un-gendered default armour along with the fact her gender is never brought up, played a large part in her appeal , she was in a small way a feminist icon.

If she was a dude then nobody would care, though space marines are a dime a dozen and she has little characteristics to latch on to. Most of what I just said doesn't apply to other m, but we must have played different games if you don't think Samus gender affected how that game played out

Changing Samus gender changes an awful lot more than Links

My answer to this question is in that paragraph up top. Link isn't very masculine at all. Nor is the entire series. The Legend of Zelda in my experience has been incredibly gender neutral, despite having a male lead. Most of the people I know who day #1 the games are female and I never see dudes dressed up as Link. There are strong females all over the place inside of the games. I think if they changed Link just for the sake of it, it'd be forcing it. The game doesn't need it.

Need is a funny think when talking about art and entertainment you often don't need lots of stuff , that doesn't stop it from being important and meaningful.

But the funny think is you glanced over my main point, if links gender isn't important , why can't it be changed ?

 

[rex]

Good on you for recognising the issue with your earlier remarks. Sorry but I'm really not following what you're saying in the bolded section at all. No-one is saying that individual Links aren't all male characters, just that they don't have to be. It's not about "making Link into an avatar" either, because Link is an archetype, not a character, but the individual representations of that archetype are already fairly blank slates. If every single Link was characterised in such a way that masculinity could be said to be a defining part of the archetype, then you could say that although technically a new Link could be female, it wouldn't fit with the character. As it stands though, most representations of Link are barely developed as characters, and masculinity is hardly a defining feature when they are.

Basically, the factors you're listing are different parts of the same conversation; some are about the impacts (or lack thereof) of making such a change, others about why such a change is a good idea. If I were to break down my own viewpoint (arguing that Link's gender and skin colour should be customisable by the player) it'd be something like this:
Why - Diversity is needed. It would also better fulfil the developer's stated goal of allowing the player to feel like they are the character.

What are the downsides - None. Link is an archetype with numerous independent depictions, not a character, so no reboot of continuity or abandonment of previous character development would be required. Visual design wouldn't change much at all. Story and gameplay would be similarly unaffected partly because, as mentioned, Nintendo already design the games with the goal of player projection in mind.

When you and Discoid say that the need for diversity overrides the other factors i can respect your thought process.

But when you say that link is not a character, and with such certitude, its astounding to me.

This is, my apologies but im going to use the word character, this is a character who most of us grew up with. Its a character that has such value to us he can appear in other games and those games become more appealing. The character has real meaning to a lot of us and to see him dismissed, and all of us essentially accused of being crazy ( or worse), is one of the stranger things ive encountered here.

None of the nintendo characters have much character. Theyre all pretty simple. They became important to us on the strength of their games, and the unique charm nintendo pours into their them. Loving a nintendo game often means loving the characters in them. I thought that applied to the zelda series as well. It certainly does for me.
When you tell me that in the name of diversity link has to change, well how does one argue against that? I dont want a different main character in this series. This series is link and ganon and zelda to me. Id be annoyed by the change. Thats a downside to me. If that makes me insensitive or blind to the bigger picture then Im not sure what to say. I never thought id have to essentially sacrifice a favorite character in order to advance a social goal. Im a little dumbfounded by the whole thing actually.

As for link not being a character, and that each link is different and smash bros doesnt count, well, none of your arguments make sense. You say link is an archetype, yet hes instantly recognizable based on visual cues. You say hes got no character, but few nintendo characters do. You say that nintendo is about player projection even though they actually do very little in that area. You say that there are specific links, yet everyone just calls him link. We literally could not, and would not be having this conversation if link werent a famous character. The reason you want link to change is precisely because hes famous, and it would be big story if there was a female link. Your deep concern about this proves the point.

I appreciate that Discoid cut thru the bs and explained succinctly why he wants this. Its a lot easier for me personally to evaluate his argument when i dont have to rebut amazing claims like link isnt a character. Saying that is not only untrue, but an unnecessary hurdle to any real understanding here.

 

[PKrockin]

but seriously ask yourself something real quick. Would a change in gender really effect a character that doesn't repeat in the lore? Would it effect a character with a distinct back story and lore?

There is reason to besides media representation to make Link a girl--to make Link have a certain background that would play into the way she interacts with the world/story.

You can say that's stupid because nobody cares about Link's background and it doesn't matter usually, but what about Link being a Kokori? Did OoT not benefit at all from Link's background being a bit more defined?

You could then say that you could give Link the exact same background as Nintendo's theoretical female concept communicated through the world and to the player in the exact same way without making her female which I'm just going to say is wrong.

If we're talking about an optional pronoun switch, why are you so opposed to it that here on page 23 you're still at this? I mean damn how many posts have you made on this?

To both of you, Toon Link's eye colors are not actually black it's an art style thing, I mean unless you consider Classic Sonic's eyes as canonically black despite that we now know that they're green or Paper Mario's eyes black despite knowing that Mario's eyes are blue. As for the color it shades to in WW, Shiggy said greenish not green, the actual color is a dark cyan which can easily be considered blue just as much as it can be considered green, so yeah.

Also let's stop being in denial about differences in physical appearance/attributes please, the developers themselves determine canon and they said black with green. End of story. SS Link is right-handed even if you want to dismiss it because of motion controls. He is still right-handed. I'm not going to say another word on it.

 

[Daingurse]

Sure, I don't have any attachment to Link as he is.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

You can say that's stupid because nobody cares about Link's background and it doesn't matter usually, but what about Link being a Kokori? Did OoT not benefit at all from Link's background being a bit more defined?

Eh, not really. Virtually no one cared about Link being Kokori, in the story. It really didn't matter either in the long run. I wouldn't say it helped the story at all, rather it was just a little something to fill out the empty space. Not much else.

 

[Nerokis]

because hes basically young link as a cartoon? I mean you can say the same thing about the change from a link to the past to ocarina of time because thats a shift in how you view your character from the 2d to 3d perspective.

I'm sure you wouldn't deny OoT played a massive role in how people see Link.

The differences between the two situations, though, are obvious enough. WW and TP released on the same hardware, but out of those, WW's Link is the most aesthetically distinct by far. They're fairly similar if you boil them down to costume details or whatever, but TP's Link catered to the precedent OoT set, whereas WW's Link subverted it. And this shows in how people reacted to them. Just read this Iwata Asks. Toon Link was a big deal.

 

[rex]

From the dictionary: character, a person in a novel, play, or movie. Thats the only requirement. Im gonna take a chance and add videogames to the list.

 

[Darryl]

Need is a funny think when talking about art and entertainment you often don't need lots of stuff , that doesn't stop it from being important and meaningful.

But the funny think is you glanced over my main point, if links gender isn't important , why can't it be changed ?

I never said the gender wasn't important. I actually really enjoy Link as a character and his androgynous characterization. As a guy who isn't particularly manly, he's one of the more relateable characters to me. I don't think it's necessary for everything to be split sharply down gender lines.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

All I want from the Zelda series is a gender select option like Pokemon, and I'm honestly angry and depressed that the series doesn't have said option. It should have been an option since the SNES days in my opinion.

The creators and current people involved with the series have said time and again that "Link" is an avatar, an iconic one for sure, but still just a blank slate for the player to project his or her own self into the world that "Link" inhabits. If this is the case, who can object to a gender option? Adding one takes nothing away and only adds to the enjoyment to the experience. I know my experience would greatly go up if I could play as a female "Link" called Maria because that's who I am. Any game that asks me to enter my name as the main character's name should have gender options, to be honest.

I actually feel a bit excluded from the game because of the current way "Link" is handled. The games always tell me to enter my name, and it feels personally insulting for me to have to play as a boy/man with my name and people in game using male pronouns (I'm a transwoman). I'm not saying it's the developers being malicious, nor am I "triggered" by this, I just feel sad and it really ruins some of my experience when playing Zelda games. I always have to play as "Link" as Link, an empty shell, one that I can't connect to in the current way the games' stories and philosophies are presented.

The Zelda games were never about "Link" saving day from the forces of evil, it was meant to be about you, the player, saving the day from the forces of evil. "Link" is meant to be you, it's meant to be a representative of you. That's how it was meant to be, and I can't feel that as long as the games are still forcing me to be male. I like Zelda games, but I just want to feel the full experience, and giving me the option to have a female "Link" would make me enjoy the series more.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Eh, not really. Virtually no one cared about Link being Kokori, in the story. It really didn't matter either in the long run. I wouldn't say it helped the story at all, rather it was just a little something to fill out the empty space. Not much else.

Did We play different games ? The fact that link isn't actually a kokori is something the game plays with a lot. link is repeatedly made to fell like an outsider as most characters don't particularly care for him for reasons they never make clear, although the I'm pretty sure someone calls link "different" from him and his friends. The idea that link isn't "one" of the many is further highlighted when you return seven years later and nobody recognises him, they never find out and your gone almost as soon as you came

The game goes out of its way to make that location feel un-homely in stark contrast to the opening of the game

I never said the gender wasn't important. I actually really enjoy Link as a character and his androgynous characterization. As a guy who isn't particularly manly, he's one of the more relateable characters to me. I don't think it's necessary for everything to be split sharply down gender lines.

... So why can't his gender be changed ?

 

[PKrockin]

Eh, not really. Virtually no one cared about Link being Kokori, in the story. It really didn't matter either in the long run. I wouldn't say it helped the story at all, rather it was just a little something to fill out the empty space. Not much else.

Saying virtually no one cared about shit like Link returning to Kokori Forest as an adult and his old friends not even recognizing him, adding to the feeling of isolation building since becoming an adult and stepping out into the devastated world... nah, I don't buy that people don't appreciate details adding to the atmosphere like that. They might not have noticed it, but their brain did.

From the dictionary: character, a person in a novel, play, or movie. Thats the only requirement. Im gonna take a chance and add videogames to the list.

Dictionary definitions? OK, fuck this, I'm out. I'm used to Zelda discussions being stupid, but this is the point where I have to bail for the sake of my own sanity.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Just had an idea

What if Nintendo made a Zelda game, where you could choose from seven playable characters

Deku Link
Zora Link
Goron Link
Hylian Link
Gerudo Link
Kokiri Link
Sheikah Link

Basically, each character would "come into being" as a legendary hero (after having grown up). Each character would have the same dungeons and bosses, but different play styles and (some) different weapon types. They would also have different story POVs and different events. Beating the final boss as one character would get you one of the eight endings (the eighth ending being the ultimate result of the actions of every incarnation of Link).

 

[rex]

Saying virtually no one cared about shit like Link returning to Kokori Forest as an adult and his old friends not even recognizing him, adding to the feeling of isolation building since becoming an adult and stepping out into the devastated world... nah, I don't buy that people don't appreciate details adding to the atmosphere like that. They might not have noticed it, but their brain did.


Dictionary definitions? OK, fuck this, I'm out. I'm used to Zelda discussions being stupid, but this is the point where I have to bail for the sake of my own sanity.

Bye

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yes the vast majority of Samus's back story pre-other m would be largely unchanged if she was a man ( although there's a probably a lot to be said of how super would play out if Samus was a man)

But Samus being a woman plays a large role in her cultural relevance , that twist that Samus is a women despite a having a completely un-gendered default armour along with the fact her gender is never brought up, played a large part in her appeal , she was in a small way a feminist icon.

If she was a dude then nobody would care, though space marines are a dime a dozen and she has little characteristics to latch on to. Most of what I just said doesn't apply to other m, but we must have played different games if you don't think Samus gender affected how that game played out

Changing Samus gender changes an awful lot more than Links.

So the only thing that would change would be how people view Samus, nothing in the game would change, right? Because I played Super and I fail to see what would change if Samus was changed. In fact any Nintendo character could be changed in their gender and I doubt a damn thing would change, so I fail to see why Link is the only one being attributed to this idea.

There is reason to besides media representation to make Link a girl--to make Link have a certain background that would play into the way she interacts with the world/story.

What background could they utilize with a female Link, explain it to me.

You can say that's stupid because nobody cares about Link's background and it doesn't matter usually, but what about Link being a Kokori? Did OoT not benefit at all from Link's background being a bit more defined?

Yes and that was accomplished without actually changing Link, interesting isn't it?

You could then say that you could give Link the exact same background as Nintendo's theoretical female concept communicated through the world and to the player in the exact same way without making her female which I'm just going to say is wrong.
If we're talking about an optional pronoun switch, why are you so opposed to it that here on page 23 you're still at this? I mean damn how many posts have you made on this?

I already said that I'd take a optional thing long before I took whatever the OP wants. As for the eye thing, the quote you linked to said greenish, the actual color in game is still greenish while being also blue, funny how colors work isn't it?

 

[Darryl]

... So why can't his gender be changed ?

I'm not saying it can't. I'm saying it shouldn't.

 

[Skux]

I don't care either way, as long as the character has voice acting.

 

[DragonGirl]

Not really no. Link is an established character to me (despite Nintendo insisting he's just the player avatar). I'd be perfectly happy to see the LoZ cast grow to include more diverse characters but let them be new characters, not just Miss dark skinned Link with a bow.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

So the only thing that would change would be how people view Samus, nothing in the game would change at though, right? Because I played Super and I fail to see what would change if Samus was changed. In fact any Nintendo character could be changed in their gender and I doubt a damn thing would change, I fail to see why Link is the only be attributed to that.

You don't think a game that explores ideas of motherhood would change if the main character was a guy ?

 

[KenOD]

I'm open to a game with Zelda or a new character, I'd prefer new character looked new and weren't piggybacking off designs of other characters. (do not bring up the lore, I'm talking from a perspective outside of it. Referring to Link as singular from a marketing/design perspective.)

That was just a general musing on my part. I'm generally interested if a Legend of Zelda game would sell as well if it contained the core of what people want from a Legend of Zelda game with combat and puzzle focus, but contained no Link. Likewise would people end up simply calling someone Link or it wasn't Link, just really similar? Could Nintendo market it in a way so that people would not call a female or plant or robot green tunic wearing sword user something other than Link.

I may make a separate thread about that someday.

I too am against the idea of such a "piggyback", having originally made the case for character creation or a brand new title of equal quality with a new character or an existing female character of equal quality and similar/better gameplay that stays true to the core ideas of the genre (a la Ms. Pac-Man or Devil May Cry and Bayonetta). Unless of course it's another Wind Fish dream and it imagines Marin to be more like Link, simply because I would enjoy playing that and seeing a slightly different Koholint Island. I would even content with a Castlevania style of a swap system or Sonic 3 & Knuckles where you travel and combat mostly the same.

However I will state this. If it came down to it and the only thing we could get is a brand new female character who is simply the marketing character of Link, just a different name and gender obviously, I would accept because my daughter would still really like to see a game about a green wearing, sword wielding, puzzle solving destined hero that is female as that would make her happy and excited.

With other posts that have come up since the one i just quoted. This is not based on a "I want others to be mad", no "change for the sake of change", but because a young female gamer would get a lot out of a female character and the Legend of Zelda offers the opportunity more than any other game from Nintendo and is one of the few in this style of gameplay still around, and the only that gets a certain level of quality since Beyond Good and Evil (and even that wasn't quite up to the same level in my eyes). Mario can wear different clothes, Mario can "act" in different "movies" as the reasoning for each game being so different, but it's always the same Mario whether he is the villain against Donkey Kong or missing in time or visiting another princess or behind the scenes age from baby to adulthood. Link is simply more open and presents a far easier opportunity for change, because even to those who argue each incarnation is roughly the same (which I understand and agree with), the idea of change is ever present and leaves things open to being different in some way or fashion. The idea change can happen means it's easier to imagine a female Link could occur, and even if not likely, it's more likely than Samus as a male or Captain Falcon as an actual falcon or Shulk being voiced by a Welshman and calling himself English despite James Bond being born in Scotland... sorry got off track there.

Saying virtually no one cared about shit like Link returning to Kokori Forest as an adult and his old friends not even recognizing him, adding to the feeling of isolation building since becoming an adult and stepping out into the devastated world... nah, I don't buy that people don't appreciate details adding to the atmosphere like that. They might not have noticed it, but their brain did.

The way people discussed and tried to set up the history of Legend of Zelda before Nintendo gave an official history more than shows people cared about such things as this, or what was said in the manual for the N.A. version of the game.

 

[zhorkat]

Except you're assuming that the zelda games have had good enough writers to do what you're saying justice. Even though LoZ games have stories they're generally weak and focus on the characters dungeons/exploration to keep a story going. Keeping a character true to their roots is lazy? Should they make a new protagonist in mario just because its different? Its the same deal here. Theres no compelling choice on why Link should be a female. I already said my meaning on why I dont think you should change a character. Change for the sake of change isn't a good enough reason. I really don't care that link is blonde or white etc but thats simply how he looks. Had link originally been black or a girl and people wanted to changed that suddenly 28 years later just because I'd have issues with that too.

So do you think the series being more inclusive to women is a compelling reason?

 

[FlowersisBritish]

Did We play different games ? The fact that link isn't actually a kokori is something the game plays with a lot. link is repeatedly made to fell like an outsider as most characters don't particularly care for him for reasons they never make clear, although the I'm pretty sure someone calls link "different" from him and his friends. The idea that link isn't "one" of the many is further highlighted when you return seven years later and nobody recognises him, they never find out and your gone almost as soon as you came

The game goes out of its way to make that location feel un-homely in stark contrast to the opening of the game

Saying virtually no one cared about shit like Link returning to Kokori Forest as an adult and his old friends not even recognizing him, adding to the feeling of isolation building since becoming an adult and stepping out into the devastated world... nah, I don't buy that people don't appreciate details adding to the atmosphere like that. They might not have noticed it, but their brain did.

eh, fair. What I meant was more akin to story significance. These are kind of isolated events that don't leave that respective area, but that is a thing that can be said of meeting the Gordons and the Zora as well. Still, atmosphere is pretty important and I wasn't really thinking about the recurring theme of being an outsider, which now that I think about was a pretty big theme in the game throughout. So I take it back, it did help.

 

[Mango The Magician]

You don't think a game that explores ideas of motherhood would change if the main character was a guy ?

Could the themes not just be paternal?

 

[Toxi]

The Hero's Shade could easily be part of TP Link that manifested to ease his regrets, and all of OOT Link's actions prior to leaving for the past are not erased from the timeline when he leaves, meaning WW Link could easily just be reincarnated from OOT Link prior to him leaving the timeline, sorta in a means of creating a copy and using that, this could also explain why Link didn't show up to fight ganon before WW; the system that reincarnates Link encountered an error and had to fix it which caused a delay.

This is entirely speculation on your part, there's no definite source that even says he reincarnates, he and every other major or minor (Malon, Epona, the damn Owl) Zelda character just happen to show up in each game without an explanation.

I've gone cross-eyed.

 

[blankempathy]

So do you think the series being more inclusive to women is a compelling reason?

And that cant be achieved with a female protagonist thats not Link or a playable Zelda? Nintendo makes games for all people of genders and ages so leaving a series true to its roots instead of changing Link to appease the fans isn't good enough reason to change him.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I've gone cross-eyed.

The first post is operating under the assumption that he does reincarnate/get reborn or something similar, the second is merely stating that the assumption is just speculation and is not canonically confirmed. As in, I subscribe to the idea that he's reborn, in a stricter sense than the avatar series, but I also acknowledge that it's not confirmed.

 

[zhorkat]

And that cant be achieved with a female protagonist thats not Link or a playable Zelda? Nintendo makes games for all people of genders and ages so leaving a game as its been isn't the worst thing ever.

The main character is Link. Why change it to be someone other than Link?

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Could the themes not just be paternal?

Yes , but that would be different and it would change how you interpret and contextual the narrative and the writers (if you can call them that) knowing that would make changes in order to get the intended response.

Samus relationship with the infant metroid would have played out different especially when the initial plot point is based around the idea of Samus having "motherly" instincts (I know there's a word for that, I just can't spell)

I'm not saying it can't. I'm saying it shouldn't.

Fine... If link being masculine isn't an important characteristic

... Why shouldn't they try a female one ?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yes , but that would be different and it would change how you interpret and contextual the narrative and the writers (if you can call them that) knowing that would make changes in order to get the intended response.

Samus relationship with the infant metroid would have played out different especially when the initial plot point is based around the idea of Samus having "motherly" instincts (I know there's a word for that, I just can't spell)

Listen the plot of Super is barely there, and motherhood, at least I think, could easily just be swapped with strong fatherhood, I don't see why a scene with no actual text and just a couple of sprites would be effect.

 

[blankempathy]

The main character is Link. Why change it to be someone other than Link?

Because you're arguing that link is an avatar so why does link have to be the playable avatar in this case? Since you think its fine to overhaul a character to make people happy why not just shift the star of the story instead?