gutter_trash
Banned
Hillary was Left of Obama domestically.
Only on foreign affairs was she mainstream
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Biden disses Clinton: I never thought she was a great candidate. I thought I was...'
- Thread starter TangoAlphaLima
- Start date
Only on foreign affairs was she mainstream
Angelus Errare
Banned
It sure as hell wouldn't have been as progressive, and lord knows how much everyone harped on how not progressive hillary was.
funkystudent
Member
Given the circumstances I dont think anyone other then the biggest of assholes would not understand him not running.
BUT MAN... what if....
Nah. Who am I kidding. The DNC had been planning for a decade for a Hillary run and I am not sure anything could have stopped them walking off that cliff
BUT MAN... what if....
Nah. Who am I kidding. The DNC had been planning for a decade for a Hillary run and I am not sure anything could have stopped them walking off that cliff
Theonik
Member
Bernie Sanders is also a long term member of the US Senate.
This is not an establishment vs anti-establishment problem as people frame it.
Angelus Errare
Banned
If Biden runs 2020 and somehow gets the nomination. I'll vote for him without hesitation. Mostly because I'm not white so I can't do the whole "Can't in good conscious vote for this person because I don't agree with them 100%" or "protest vote" nonsense but him getting the nomination will only further prove to me that liberal voters just want someone to say nice things and make pie the sky promises much like the conservative voters they quickly chastise.
No, it's a problem of record, if you look at Joe's voting and policy history he's center/right leaning as fuck.
Any Bernie supporter who's cheerleading the idea of "Uncle Diamond Glass what the fuck ever Joe" are clearly people who vote purely on personality and empty promise and not at all on platform or policies.
No, it's a problem of record, if you look at Joe's voting and policy history he's center/right leaning as fuck.
Any Bernie supporter who's cheerleading the idea of "Uncle Diamond Glass what the fuck ever Joe" are clearly people who vote purely on personality and empty promise and not at all on platform or policies.
Netherscourge
Banned
Who would have been Biden's running mate?
Jack Black?
Jack Black?
MisterHero
Super Member
What a shitty thing to say.
I don't necessarily disagree.
Last 3 elections prior.
Obama - Term for the State and didn't even finish his first Senate term.
Bush Jr - 4 years as a Governor
Clinton - AG of Ark, then Governor. 12 years
I mean, the last time we had a president with years of experience and variety was Bush Sr. Hell, Reagen had 8 years as Governor. Carter 4. With both Nixon and Ford being pretty well seasoned, breaking the trend once again.
I do believe Joe would of handled it better, but Trump's minions would have still turned it against him.
this is a weird point to bring up considering hillary's support over bernie was largely justified as being a more pragmatic choice against trump as opposed to who was more progressive
ryutaro's mama
Member
My bad lol
Theonik
Member
You're implying the vast majority of voters cares to inform themselves on policy and don't just use their gut to vote.
Extra Sauce
Member
I'm basing my assessment on the words coming out of their respective mouths. Hillary appears smarter and more knowledgeable in general, with a deeper understanding of geopolitics.
It was considered "pragmatic" because Bernie isn't really a progressive with a plan... he's a populist with a progressive slant.
If Bernie had won the nomination, he wouldn't have been able to sell a "free college for all" pitch to the masses because he didn't even bother explaining where the money for that would come from to his own base. As is the case for most of his policies.
The only difference between him & Trump is that Bernie isn't a complete, total racist & sexist asshole and probably didn't get peed on at one point in time.
TestOfTide
Banned
You're right that Hillary is much smarter than Biden, but to be honest I really hated when the campaign told me to describe Hillary as "the most qualified presidential candidate in history" because the fact is that Biden has more experience.
Like, sure you can call Hillary "well qualified" but "most qualified candidate ever" is just a straight up lie.
VendettaRed07
Member
Basically how I feel. I think I get why Joe is angry but he shouldn't be saying it like this.
I don't think it would have made a difference. His son dying was tragic but I can't help but think he would have been discouraged to run anyway. Dems were betting everything on Hillary and wanted to keep it as clean as possible. Hillary vs Joe would have been a mud slinging fest and both would have likely resorted to stupid petty attacks to one up each other. Sort of like 08.Biden/Warren 2016 if Beau didn't pass away.
They thought they were going to avoid a nasty primary this time.. but Bernie brought the fight anyway so we may as well just have ran Joe.
I know it's all revisionist at this point but damn.. yeah, Biden/Warren would have been amazing..
Pragmaticism != Centricism
Hillary's policies were more realistic compared to Bernie's, but she was still progressive.
Biden isn't.
Boo hoo, poor Hillary.
true I was just pointing out that the logic of the poster that I quoted didn't make any sense
Hitlersaurus Christ
Banned
He absolutely would have been a better candidate, but would he have won the primaries? I can see him losing to Clinton. She really had the deck stacked in her favor.
If he wouldn't have beaten Clinton, he sure as hell wouldn't have beaten Trump.
It's true. She's not good at actually running for office. Doesn't mean she's a bad person, just that a candidacy want the right role for her.
Bill is the former president with the highest favorable ratings. Obama might shake up that ranking but people still like Bill presidency.
Big Baybee
Member
I'm happy Biden didn't run, but I don't think the crime bill would have sunk him with Bernie running. He also voted for the crime bill and that criticism was consistently waved away.
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
Joe could and can literally run on saving the US economy and getting the US energy independent.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
What is this fiction about Joe being to the right of Hillary? He was against invading Libya, and the one who got the Obama administration to come out for Gay marriage. He pushed to increase the minimum wage too. Not saying he was Bernie Sanders, or anything like that, but he was to the left of Hillary in areas people cared a lot about. Nonetheless, that part doesn't really matter. Bernie supporters came out to vote for Hillary in huge numbers. What does matter is that Biden is infinity more likable and actually wanted to campaign for the "white" working class. He would have easily won had he managed to win the primary. Don't think he would have. IIRC, when people were running hypotheticals, early in the primary, he sliced a good chunk outta Hillary's numbers, and didn't put too much of a dent on Bernie. Chances are Bernie would have won at that point. Joe would have come in third unless he managed to get the Hillary group to vote for him.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
eh, can't really compare primaries to a general election, but he probably would've lost the primary. I firmly believe that.
For the general though, I don't think he would've gained votes in the places Hillary gained (who can say), but the rust belt losses were so slim that I think he could've held Trump off. (even though Trump was obscenely popular in all the damn rural areas from the beginning... I wonder why).
This isn't anything Clinton herself hasn't already said. She admits she's always been very bad at campaigning, but much better at actually doing the job. Part of it is an inherent lack of charisma, but sexist views of how a woman should or should not behave also contributed (ie: comments of 'she's too ambitious' or 'her laugh is too loud'). It's a difficult line to walk. It's a shame the electoral college screwed her over even with a 3 million vote advantage. Clinton would have been night and day compared to the moron we currently have.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
I think it's a fair question to ask whether a three-candidate primary of Clinton, Biden, and Sanders wouldn't have resulted in the nomination of Sanders.
I like Biden more on a personal level, but I probably would have still preferred Hillary on most issues, at least domestically. He's way too centrist, and I want to go left of Obama. I do prefer Biden on foreign policy over Clinton, as far as I can tell. He seemed to be one of the more dovish members of Obama's cabinet compared to Hillary's slightly hawkish nature. I really dislike Clinton, but based strictly on their respective 2016 policy positions, I'd vote for her before Biden.
I would have still voted Bernie in the primary, and Clinton still would have won the primary regardless though, I think.
I honestly don't want any of these old people in 2020 (unless it's Franken). Give me Kamala Harris or Cortez-Masto. And pick my hometown Mayor Pete for VP.
I would have still voted Bernie in the primary, and Clinton still would have won the primary regardless though, I think.
I honestly don't want any of these old people in 2020 (unless it's Franken). Give me Kamala Harris or Cortez-Masto. And pick my hometown Mayor Pete for VP.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Banned
That's not necessarily true. From the start, Hillary had support from many key figures in the DNC as well as some superdelegates. When you're only running against people from your own party, that kind of support matters more than when you're running against the opposition.
Considering that in 2008, Biden fizzled out early while Obama just barely scraped ahead on delegates, with Clinton winning the actual popular vote, the answer is probably no. Sanders massively underperformed the last upstart to come from behind and win the Democratic primary against the established favorite.
Which is completely irrelevant. Support from the party elite doesn't explain why the rank and file voted so overwhelmingly in favor of Clinton, especially in the later contests and major Democratic strongholds.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
This is why the best candidate for the general election should be chosen. Being #1 in your own echo chamber doesn't mean much.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Yeah, that's crossed my mind too. I still think Hillary takes it though.
I agree with pretty much all of this.
Biden ran multiple times in the past and went nowhere.
Hillary ran for president twice, getting 48% and 55% in her two runs. When she did actually win, it was a pretty overwhelming win, by about 4 million votes, getting huge, massive leads in a bunch of important battleground states. It was a solid win that is hilariously downplayed by abstract arguments about superdelegate support, etc.
If Biden thought he would have won the primary, he would have run. If he couldn't get more than a few percent when he was at his peak, how could he have done substantially better in his 70s while dealing with loss, and facing an even more lopsided powerful frontrunner? Hillary's role as SoS helped her popularity numbers. Biden's as VP actually hurt his, at least as of 2013/2014 when every candidate other than Sanders was laying the groundwork for their runs.
gutter_trash
Banned
This
And this.
Done.
Joe quit in September 1987 over a plagiarism tape.
Joe quit in early 2008 unable to make the Top 3 or even the Top 4 if you count Richardson, Edwards, Clinton and Obama.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkcAeEhtCbU
Yeah, this was hilarious. I still have a good hearty belly laugh even thinking about it. When I see it on video it reminds me of my son when he was 8-10 years old trying to talk his way out of punishment for misbehaving in elementary school.
it also makes me pretty angry that this gaffe completely destroyed him meanwhile GOP voters are so morally bankrupt that if Trump gave this answer he would probably be praised for it because he completed a menial task in his job without shitting his pants.
Bolivar687
Banned
Biden knew what 45 would be up against and espoused a progressive platform similar to Bernie, who he all but endorsed at the press conference where Obama thought he was clearing the way for Hillary (by fucking over his VP and, unintentionally, the rest of the country and its future generations as well):
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ign-primary-joe-biden-elizabeth-warren-214023
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ign-primary-joe-biden-elizabeth-warren-214023
TheLaughingStock
Member
He already lost what 2-3 times? I don't think he even got as far as Hillary or Bernie did. We all know what he said has a ring of truth but he wasn't a great candidate either. Worse IMO because the Obama legacy would've been an even bigger anchor around his neck and some Obama voters lost faith.
That's the gag. Joe lost and lost HARD both times he ran.
At this point I think the only reason Hillary hasn't responded to any of Biden's prodding is because she knows how much of a fucking joke he is.
Like, how you gonna talk shit from outside the club?
TangoAlphaLima
Member
If you assume Biden's 2016 effort equals his 2008 effort, then sure, it doesn't change anything. But if he steals a decent portion of the Hillary voters, and splits the DNC leadership into two camps, rather than all of them pushing for Hillary, it might have been enough for Bernie. At the very least, it's an interesting "what if" scenario.
Biden was a better candidate than Hillary for one reason only: optics. He is perceived as more likeable and charismatic. So if that's all that matters to you, then sure he would've been better. If you ever complained about the Democratic party policies not being progressive enough, or Hillary being too far to the right, you sure as fuck shouldn't be saying Biden would've been the better choice.
The number of Sanders supporters that wish Biden had run always makes me laugh. Like, really? That kind of policy-boomerang pretty much screams "I just really don't like Hillary."
A substantial chunk of Bernie's support was probably just anti-Hillary. If he were a genuine progressive uprising, it wouldn't have been such a dismal year for progressive causes at all levels of the ballot.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Why are ya'll acting like Diamond Joe -- while clearly not as left-leaning on all subjects or as active as Hillbear -- wouldn't have at the very least kept the country on a solid track, empowered other dems, pushed the democrat angle on most issues, appointed center-left leaning SC justices, and kept our international involvement and issues on the right track? ESPECIALLY if he had run with someone like Warren?
Ya'll are fuckin trippin in here. People are talking favorably about Joe not because his record is somehow better than Hillary's, but because he would have appealed better to those swing state voters that Hillary couldn't carry. If you think Joe would have lost Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, I'm going to laugh in your face. And that's really the bottom line. In a choice between "he's not to bad" and Donald J Trump, we could have had the "he's not so bad" guy and you would be feeling infinitely better about the next 4 years than you do right now.
That's the point. Absorb it.
Ya'll are fuckin trippin in here. People are talking favorably about Joe not because his record is somehow better than Hillary's, but because he would have appealed better to those swing state voters that Hillary couldn't carry. If you think Joe would have lost Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, I'm going to laugh in your face. And that's really the bottom line. In a choice between "he's not to bad" and Donald J Trump, we could have had the "he's not so bad" guy and you would be feeling infinitely better about the next 4 years than you do right now.
That's the point. Absorb it.
BotoxAgent
Member
He's not wrong
and also lol @ the event being called SALT
and also lol @ the event being called SALT
Muppet of a Man
Member
He's right though. He would have been a much more likable candidate. And he's right too in saying Hillary still would have made a good president. The 2 things are not mutually exclusive.
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