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Young Blacks Voice Skepticism on Hillary Clinton, Worrying Democrats

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This is more of an indictment of how dumb and ignorant and entitled some of these youths are than anything about Hillary.

False equivalency is just pure intellectual laziness
 

Armaros

Member
Yeah but I don't think I've seen it in such force before. These are informed, politically active individuals who would rather not vote, or vote against their best interests, just because their only realistic options are not pure enough.

Don't get me wrong, this attitude has always existed, but it's strange seeing it come from such a well informed and active group.

Just using the exempts from the article. Not very informed, most of the complaints are about her talking 'only' about Trump and ignoring all the other policy speeches she has given but not nationally covered by the media.

Only way for people to pretend she is just anti-Trump is if you just look at her big speeches and say that's it.
 

El Topo

Member
I continue to be worried at the youths inability to grasp the complexity and mechanisms of how our political system works and the ease with which they put up false barriers that hinder their own causes, like making false equivelncies that promote inaction and undermine their cause.

...though I guess this is nothing new but it does seem to be more pronounced. Then again it may just be because of the Internet and advances in polling.

Anyone unwilling to vote for a candidate who stands against a monster like Trump deserves what they get if he wins. I understand (as a European to some extent) the frustration young people have, but when there is even the tiniest chance someone like Trump could win, there is no excuse not to vote.

(Monster here is not used as an insult, but as an exaggerated political term.)
 

Seeya

Member
And that polling still means jack shit. Why do people continuing latching into this as if it means anything?

No it doesn't. The groups that Bernie performed well in weren't disproven by the primary nor is there any logical reason to doubt the current polls. Unless you want to try and debunk (or unskew if you're a Republican), you're just being straight up unscientific.

The most non-attacked candidate that was not the front runner and was losing handily and yet being supported indirectly by the opposing party was polling well?

Relatively speaking he was the most non attacked, but he was attacked. Repeatedly.

If general election polling during that time frame were accurate we'd be coming off Mitt Romney's first term right now.

During that time frame implies that Bernie doesn't still poll better than Hilary in a hypothetical GE currently. And no, polls that are a ways out aren't garbage or worthless, the are still valuable in determining trends and baselines.
 
They're free to stay home at not vote, however, as a minority myself, I can't even begin to fathom how other minorities think the two are even remotely similar.

One would want you dead if they could, the other one wouldn't.

That's the cold, hard truth.

Hilary is friends with KKK members & was friends with Donald Trump......just because she isn't overtly racist doesn't mean she's not
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
You've literally said nothing.

Don't have much to say on this. This thread is going to go the same way every single thread here goes when mild criticisms/concerns are levied toward Clinton.

She's a wildly unpopular candidate. The Democrats were playing with fire by pushing the old, rich, white woman to the forefront because #itsherturn. She personifies privilege and it's fucking bizarre to see you guys trip over yourselves to coddle her.

She'll win. Keep calling people who don't toe the line ignorant fools, though. This is how you grow a party.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Hillary Clinton is a shit ass candidate and the Democrats would be trounced in November if the Republicans didn't nominate a literal clown.

I'll be voting for Hillary in November. Nuance. Stop blaming the weakness of your party on the people. It's pretty gross.
Your realize our political system is a two way street right?

Ask yourself this, why is the party the way it is? If one of your conclusions doesn't at least contain major critiques of the electorate, you need to keep digging.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Just using the exempts from the article. Not very informed, most of the complaints are about her talking 'only' about Trump and ignoring all the other policy speeches she has given but not nationally covered by the media.

In some fairness, Clinton has been adopting the strategy of "shut up and let Trump hit itself". She can't then fairly turn around and claim that she isn't getting much coverage; she's largely been avoiding it. She needs to try and capture some headlines.

Honestly, I'm so glad she's running against Trump and not someone competent.
 

Armaros

Member
No it doesn't. The groups that Bernie performed well in weren't disproven by the primary nor is there any logical reason to doubt the current polls. Unless you want to try and debunk (or unskew if you're a Republican), you're just being straight up unscientific.



Relatively speaking he was the most non attacked, but he was attacked. Repeatedly.

He was handled with the most soft of political kid gloves.

He attacked near the end way more then he was event slightly touched.
 

Boke1879

Member
The data doesn't said they're voting for Trump. The data says a sampling of this very specific demographic--Blacks in their mid 30s and younger--aren't as enthused with Hillary as projected.

Sure. They aren't enthused. I'll admit she's not exciting. Anyone expecting another Obama anytime soon will be disappointed. That said I won't be shocked if they still turn out to vote for her.

This month Clinton and her cabal of Bill, Bernie, Kaine, and Biden will be out in force. Not to mention Obama in October and maybe Michelle in between.

The debates are the next phase in all of this. Right now a lot of the shit we are seeing and hearing is mostly noise. The first debate will have eyes on it and voting opinions will be formed after that if not already.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Why won't the democratic primary end? 😞

Because it wasn't really about the primary. This isn't 2008, where Clinton and Obama were essentially identical candidates with slightly different packaging. Clinton and Sanders were fundamentally different and represented entirely different political forces that powered them. Those political forces are still active and are causing the same disagreements. The Democratic Party is straining at the seams in a way it simply wasn't 8 years ago.
 
Politically engaged and yet not paying attention? I guess ignoring all the plans she has talked about but the national media has ignored is her just talking about Trump.
The degree to which people insist Clinton doesn't have any plans and is just running as an anti-Trump is infuriatingly dense.

Her first major speech as a presidential candidate (in this current election cycle) was on race issues ffs.

The fact is most people simply don't pay attention to what candidates are running on and often project their own beliefs onto candidates they like. How many people assumed Obama wanted to end the Afghanistan war, legalize pot, supports single-payer etc just because he's "the cool one"?

Hell even now you'll see people (a lot of them on NeoGAF!) rail against Clinton for her initial support of TPP but then whine that we can't have a third term of Obama. Are there even any US politicians besides him who publicly support it?

The narrative flips on Clinton because her public persona isn't super personable or charming, so people instantly assume the worst of her "actual" positions. Who cares if she's been championing something for forty years, it's all a part of her nefarious plot to get elected and sell America out to big business. She'll do a complete reversal on every single issue she's running on either because it benefits corporations or just because it's evil like she is.

Tl;dr people are morons. I used to be a somewhat smug liberal who laughed at how dumb conservatives were except this primary season has completely jaded me on many on the left as well, and I say this as someone who voted for Bernie.
 

Armaros

Member
In some fairness, Clinton has been adopting the strategy of "shut up and let Trump hit itself". She can't then fairly turn around and claim that she isn't getting much coverage; she's largely been avoiding it. She needs to try and capture some headlines.

Honestly, I'm so glad she's running against Trump and not someone competent.

So in other words more email, and foundation media talk because that's really all that gets covered?

How many speeches has the national media covered between the two candidates since the conventions?
Do you really think she has only given those anti-trump speeches and nothing else?
 

entremet

Member
Sure. They aren't enthused. I'll admit she's not exciting. Anyone expecting another Obama anytime soon will be disappointed. That said I won't be shocked if they still turn out to vote for her.

This month Clinton and her cabal of Bill, Bernie, Kaine, and Biden will be out in force. Not to mention Obama in October and maybe Michelle in between.

The debates are the next phase in all of this. Right now a lot of the shit we are seeing and hearing is mostly noise. The first debate will have eyes on it and voting opinions will be formed after that if not already.

I think people are misreading the article, though.

It's not about Hillary losing. The NYT has her at over 80 percent winning the GE.

It's analyzing an aberrant trend and why this may be the case.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Because it wasn't really about the primary. This isn't 2008, where Clinton and Obama were essentially identical candidates with slightly different packaging. Clinton and Sanders were fundamentally different and represented entirely different political forces that powered them. Those political forces are still active and are causing the same disagreements. The Democratic Party is straining at the seams in a way it simply wasn't 8 years ago.

You obviously don't remember 8 years ago then.
 

Hindl

Member
Unfortunately there's no real way to change that sentiment. She's just gotta get into office and prove that she's representing and fighting for everyone she says she will. Until then they have a right to be skeptical
 
What alt-right website lead you down this path?

I'm not a conservative, republican or white. All i'm saying is birds of a feather flock together.

donald-hillary-800.jpg

jpeg-640x349.jpg
 

Boke1879

Member
It's hilarious to see a lot of Hillary supporters trying to dictate how people should feel about her......

It's also funny how the "buster" movement still thinks Bernie should be the candidate even though he lost fair and square.

This shit is noise. Most of Bernies voters are voting Clinton. Most AA voters are voting Clinton. This isn't going to change.

and barring some catastrophe. Trump is losing. He has no real clear path to victory. He's losing most major demo's.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I've felt it's a combination of several factors. The e-mail/Clinton Foundation smear campaign (and a lot of it Hillary's own doing) has definitely had a recent effect in the polls the last couple of weeks. I would imagine part of it is you have a lot of conservative leaning fence sitters that were gravitating towards voting Hillary, but the recent news stories have made them more comfortable voting Trump again, even if that train of thought is illogical. The debates should negate that, I think.
I think Trump's faux appeal to black voters will work to an extent distilling the concerns of white voters who feel uncomfortable voting for a racist.
Krugman wrote something on this recently. It's no different than Swift Boat or the attacks on Gore, except Hillary has been attacked for far longer in the same way. It amounts to repeatedly asking, "Are you guilty of X?" so much that people stop caring that the answer is always "No."
If you're in your 20's now, unless you're from NY, and even then, you grew up basically being told she's a liar and cannot be trusted under any circumstances. If you yell something loud enough for long enough it enters the subconscious and you just assume it's true, even with no proof.
We're getting closer to "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
Only Rocky actually got the shit beat out of him and almost won...
Side note: Rocky was shitty boxer until Rocky III but no one ever called him out on it (I watched I-IV and Creed last weekend)!
 

Seeya

Member
Right now maybe, but I think Bernie would really struggle during and post debates.

You might be right, though I think his 'stick to the basics, appeal to what centrists and lefts want to hear and speak with conviction' style of 'debate' would actually have been pretty effective in the debates against Trump. There's going to be a lot of petty distracting noise with the Hilary/Trump debate due to all the baggage Hilary has (and consider that the moderator said 'I will let the candidates lie') which will get away from the core strength that the Democrats hold over the Rupiblicans, that being that their policies and outlook are much more popular with the mainstream.
 
Don't have much to say on this. This thread is going to go the same way every single thread here goes when mild criticisms/concerns are levied toward Clinton.

She's a wildly unpopular candidate. The Democrats were playing with fire by pushing the old, rich, white woman to the forefront because #itsherturn. She personifies privilege and it's fucking bizarre to see you guys trip over yourselves to coddle her.

She'll win. Keep calling people who don't toe the line ignorant fools, though. This is how you grow a party.

It's her turn because she won against the competition. It's real simple, and It's up to you to actually articulate why that's a terrible thing, leaving out emotion and gut feelings, but with specifics, her qualifications, and the policies she campaigning on. Go ahead. (and try not to use alt-right rhetoric while do so, like some fervent anti-Hillary lefties tend to do).

I'm not a conservative, republican or white. All i'm saying is birds of a feather flock together.

donald-hillary-800.jpg

I'm sorry, but have you been paying attention at all?
 

Boke1879

Member
So in other words more email, and foundation media talk because that's really all that gets covered?

How many speeches has the national media covered between the two candidates since the conventions?
Do you really think she has only given those anti-trump speeches and nothing else?

She laid out an amazing Mental Health plan that got ignored by the media because Trump.
 

S2G_Chris

Member
I still think Clinton is going to win once its all said and done. But i actually think the skepticism of her is a good thing. Shes done things that warrant that skepticism IMO.

And ive always found the argument of "A vote for anyone besides Hillary is as good as a vote for Trump" to be somewhat silly. The train of thought behind it is "The Trump supporters have made up their minds and cant be saved"? Because wouldnt that imply that would mean his numbers are stagnant? But they've been dropping, so that cant be true.

Oh well, feel the Johnson 2016
 

Tain

Member
speaking of false equivalencies, I gotta wonder how long until someone busts out the "alt left" chestnut
 

ShdwDrake

Banned
I'm going to vote but I have no idea who for I'll probably decide when I get there. But I don't really feel it matters if Hilary wins or if Trump wins.

I normally make a chart to vote based on a few issues (and more as the candidates bring them out). But there is too much BS from both sides we are pretty fucked either.

And both Hilary and Trump supporters are the same. "Hilary is evil and lair." or "Trump is evil and a racist."

And tbh after living on this earth as a black man being a racist isn't as bad as being a lair. (I'm not saying that Hilary is a lair the statement just points out how the argument rolls for me like I said I don't like either.)
 
It's her turn because she won against the competition. It's real simple, and It's up to you to actually articulate why that's a terrible thing, leaving out emotion and gut feelings, but with specifics, her qualifications, and the policies she campaigning on. Go ahead. (and try not to use alt-right rhetoric while do so, like some fervent anti-Hillary lefties tend to do).



I'm sorry, but have you been paying attention at all?

Paying attention to the shots they've been taking at each other? Of course....I believe it's theatre.
 

Caelus

Member
It's hilarious to see a lot of Hillary supporters trying to dictate how people should feel about her......

I take it you're not one? Regardless, you're doing the same:

Hilary is friends with KKK members & was friends with Donald Trump......just because she isn't overtly racist doesn't mean she's not

No shit, her supporters are trying to encourage people to vote for her by addressing arguments. The point is to influence opinion, whether it be emphasizing her good points, addressing misconception or pointing out the how horrible the other option is. Much more nuanced than, well, posting an old pic of Hillary and Trump together.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
It's hilarious to see a lot of Hillary supporters trying to dictate how people should feel about her......

Been going on for months and like their candidate they don't care to examine actual reason why people might feel shitty about her.

Super predator or bring to heel comments plus a nasty crime bill do that
Being a wall street shill does that
Being a zionsist shill does that
Having a foundation with some shady benefits her family and her plutocractic blue ilk does that.

I keep seeing this false equiv BS. Last time I checked trump never pulled the shit in libya that she did. Dark people shouldn't trust her on the merits of looking at her history alone and how they will get used for a purpose that she will benefit from while they might end up dead, without a job or end up in jail. Funny people want to say with trump you will lose everything, what does that say about suckers asking for 2nd serving from a clinton.
 

Ihyll

Junior Member
Some of these fucking replies

Wow...

After all of the shit Trump has said about minorities and what he would do to the supreme Court and the economy....

We still have people saying both are the same and it doesn't matter who wins...

Jesus fucking Christ....
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
It's her turn because she won against the competition. It's real simple, and It's up to you to actually articulate why that's a terrible thing, leaving out emotion and gut feelings, but with specifics, her qualifications, and the policies she campaigning on. Go ahead. (and try not to use alt-right rhetoric while do so, like some fervent anti-Hillary lefties tend to do).

Like I said, same shit different thread. I'm not here to convince you to hate Hillary Clinton. I said I'm voting for her for fuck's sake. Stand down.

You motherfuckers talk about young liberals and their insistence on "purity" then pop off with this "just shut up and vote for Hillary" nonsense.
 
I'm not a conservative, republican or white. All i'm saying is birds of a feather flock together.

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2016/news/160314/donald-hillary-800.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://www.sickofyourcrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/jpeg-640x349.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

I don't follow horrible Republican memes *posts horrible Republican meme*
 

Boke1879

Member
I'm going to vote but I have no idea who for I'll probably decide when I get there. But I don't really feel it matters if Hilary wins or if Trump wins.

I normally make a chart to vote based on a few issues (and more as the candidates bring them out). But there is too much BS from both sides we are pretty fucked either.

And both Hilary and Trump supporters are the same. "Hilary is evil and lair." or "Trump is evil and a racist."

And tbh after living on this earth as a black man being a racist isn't as bad as being a lair. (I'm not saying that Hilary is a lair the statement just points out how the argument rolls for me like I said I don't like either.)

Vote based on the candidate. Don't look at their supporters. Hillary has put forth some good policy and plans this cycle. Just compare it to Trump and you'll have your answer.

I understand she's not exciting or even liked. But for me personally I don't care if I like the person or not. I'll look at their policy and vote based on that, and to me Hillary gets my vote by a large margin. If even for the simple fact I don't trust Trump with the office of the President.
 
I take it you're not one? Regardless, you're doing the same:



No shit, her supporters are trying to encourage people to vote for her by addressing arguments. The point is to influence opinion, whether it be emphasizing her good points, addressing misconception or pointing out the how horrible the other option is. Much more nuanced than, well, posting an old pic of Hillary and Trump together.

I'm not trying to actively discourage anyone from voting for Hillary, I don't care who wins.

I just hate it when people try and belittle how other people feel and think because they have reasonable concerns about something.
 

Armaros

Member
NeoGAF is the #5 referrer to hillaryclinton.com, no one should take anything Hillary supporters here say about Hillary seriously.

Oh look that old primary talking point chestnut has returned.

Why not go all the way and talk about Shills and CTR?

You went halfway already.

You realize we were also the #4 referrer to Bernie's campaign website too right? Or are you just going to ignore that fact because it doesn't help you with your argument.

It's literally the Reddit CTR and shills talking point without outright saying it
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
NeoGAF is the #5 referrer to hillaryclinton.com, no one should take anything Hillary supporters here say about Hillary seriously.

You realize we were also the #4 referrer to Bernie's campaign website too right? Or are you just going to ignore that fact because it doesn't help you with your argument.
 
I'm going to vote but I have no idea who for I'll probably decide when I get there. But I don't really feel it matters if Hilary wins or if Trump wins.

I normally make a chart to vote based on a few issues (and more as the candidates bring them out). But there is too much BS from both sides we are pretty fucked either.

And both Hilary and Trump supporters are the same. "Hilary is evil and lair." or "Trump is evil and a racist."

And tbh after living on this earth as a black man being a racist isn't as bad as being a lair. (I'm not saying that Hilary is a lair the statement just points out how the argument rolls for me like I said I don't like either.)
oiNMU02.gif
 

Balphon

Member
I'm not trying to actively discourage anyone from voting for Hillary, I don't care who wins.

I just hate it when people try and belittle how other people feel and think because they have reasonable concerns about something.

There are reasonable concerns to have about Clinton.

Posting a picture of Donald Trump's wedding and a photoshopped picture of Robert Byrd as if they speak for themselves is not an airing of reasonable concerns.
 
I'm not a conservative, republican or white. All i'm saying is birds of a feather flock together.

donald-hillary-800.jpg

jpeg-640x349.jpg

You do know Sen. Byrd disavowed his time in the KKK and shit the NAACP put out this at the time of his passing:
WASHINGTON, DC - The NAACP is saddened by the passing of United States Senator Robert Byrd. Byrd, the longest serving member of congress was first elected to the U.S. House from in 1952 and was elected Senator in 1958. Byrd passed away this morning at the age of 92.

"Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation," stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous. "Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.
http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/naacp-mourns-the-passing-of-u.s.-senator-robert-byrd/


But sure be a complete fucking idiot about it.
 
Like I said, same shit different thread. I'm not here to convince you to hate Hillary Clinton. I said I'm voting for her for fuck's sake. Stand down.

You're voting for her, and yet seem adamant about throwing her under the bus whenever possible? You clearly understand whats at stake here, so what's the purpose of emotional outburst about how "terrible" she is?
 
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