...It really doesn't look like it does. Clearly the in-game lighting sources are not bouncing light so I guess the skylight? but that could easily be just some baked ToD.
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Would you be happy if "Next-Gen" games looked like this ?
- Thread starter AngelSoldier
- Start date
...It really doesn't look like it does. Clearly the in-game lighting sources are not bouncing light so I guess the skylight? but that could easily be just some baked ToD.
I learned a new term today: radiosity simulation! I guess that's the source of the extra "oomph" I couldn't quite put my finger on in the Zelda tech demo.
I H8 Memes
Member
Does anybody have a link to those art shots made with Cryengine? In particular the Blade Runner screen.
I thought the day/night transition made it pretty clear the tech demo was using global illumination, or some damned good trickery at the very least. Watch how the colors react/bounce in both day and night.
Nothing is bouncing though. There's some well tapered point lights in the scene and they look good, don't get me wrong but there's no bounce lighting in the scene. From what I've seen all they had was 2 states and a directional light from outside through the windows.
I just don't see the radiosity. I've watched different videos over and over and I just don't see it. I see point lights with excellent fall-off
Pachterballs
Banned
that FFXIII video looks great on the bluray/tv. too bad we're playing a game and not watching a movie.
Its CGI level, next gen won't look like CGI. you need processing grunt for AI/physics/simulation etc etc. Real world tech demos + high end PC titles are the best bench mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXyztq_0uM
My pick. I'll be very happy if it looks like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzjsTt_DzCw&feature=related
Witcher 2 has some great artists that made it look really nice, but he tech itself isn't anything special.
For nextgen we'll probably see some newer shaders like sss, blurry relections, blurry transparency (AKA translucency), and linear energy conservation shaders. We've already seen realtime previews of nicer post effects and GI.
More objects will be dynamic and possibly have basic soft body collisions in realtime. There's a lot of promising middleware that will help with creating more realistic animations automatically.
More polygons, more objects, longer draw distances.
Most everything else is going to be subtle and it's going to vary depending on the game.
For nextgen we'll probably see some newer shaders like sss, blurry relections, blurry transparency (AKA translucency), and linear energy conservation shaders. We've already seen realtime previews of nicer post effects and GI.
More objects will be dynamic and possibly have basic soft body collisions in realtime. There's a lot of promising middleware that will help with creating more realistic animations automatically.
More polygons, more objects, longer draw distances.
Most everything else is going to be subtle and it's going to vary depending on the game.
AngelSoldier
Banned
I'm not trying to say what next-gen graphics SHOULD look like, or are going to look like.
I was just curious about what people wanted, and if the best looking FMV's I've seen would be good enough ...
Pachterballs
Banned
you're posting FMV. You might as well start posting shit from any modern CGI movie and say "will you be happy for this for next gen", but realisticly, you won't be getting cgi level visuals
AngelSoldier
Banned
There's a big difference between Square FMV, and fucking Hollywood Optimus Prime level CGI.
Stop being such a fuckin' hard ass.
Your still completely missing the point ...
Simplified, the OP was a yes or no question.
I just feel its a waste of time. All the time and resources spent to make every building in a game explorable seems like a waste to me especially if most of them dont actually lead to anything which would more than likely be the case. With all the ballooning budgets and development times this generation, I can only imagine something like this being such a pain in the ass with very little payoff.
Id rather they spend that time making sure the main game is as polished as possible without having to worry about every house looking perfect for the few OCD gamers that will feel compelled to enter each one.
But my overarching point is that gamers need to stop asking for all of this extra stuff. We can move onto those things when developers perfect all of the basics. You can have photorealistic graphics all you want but if Im still walking around with body parts stuck on my chest and watching textures load throughout cutscenes then its all moot in my eyes.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
So is that a method for calculating radiosity in real-time without needing an insane amount of processing power? The time it takes to building my lighting in UE3 is a total bitch, but having actual radiosity makes a world of difference.
Doesn't Crytek have a real-time method that works fairly well?
Was there confirmation it was real time? Almost every game uses some form of global illumination these days.
how about we get this for real next gen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wig-XT8Rbiw
my opinion
- no next gen game should be released until it is 1080p @30 locked at least with no baked lighting
- more bigger environments
- more complex animation system
- lots of real-time destruction
- more detailed textures
- more complex real time lighting engines
- grass that looks like grass
in short what we were promised this gen but most games could not get there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wig-XT8Rbiw
my opinion
- no next gen game should be released until it is 1080p @30 locked at least with no baked lighting
- more bigger environments
- more complex animation system
- lots of real-time destruction
- more detailed textures
- more complex real time lighting engines
- grass that looks like grass
in short what we were promised this gen but most games could not get there
If I were in-charge of the PS4 reveal, I would spend lots of time trying to get that original Killzone trailer running in real-time, as close as possible (it will have been a very long time since people saw it anyway, so it wouldn't need to be identical). Show it as a joke, then stop it, and reveal it's the first real-time demo of a PS4.
That'd go down very well.
uh no, not in realtime
baked lighting onto environment textures - sure
colored lights driven by proximity - sure
gobo light maps - sure
low res light map sampling for static objects - sure
...but no actual realtime colored bounce light that responds directly to moving geometry, colors, and lighting on the fly
People would flip that around so easily. That would go absolutely horrible for them.
Crytek uses Reflective Shadow Mapping to populate a grid of virtual point lights. called a light propogation volume. in game time they only do it for the sun but during the shadowing pass instead of just gathering the depth it actually renders a diffuse value for the surfaces that the light sees. It takes this data pumps it into the scene and then the light propogates through the cascaded grid in the appropriate direction.
Frostbite 2 uses Enlighten to calculate radiosity, I think they precompute a visibility map over simplified geometry then sample the scene to generate a number of light points, at which point they use that data to build a low resolution lightmap (again over simplified geometry), blur that stuff and you've got a low freqency radiosity result. Dynamic and small objects do not contribute to this result and are lit by sampling/interpolating from light probes that are created with the radiosity lightmap. This can in fact be cumulative, achieving multiple bounces by taking your last frame's radiosity lightmap and using it when you're sampling the lighting in the scene to generate the next lightmap. Again it doesn't interact with dynamic lights such as flashlights or gunfire.
Bioshock infinite purports to have a dynamic relighting system but I have no idea what that entails.
http://www6.incrysis.com/Light_Propagation_Volumes.pdf
Used in Crysis 2 although I believe console versions had a less costly baked alternative.
Gunmonkey36
Member
Would I be happy with it?
Yeah I would enjoy it if everything looked like a fmv. Not if it always looked like the artists at Square did it, but if the same quality was kind of a standard that would be nice.
This won't happen, but that is fairly obvious.
Yeah I would enjoy it if everything looked like a fmv. Not if it always looked like the artists at Square did it, but if the same quality was kind of a standard that would be nice.
This won't happen, but that is fairly obvious.
I don't think so. Assuming it wasn't the only thing shown. If they literally just did that, people would say things along the lines of "six years too late" or whatever, but I think it'd be a cool reveal, and it'd poke fun at some of their broken promises, which shows humility, and they could do with that.
Yeah that one too...it still looks good but it could be a lot better with new tech (increase in texture details, more particle effects, better lighting etc) because KZ2 and KZ3 surpassed that trailer in some ways. But the MS CG, has not been even touched.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
So basically what you are saying is that high-accuracy radiosity still has a massive processing power demand and the only current feasible methods use sort of "cheats" to get the effect across?
So global illumination is nothing special in the zelda demo.
Seems to just be the quality of the art and shaders making it look good?
GrayFoxPL
Member
Btw E3 2005. Give me this level of detail and I will be happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRhSmjPDtqw
Not gonna happen.
((Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Well it looks like it's using HDR lighting, that alone puts it above KZ2/3's.
Bad IK by design? LOL.
The second part is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGUVM4gehD8
The good stuff starts at 0:40 (Geomerics-like indirect lighting/shadows).
---
BTW, where are you guys getting that the Zelda demo is using realtime GI? It could be just regular baked lighting with light probes for the characters and point lights for the torches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD2lmN3RdEA
The day night transition is a load screen, no realtime changes in illumination occur in the video.
The GI in CE3 works OK only for very low-frequency lighting and is calculated for the sunlight only (it's not used in the console versions of Crysis 2). Also, the "glossy reflections" part of their LPV solution was dropped :/
Fortunately the engine supports image-based lighting (it takes only a second to bake the HDR cubemaps needed for it) which is a world of difference compared to the crappy uniform ambient lighting in CryEngine 2. Plus you get consistent HDR reflections too. No indirect shadows, though.
What I'm saying is that when it comes to rendering everything is cheats. Radiosity in and of itself is a cheat just like ambient occlusion is a cheat. They're simplified manners of generating some global illumination information.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Ah, ok.
And I wasn't using cheats in a negative manner. So long as a cheat looks convincing, that's all that matters.
That is what I've been saying. I'm pretty sure the torches are just point lights or the ones near the wall would have some more interactions.
Indeed. I think my favourite 'real-time' sim is this crazy hand
Voxels are the future all hail voxels.
also something I saw recently with wildly inaccurate results but better performance cost
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1XZvtzfkLo
iamshadowlark
Banned
The fact that you use "bad" like it isn't an objective opinion is hilarious. But surely you work at ND and just know they were to dumb to use any other solver right? Theres no other reason at all.
Hm, perhaps. Im just taking into consideration how immature gamers are these days. Its sort of a weird message too: "We missed the mark last gen and didnt make good on our promises... but we'll do it this time and heres how!!!"
I do agree that it would be a cool reveal though. Id rather they take the original motorstorm trailer though. I still dont think the original KZ video looked all that good personally.
It's a load screen in that video, probably because it was running on autopilot, but the day-night change can be done in real time on the controller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KiZ6Cd1j8U
You can see it around 55 seconds I think.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It's the guy who did the engine for Wreckless. He likes his lighting.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Yes, but would I want us all to foot the bill for that? Not so much.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Global illumination is what the Hedgehog Engine uses, right? Where light reflects color off of objects, so like a red ball on a white table has the table slightly red around the ball?
Brofist
Member
It's obvious it comes down to preference at this point. I haven't seen any SE stuff that looks as good as Blizzard's, but that's just me.
Brofist
Member
I would too, since it would save me money from having to buy one that could be used toward my PC.
That is one aspect of global illumination yes.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Floating and skating characters = bad IK. Not opinion, fact.
I saw the same problems in Rogue Squadron 3 in the gamecube. For reference, Wind Waker does it right.
Thanks for the link. Doesn't really prove much because it's a toggle between night/day, not a proper transition. It could be just turning the lightmap on/off.
Indeed, so far nothing this gen has matched his realtime HDR IBL demo:
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/
Yes.
pseudocaesar
Member
Wow, now that Nintendo games are going to have graphics, the insanity from the fanboys is going crazy.
I mean really...bats? Best lighting ever? Zelda tech demo on par with Samaritan? Wtf.
I mean really...bats? Best lighting ever? Zelda tech demo on par with Samaritan? Wtf.
CamHostage
Member
You're really still impressed by the Killzone 2005 target render, huh? There are certainly things it does that would be very cool to see in realtime implementation (the animation and character density is aces, I love how vehicle explosions worked, and the fire effect is pretty cool though it's just as 'cheaty' as other in-game fire effects... I think I like the real Killzone 2 fire better.) For the most part though, this clip is showing its age for me finally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsNudumdzzg&feature=player_detailpage#t=131s
As beautiful as that clip is, the level of detail doesn't seem completely foreign to me. Fight Night and other games have similar sweat effects and multi-layer texturing. Detailing down to the goosebumps is pretty amazing, but it's still kind of pasticky. (I'm trying to think of games with amazingly realistic face texturing, but Heavy Rain has aged, Uncharted and Mass Effect are stylized, and LA Noire is not at all amazingly-realistic face-textured... I can think of lots of good-looking games, but few that pride themselves in just raw texturing and modeling like this Tekken clip, they're all about effects sweetening.) The musculature and the fluidity of moving flesh flexing and reverberating on the Tekken teaser is where next-gen could blow me away.
Funny, you'd think games like Tekken (which only have the two characters and then their small box of an environment) would showcase the bleeding edge of next-gen gaming, but Tekken and Soulcalibur this gen have been massive visual disappointments to me.
Oh hells yes.
Kitschkraft
Member
This discussion (About graphics in general) is getting more difficult for me personally, because most of the things I like have nothing to do with image quality, and more to do with attention to detail and animation.
For the most part, I want the characters to look very good. Hair, eyes, lips, skin textures, clothing, animation...all extremely important. I like the characters to look like real humans, with a diversity of movements and behaviors. Everyone shouldn't run, walk, make facial expressions, the same damn way every time. Small little details are going to start to be more important anyways, as games start looking better, we'll begin to notice more and more when the studio is just copy and pasting different skins on the same skeleton.
I guess I'm in the minority in that 30 fps (Stable) is fine for me, I look at 1080p as something that some will be able/have funds to do and others will not next gen but will eventually be the standard so nothing to really discuss. I don't think I've ever noticed screen tearing without it being pointed out. AA is something I can live with if it's in the distance, up close things should be smooth. Pop in should be completely a thing of the past.
One thing that bothers me is that none of this is actually going to matter too much to me personally if we only have like 5 different genres again. I don't *need* good characters for a shooter really, the difference between Battlefield and MW3 means nothing to me even though one looks better. The kinds of things I want with the characters would only seem to be relevant with like adventure games or something, or some new, undefined, non-violent, human focused genre (I guess Heavy Rain is close, but I really dislike QTE's).
I think this image looks incredible, for what it's worth.
For the most part, I want the characters to look very good. Hair, eyes, lips, skin textures, clothing, animation...all extremely important. I like the characters to look like real humans, with a diversity of movements and behaviors. Everyone shouldn't run, walk, make facial expressions, the same damn way every time. Small little details are going to start to be more important anyways, as games start looking better, we'll begin to notice more and more when the studio is just copy and pasting different skins on the same skeleton.
I guess I'm in the minority in that 30 fps (Stable) is fine for me, I look at 1080p as something that some will be able/have funds to do and others will not next gen but will eventually be the standard so nothing to really discuss. I don't think I've ever noticed screen tearing without it being pointed out. AA is something I can live with if it's in the distance, up close things should be smooth. Pop in should be completely a thing of the past.
One thing that bothers me is that none of this is actually going to matter too much to me personally if we only have like 5 different genres again. I don't *need* good characters for a shooter really, the difference between Battlefield and MW3 means nothing to me even though one looks better. The kinds of things I want with the characters would only seem to be relevant with like adventure games or something, or some new, undefined, non-violent, human focused genre (I guess Heavy Rain is close, but I really dislike QTE's).
I think this image looks incredible, for what it's worth.
Every gen before has surpassed the quality of Square's FMV from the previous gen. I do agree that next gen it likely won't happen if those new Xbox specs are to be believed. We'd have to leave it up to Sony at this point, but something tells me the Wii was just too much of an influence on the big three console manufacturers, and we will likely just get slightly upgraded current gen tech.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
that's running on a 360 at 30 fps. he says right in his video discription.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E why that title says 720 is beyond me.