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Marvel's The Defenders *SPOILER THREAD* |OT| Super Friends - August 18th on Netflix

E

Escape Goat

Member
SargerusBR said:
Anyone else felt like Luke wasn't bothered about Matt's "death" as Jess and Danny? They both were clearly affected by it but Luke just goes like "Meh, i'm just glad it wasn't me".
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Luke's reaction should be the same one Jessica should be having in regards to Matt's death. Jessica's reaction isn't earned. Why is she in turmoil? I don't know. They met 2 or 3 days before and most of Jessica's on screen lines were just incredulous snark meant to elicit exposition.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Escape Goat said:
Luke's reaction should be the same one Jessica should be having in regards to Matt's death. Jessica's reaction isn't earned. Why is she in turmoil? I don't know. They met 2 or 3 days before and most of Jessica's on screen lines were just incredulous snark meant to elicit exposition.
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Don't you see? She's upset because she never got a chance to punch him so hard that he'd see. Show some consideration dude.
 
J

jmood88

Member
This was the worst of all the Netflix shows (I skipped Iron Fist, so that doesn't exist in my mind) but it did a good job of reminding me that I loved Daredevil. It seems like it has been years since season 2 for whatever reason.
 
K

Kelsdesu

Member
They took the worst part of this series and made it a focal point....


Marvel is fucking up on the tv side.

Just give me a Misty Knight/Colleen Wing(there is hope for her) Heroes for hire spin off and im good. Get Maria Hill (ya girl wants to work) and make her the liason ala Charlies Angels.
 
M

mooncakes

Member
It pulled me out of the scene a bit when Alexandra said Baka out of nowhere when she was talking to the Japanese's Hand member lol.
 
J

jmood88

Member
Kelsdesu said:
They took the worst part of this series and made it a focal point....


Marvel is fucking up on the tv side.

Just give me a Misty Knight/Colleen Wing(there is hope for her) Heroes for hire spin off and im good. Get Maria Hill (ya girl wants to work) and make her the liason ala Charlies Angels.
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I will never understand the complaints about The Hand around here.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
jmood88 said:
I will never understand the complaints about The Hand around here.
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I get the complaints, as they are awful. The only thing I don't get is why people are complaining about them being the main villains for this as if they weren't set up to be just that since DD S1.
 
D

DeathyBoy

Banned
jmood88 said:
I will never understand the complaints about The Hand around here.
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They literally hop from being so powerful a leader can beat up Lule Cage to so weak DD can take two leaders on at once. Their master weapon is a resurrected woman who was a better fighter before she died and was infected with Black Sky.
 
V

Vermillion

Banned
Finale was pretty goddamn weak. Shows feel like they're getting progressively worse, imo.

EDIT: They're not bad enough for me to stop watching yet, but.
 
K

Kelsdesu

Member
jmood88 said:
I will never understand the complaints about The Hand around here.
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What? They were completely mishandled.Pick up any book involving the hand and you would know.
They werent always bad either.

In DD season 1 they were good. There was mystery to them. They were literally the "hand" behind the scenes, but once they tried to explain shit..... all down hill. Their motives, their abilities. All of it.
 
finowns

finowns

Member
A lot of problems but enjoyed it till the ending, which wasn't very good.

Enjoyed the Iron Fist in this though, makes me look forwards to IF season 2.
 
J

jmood88

Member
DeathyBoy said:
They literally hop from being so powerful a leader can beat up Lule Cage to so weak DD can take two leaders on at once. Their master weapon is a resurrected woman who was a better fighter before she died and was infected with Black Sky.
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I'm not talking about how they were executed in this show, I was responding to the criticism of them from season 2 of Daredevil, which was insanely overblown on this site.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Escape Goat said:
Luke's reaction should be the same one Jessica should be having in regards to Matt's death. Jessica's reaction isn't earned. Why is she in turmoil? I don't know. They met 2 or 3 days before and most of Jessica's on screen lines were just incredulous snark meant to elicit exposition.
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LotusHD said:
Don't you see? She's upset because she never got a chance to punch him so hard that he'd see. Show some consideration dude.
Click to expand...


Stuff like this is lazy criticism and a big reason why it's hard to take complaints seriously.

Jessica cares because it's a human life. Both Luke and Jessica are the two characters that care about lives, even with their enemies. Their individual shows showcase this repeatedly and it's shown throughout Defenders as well.

DeathyBoy said:
They literally hop from being so powerful a leader can beat up Lule Cage to so weak DD can take two leaders on at once. Their master weapon is a resurrected woman who was a better fighter before she died and was infected with Black Sky.
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DD is the most skilled fighter in The Defenders. He can hang with The Fingers in short bursts through his skill alone. Luke Cage being strong and resilient doesn't prevent him from getting hit. DD blocks and dodges a lot more.

Black Sky infused Elektra is a better fighter AND she's stronger than Season 2 Elektra. She makes short work of everyone except DD and the show is incredibly blatant about the fact that she's allowing him to survive those fights.


It feels like people aren't paying attention.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
Jest Chillin said:
Stuff like this is lazy criticism and a big reason why it's hard to take complaints seriously.

Jessica cares because it's a human life. Both Luke and Jessica are the two characters that care about lives, even with their enemies. Their individual shows showcase this repeatedly and it's shown throughout Defenders as well.


.
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I didn't say she didn't care. They all care that Matt died, but Jessica's grief is like what I'd expect to see like if someone like Malcolm had died.
 
J

jmood88

Member
Kelsdesu said:
So you watch 1/4 of anything and just decide its bad, or good?
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If I thought it was horrible after watching a quarter of it, then yes. I know it's rare on this site but there are so many things to watch that I don't spend time completing things that I've determined aren't good after watching a portion.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
Kelsdesu said:
So you watch 1/4 of anything and just decide its bad, or good?
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Of course, why would I subject myself to something I consider awful? I'm not mental.

Jest Chillin said:
It feels like people aren't paying attention.
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My biggest criticism of it was how ham-fisted the exposition is, precisely because they seemingly don't have faith in their audience to pay attention.
I'd have preferred it if they'd just said "you know what, fuck the haters" and not tried to pamper them.
 
T

theWB27

Member
LordRaptor said:
Of course, why would I subject myself to something I consider awful? I'm not mental.



My biggest criticism of it was how ham-fisted the exposition is, precisely because they seemingly don't have faith in their audience to pay attention.
I'd have preferred it if they'd just said "you know what, fuck the haters" and not tried to pamper them.
Click to expand...

You assume they had the talent to do so. If you write good stuff the audience will pay attention. Pretty funny you blame the audience for something they wrote before we got to see it.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
theWB27 said:
You assume they had the talent to do so. If you write good stuff the audience will pay attention. Pretty funny you blame the audience for something they wrote before we got to see it.
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This isn't the first Netflix MCU thread where I've seen people declaring how shit and full of plot holes or how things that come from nowhere are things that are clearly explained on screen.
Its Netflix MCU and Better Call Saul both suffer from this.
 
J

jmood88

Member
theWB27 said:
You assume they had the talent to do so. If you write good stuff the audience will pay attention. Pretty funny you blame the audience for something they wrote before we got to see it.
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It is the audience's fault when explicit things are missed because people aren't paying attention. This isn't the first time it has happened and it's the case with things much better than this show, as well.
 
R

Raylan Targaryen

Member
what the fuck was the point of even including jessica jones? JJ and Trish got like a combined 12 minutes of time, 10 of them being the last 15 minutes of the show. 45% of the show was Iron Fist, 45% was Daredevil. Luke Cake was just there to show how powerful Iron Fist and Elektra are supposed to be.

to make them even more useless Madam Gao 1v2's Luke and Jessica while Daredevil fights mr billy club and cuban sword guy.
 
T

theWB27

Member
jmood88 said:
It is the audience's fault when explicit things are missed because people aren't paying attention. This isn't the first time it has happened and it's the case with things much better than this show, as well.
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LordRaptor said:
This isn't the first Netflix MCU thread where I've seen people declaring how shit and full of plot holes or how things that come from nowhere are things that are clearly explained on screen.
Its Netflix MCU and Better Call Saul both suffer from this.
Click to expand...

I've also watched much better shows with better writing not dumb down story/writing that wasn't amazing to begin with. I know people miss things...but the defenders had major character problems.

The writing for Fisk achieved what it set out to do much better than the hand. They didn't feel powerful at all....they felt desperate and only got as far as they did because the heroes were rookies at what they do. While the writing for Fisk felt like a man who had a tight grip on everything slowly lose control. They did that without the writing being out of this world.
 
B

BobLoblaw

Banned
What are the odds of them replacing the guy who plays Iron Fist? I hate him because he kinda ruined this show for me with his hammy lines and horrible delivery.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
BobLoblaw said:
What are the odds of them replacing the guy who plays Iron Fist? I hate him because he kinda ruined this show for me with his hammy lines and horrible delivery.
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He comes off as a dummy most of the time. Hes either confused or full of righteous anger. He never seems to be in control of any situation hes in. Hopefully this is corrected in IF Season 2, especially after what his character went through in The Defenders.
 
K

KarmaCow

Member
BobLoblaw said:
What are the odds of them replacing the guy who plays Iron Fist? I hate him because he kinda ruined this show for me with his hammy lines and horrible delivery.
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The characters call him out for acting like a child and constantly saying he's the Iron Fist so it has to be intentional. That's not an excuse but rather I doubt recasting him would change that.
 
L

Linkin112

Member
KarmaCow said:
The characters call him out for acting like a child and constantly saying he's the Iron Fist so it has to be intentional. That's not an excuse but rather I doubt recasting him would change that.
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Yeah, I feel like this was trying to do damage control on Iron Fist. At least the ending seemingly places him in a better spot for Season 2 of Iron Fist.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Escape Goat said:
I didn't say she didn't care. They all care that Matt died, but Jessica's grief is like what I'd expect to see like if someone like Malcolm had died.
Click to expand...

Jessica is deeply emotionally and psychologically damaged. Just because she killed Purple Man doesn't mean those wounds are healed. At the start of The Defenders, she's still carrying the weight of all the lost lives from JJ S1 as well as the additional feeling of failure in having resorted to killing to stop Purple Man. By the end of The Defenders she's now added the weight of Matt and The Architect to her guilt. She's able to recognize that she can actually help people after her conversation with Luke but she'll always carry those lives in her heart. She'll always be effected by the things Purple Man did. It's why she drinks.

LordRaptor said:
My biggest criticism of it was how ham-fisted the exposition is, precisely because they seemingly don't have faith in their audience to pay attention.
I'd have preferred it if they'd just said "you know what, fuck the haters" and not tried to pamper them.
Click to expand...

It's a hard line to walk because if you do that and anything else in the show isn't exceptional then you get the complaints that those non-exceptional things were "awful" AND that the story didn't make sense or characters didn't make sense.

Judging from how many criticisms seem based in things that were explained outright or given clear and repeated contextual clues, having faith in the audience to recognize subtlety would have been a worse move.

When I consider it, it's almost as if once there's a couple rough choreography spots, an oddly framed shot, or some lines people don't like... There's a segment of the audience that just gives up giving something their full attention.
 
M

Maintenance

Member
LordRaptor said:
I just went through 2 pages of your post history and the only thing you're complaining about as a plot hole is how did DD escape, which is not a "plot hole" because its pretty fucking likely going to be covered at the start of the next series of DD.

I mean, if you have actual plot holes, post them don't just say "WOW SO MANY CAN'T EVEN START"
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- Why did Bakuto survive point blank shots of a handgun?

- Why did no one from the cops or SWAT had a battering ram to open that door?

- Why did Jessica Jones was the one used as bait when Luke Cage actually has bulletproof skin?

- The fingers kept saying that they wanted to go home and that they needed to open that door to do that. Why? There are no portals there, only dragon bone marrow to make them immortal. Are they seriously saying that's the reason? Alexandra was the only one that would die soon, or at least that the story implied. Murakami put himself in danger many times but without the marrow he could still survive if he started taking precautions. Sawande has almost no back story other than the part he talks when he's a prisoner and his introduction.

- Why no one used Judas Bullets against Luke Cage, if the Hand is actually an evil mastermind organization why did no fucking one had a single bullet that could hurt Cage?

- The Hand actually uses ninjas, but where are them? Only appeared during a flashback scene them poof, disappeared like true ninjas.

- Power levels all over the place. Daredevil could hold himself against two fingers, Luke Cage captured one like someone would do with a random goon. Nobu was an underling and smashed DD like he was nothing, and actually had a decent fight in S2.

- Stone from the Chaste. Gone like the wind.

- The cops dropping the charges like nothing happened, even though they had no one to put the blame on. It's not like they captured one finger or had anyone prove what happened there. Misty saw them wanting to blow the whole thing up / the explosives / Bakuto, but did not see the hole or anything else herself, it could just as easy be a fabrication of the group.
 
L

Linkin112

Member
L

LotusHD

Banned
Maintenance said:
Then don't introduce them in the first place as something that even cops can have.
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I mean, you're not wrong, but right now I'm handwaving the Hand not having them on-hand because there'd be no reason for them to expect Luke to suddenly interfere with them.
 
L

LumpOfCole

Member
Was there a single reference to the Avengers (or any of the Avengers) in the entire span of the show? If that's the case, the Super Friends reference means that they mentioned the Justice League more than the Avengers.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
LumpOfCole said:
Was there a single reference to the Avengers (or any of the Avengers) in the entire span of the show? If that's the case, the Super Friends reference means that they mentioned the Justice League more than the Avengers.
Click to expand...

They referenced "the incident" again but I think that was it.
 
T

TheYanger

Member
Crazy tos ee the negative opinions. I thought this was quite good. 8 episodes helped a lot with the pacing, and generally it felt like the only netflix marvel show that could've had MORE content instead of less. The fights were good, the development was largely good due to being a tv series instead of a movie, etc. I appreciated the ties to all of the individual shows (Luke Cage probably being the biggest outlier), and honestly wish supporting characters could've gotten more screen time or interaction, but that's about it. And,m really I'm not sure what Patsy or Karen or Foggy would've been doing anyway. Misty could've been in it more but I appreciate that she was very in character as a cop still, and Colleen and Claire got appropriately involved.

I even really liked that Elektra was a good payoff for that entire DD season 2 storyline, which I didn't love on first viewing, liked a lot more on the second, and now feels completely paid off.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Maintenance said:
- Why did Bakuto survive point blank shots of a handgun?

- Why did no one from the cops or SWAT had a battering ram to open that door?

- Why did Jessica Jones was the one used as bait when Luke Cage actually has bulletproof skin?

- The fingers kept saying that they wanted to go home and that they needed to open that door to do that. Why? There are no portals there, only dragon bone marrow to make them immortal. Are they seriously saying that's the reason? Alexandra was the only one that would die soon, or at least that the story implied. Murakami put himself in danger many times but without the marrow he could still survive if he started taking precautions. Sawande has almost no back story other than the part he talks when he's a prisoner and his introduction.

- Why no one used Judas Bullets against Luke Cage, if the Hand is actually an evil mastermind organization why did no fucking one had a single bullet that could hurt Cage?

- The Hand actually uses ninjas, but where are them? Only appeared during a flashback scene them poof, disappeared like true ninjas.

- Power levels all over the place. Daredevil could hold himself against two fingers, Luke Cage captured one like someone would do with a random goon. Nobu was an underling and smashed DD like he was nothing, and actually had a decent fight in S2.

- Stone from the Chaste. Gone like the wind.
Click to expand...

- Bakuto was shot in the stomach, that's a slow death that he didn't care about because he thought they had the Substance.

- Because plot needed it to be that way.

- Jessica is less threatening and The Hand could believe that she didn't intend to fight. It's in her character.

- Only some of The Fingers want to return to Kun Lun. To do so, they have to live longer. It's a war of attrition. For immortals, one lifetime is relatively short.

- Why assume Judas bullets are common knowledge? The Hand never dealt with Luke directly. He and JJ were unexpected.

- Ninja's come from Murakami's sect and they said that Murakami handles things himself if he decides to be directly involved.

- DD is the most skilled fighter out of the group. Power levels as a concept are bad and don't mean anything. A>B and B>C =/= A>C. The rest depends on plot and circumstances. Which is common in fiction.

- If it doesn't happen on screen...
 
M

Maintenance

Member
LotusHD said:
I mean, you're not wrong, but right now I'm handwaving the Hand not having them on-hand because there'd be no reason for them to expect Luke to suddenly interfere with them.
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I'm not a fan of the bullets myself, but if you're a global organization that deals with things so massive, you've got to know that there are others with superpowers out there, and how to deal with them. It's not like the Hand is just one person.

They did not survive that long on being careless, even though carelessness was their downfall since Alexandra wanted to move the plan along before she died, while Gao wanted to move it slow. That carelessness doesn't justify everything though.
 
SargerusBR

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
george-lucas-2.jpg

Danny
is the key to all of this
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
I mean... most of those aren't even plot holes they're just nit picking plot points.

plot holes are an absence of explanation for something that happened, not a "why didn't batman just kill the joker the first time he met him?" question


Maintenance said:
- Why did Bakuto survive point blank shots of a handgun?
why did he survive a fucking beheading? its glossed over / handwaved


- The fingers kept saying that they wanted to go home and that they needed to open that door to do that. Why? There are no portals there, only dragon bone marrow to make them immortal. Are they seriously saying that's the reason? Alexandra was the only one that would die soon, or at least that the story implied. Murakami put himself in danger many times but without the marrow he could still survive if he started taking precautions. Sawande has almost no back story other than the part he talks when he's a prisoner and his introduction.
They didn't say they needed to open that door to do that.
This was shown as an actual point of contention - shown on screen - the majority didnt think this was a good plan, this was an alternative plan to get more ninja resurrection magic shit.
Returning to kun lun was their longterm goal. This was a different plan.
Like, they literally stand around talking about their plan, and criticising this plan as not contributing to their larger plan.


- Stone from the Chaste. Gone like the wind.
Killed offscreen. Like they say Stick is the only one left.
Beause the others were killed.
Theres no mystery here.

- The cops dropping the charges like nothing happened, even though they had no one to put the blame on. It's not like they captured one finger or had anyone prove what happened there. Misty saw them wanting to blow the whole thing up / the explosives / Bakuto, but did not see the hole or anything else herself, it could just as easy be a fabrication of the group.

The only actual plot hole in your list, and presumably because they didn't want an episode 9 solely of taking depositions and the D.A refusing to take the case like a shit epsidoe of Law & Order: Special Hell Kitchen Unit
Click to expand...
 
V

Volimar

Member
Zomba13 said:
That annoyed me so much because it was clearly the guys fist just wrapped in bandages. Like, having your hand chopped off doesn't make your arm longer...
Click to expand...


That had to be some digital effect that they forgot to apply right? They were supposed to digitally shorten his arm or something, right? I mean that was so obviously badly done it couldn't have been on purpose, right?
 
J

jmood88

Member
theWB27 said:
I'm glad Stick told Luke he needs to learn how to fight. The actor is so stiff.
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They need to have him take some boxing classes at least. I was fine with it in Luke Cage, since it was the first time he was willing to jump into crime fighting and wasnt spending his time training for anything, but it was painfully obvious while Daredevil and all the enemies were flipping around around and beating the shit out of them that Luke (and Jessica) need to learn how to actually fight.
 
K

KarmaCow

Member
Linkin112 said:
Ah, interesting. Odd that it seems they want the Iron Fist of the Marvel Netflix Universe to just be an idiot then.
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Not so much an idiot but they seem to be going for an emotionally stunted manchild who thought being the Iron Fist would help him get over his parents' death. The first season of Iron Fist paints his history in K'un-Lun as basically just torture as they tried to beat his trauma out of him and he came to New York trying to get closure after realising that being the Iron Fist changed nothing for him.

I don't know how much that squares with the comics but if that is there intent, they forgetting that watching a manchild stumble around and failing is annoying to watch. Especially when he also seemingly sucks at fighting.
 
M

Maintenance

Member
Jessica would be the only one I'm fine with not learning how to fight, it's not like she gives a fuck about it. Luke though, even though he might think it's useless since he's a walking tank, just do it.
 
J

jmood88

Member
Maintenance said:
Jessica would be the only one I'm fine with not learning how to fight, it's not like she gives a fuck about it. Luke though, even though he might think it's useless since he's a walking tank, just do it.
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Jessica at least needs a self-defense class since she doesn't have unbreakable skin and constantly finds herself in situations where people end up knocking her out.
 
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