-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Marvel's The Defenders *SPOILER THREAD* |OT| Super Friends - August 18th on Netflix
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
razzmahtazz
Member
They needed an episode that just focused on the fingers. What they did, how horrible they were, what their motivations were, how they built the hand over centuries, what the black sky was. Like the Kingpin/Purpleman flashback episodes. They should have started with that rather than Danny. Overall I was more intrigued by who they were and what they did and what they were capable of in the past then what they are currently up to, since it was pretty apparent halfway into the series that there was just more "substance" beyond the wall.
Also, knowing that there was only substance beyond the wall early on, while the heroes were still trying to figure it out kinda hurt the pacing. Did they really need to go back to the gorram architect's subplot multiple times? At that point, I was just bored as hell and screaming "just go to the midland tower!!!"
Cut the whole police chief subplot trying to get them. It was stupid how they just kept getting away from the cops. It made Misty pretty stupid in the process. The hand works in the shadows, the heroes should engage in the same way.
Also should have held back on some of the supporting cast. Less is more, work smarter blah blah. Probably blew their budget on that + Sigourney.
It was fun to see the characters interacting(except for the forced fight between IF and DD,JJ and LC) but jeez was this disappointing.
Also, knowing that there was only substance beyond the wall early on, while the heroes were still trying to figure it out kinda hurt the pacing. Did they really need to go back to the gorram architect's subplot multiple times? At that point, I was just bored as hell and screaming "just go to the midland tower!!!"
Cut the whole police chief subplot trying to get them. It was stupid how they just kept getting away from the cops. It made Misty pretty stupid in the process. The hand works in the shadows, the heroes should engage in the same way.
Also should have held back on some of the supporting cast. Less is more, work smarter blah blah. Probably blew their budget on that + Sigourney.
It was fun to see the characters interacting(except for the forced fight between IF and DD,JJ and LC) but jeez was this disappointing.
Escape Goat
Member
Even as a straight guy/comedic foil they didn't work for me. They never had any meaningful scenes together.
I really felt like Jessica was underutilized in this series. She never really got to have a cool action sequence either. Luke is as strong as her and hes bulletbroof. As far as power sets go, they didn't give much to give Jessica a badass moment. She didn't even use her jumping/gliding/flying power at any moment.
The more I think about it this show was just a huge mess of missed opportunities.
I disagree. For example, I thought the scene where Matt and Jessica went off to interview the architect's daughter leading into the bit where Jessica revealed she knew about Matt's past was great. It all comes down to subjectivity, I guess.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
What was great about it? It was generic in that it served to only let you know she's PI. That's the cliche thing a PI does in shows:
"How'd you know?"
"PI"
The charm comes from the actors and not the script.
I didn't find the fact Jessica happened to have access to google particularly cliche or incredulous, so I can't say I really feel for that particular criticism. She's a private investigator and she does her homework. The fact that she took a moment to look up Murdock's past after seeing him leap around like a spider-monkey in that alley was perfectly in character.
ZekeThePlumber
Member
So were those dragon bones load bearing dragon bones or something? I don't see how mining the bones to the point of it destabalizing New York wouldn't also be a threat to the mining operation itself. I was hoping for a bigger or more nefarious threat.
Rodney McKay
Member
Well I liked it!
Maybe it was just Iron Fist having extra poor choreography, but I enjoyed the fights quite a bit in Defenders.
As far as the team make-up, I actually like the fact that they never perfectly gelled together. They're all so different it wouldn't make sense for them to all become the bestest of friends in a few days, but it still worked for me that Daredevil's death would be at least a little sad for the rest of them.
Less episodes that the other seasons too, so at least for me it didn't really drag at all.
Only thing I didn't really like was the typical superhero "twist" where they never actually commit to killing off a superhero. I get that he's a big character, but would it have killed them to at least keep it a death for 5 seconds? I was actually impressed they went there (I don't recall reading if Daredevil season 3 was announced, so I thought it was possible he could be dead), but they couldn't leave him dead for more than 10 minutes.
I never got sick of seeing everyone dumping on Iron Fist and him failing so much though, I laughed every time. Nobody believing him about his ridiculous origin story, Luke Cage easily kicking his ass when he wasn't using his fist, the team tying him up, him getting captured by the badguys and doing EXACTLY what they wanted him to do. I didn't even hate the Iron Fist show as much as a lot of people, but I do think his character is still a pompous idiot 99% of the time.
Maybe it was just Iron Fist having extra poor choreography, but I enjoyed the fights quite a bit in Defenders.
As far as the team make-up, I actually like the fact that they never perfectly gelled together. They're all so different it wouldn't make sense for them to all become the bestest of friends in a few days, but it still worked for me that Daredevil's death would be at least a little sad for the rest of them.
Less episodes that the other seasons too, so at least for me it didn't really drag at all.
Only thing I didn't really like was the typical superhero "twist" where they never actually commit to killing off a superhero. I get that he's a big character, but would it have killed them to at least keep it a death for 5 seconds? I was actually impressed they went there (I don't recall reading if Daredevil season 3 was announced, so I thought it was possible he could be dead), but they couldn't leave him dead for more than 10 minutes.
I never got sick of seeing everyone dumping on Iron Fist and him failing so much though, I laughed every time. Nobody believing him about his ridiculous origin story, Luke Cage easily kicking his ass when he wasn't using his fist, the team tying him up, him getting captured by the badguys and doing EXACTLY what they wanted him to do. I didn't even hate the Iron Fist show as much as a lot of people, but I do think his character is still a pompous idiot 99% of the time.
Thanks for the eloborate answer. Most of my problems/lack of understanding stems from the show's lack of background on the villain front. Which is really bad in my opinion because all previous shows took their time to give some proper motivations and backdrop for most of their villains. And they had three seasons of buildup for the hand in general. I feel a lot of the exposition in The Defenders was information we already knew, which felt like wasting my time and was the reason why I paid less attention than usual. Still, some of these things are a bit unconvinging to me even with possible explainations.
jack_package_200
Banned
The show has its issues but you have to admit Luke bursting through that door at the end of episode 3 was hype as fuck.
Jest Chillin
Member
I thoroughly enjoyed the show. Plot was decent enough, action was good for the most part, characterizations were solid, and pacing was great outside of a couple spots.
It's not going to win any awards but it was good.
It's not going to win any awards but it was good.
After sleeping on this I still like the show, but honestly I think this shows biggest mistake was either not having the budget or the planning to actually make this an action show. You have a show about vigilante crime fighters and we only got a couple of action set pieces in the entire thing. DD and JJ are consistently the most liked Netflix shows because they actually fit their genre. DD an action show and JJ a crime investigation with occasional action sequences. Defenders needed to be an action show.
Vic_Viper
Member
Yeah, the Hate Train is strong on this site lately. I understand the hate for Iron Fist season 1 and the second half of Luke Cage, but completely disagree with the hate Jessica Jones and Daredevil Season 2 gets here.
Completely agree. It wasnt as good as I was hoping it would be, but it was still a really good series that was hampered by what they had to work with. Hopefully this will be the end of the Hand in its current form and the next "Phase" of the Netflix MCU finds a better main antagonist. Madame Gao seemed to be the only finger of the Hand that the show runners knew what to do with and I hope she ends up sticking around to become the Crane Mother.
Either way, I cant wait to see what happens now. Especially with Iron Fist and Daredevil. All 4 of the Defenders have so much potential. Now that Iron Fist seems to finally found his place in the world we can hopefully get to some really cool storylines. Then Daredevil seems to finally be setting up one of his greatest storylines ever with that ending!
I mean, I agree the gaf "hate train" is strong, I have posted plenty of times that I think gaf is too harsh on the Netflix shows. I genuinely think DD1-2 and JJ are great shows and I even enjoyed the messy Iron Fist enough. But this season really is pretty bad in my opinion, on almost every aspect. Hate is a strong word, but I most certainly don't actively like it, which may lead to me sounding very negative because I enjoyed all the other material.
It isn't hate, it's a different opinion.
I thought Jessica Jones was mostly liked / okayed on GAF, barring some valid criticisms it feels a few episodes too long / stretched?
Yeah, the lack of budget was readily apparent. Especially in the final cave sequence. The cave walls looked like they were made from cardboard. Throw in some bad compositing with the elevator and the whole thing looked amateurish.
I didn't the whole thread, obviously, but am I the only one bother with just how godlike DD is with his hearing? He hears the bomb timer tick 30 stories down through multiple closed doors. Like, seriously? That was the best you could do to move that plot forward?
BronsonLee
Member
BIG FAN of mooks getting stuck on a door and getting out of the way so Madame Gao can regulate
Also wow Alexandra sucks
Also wow Alexandra sucks
LordRaptor
Member
Jokes on the people that didn't like it, they wasted 8 hours of their life plus whatever time they've spent whining about it online
Shadow Broker
Banned
My most hype moment was when Electra killed Alexandra from behind. Talk about a boring villian. The way she treated the Hand who up to this point I thought would be equals was odd for me. She spoke to Gao more as a servant then someone who's been alive for countless years.
It's also amazing how the Hand treats Electra in DD as the Black Sky and she's treated here. In DD she's treated as a chosen one to lead the Hand because of some all important purpose vs Defenders she's treated as a servant brought back to be their tool with a purpose of getting the elder Hand members their never ending "fix".
I like Electra character in DD season 2 and liked how this season ended with those two fighting in the cave being reckless when there's a fucking building about to drop on them.
Jessica Jones didn't disappoint and I wish there was more on screen time between her and Matt. Luke Cage sharing screen time with Iron Fist actually made me enjoy Iron Fist more. I hope there's a bigger cross over between Iron Fist and Luke Cage in future seasons of their shows. I deffenitly see a good Bromance between the 2 if done right. Right now Matt is suppose to be dead in the eyes of everyone on the show but I feel Matt Murdock character would play extremely well in a cross over with Jessica Jones and vice versa. I'm curious to see how it all plays out.
It's also amazing how the Hand treats Electra in DD as the Black Sky and she's treated here. In DD she's treated as a chosen one to lead the Hand because of some all important purpose vs Defenders she's treated as a servant brought back to be their tool with a purpose of getting the elder Hand members their never ending "fix".
I like Electra character in DD season 2 and liked how this season ended with those two fighting in the cave being reckless when there's a fucking building about to drop on them.
Jessica Jones didn't disappoint and I wish there was more on screen time between her and Matt. Luke Cage sharing screen time with Iron Fist actually made me enjoy Iron Fist more. I hope there's a bigger cross over between Iron Fist and Luke Cage in future seasons of their shows. I deffenitly see a good Bromance between the 2 if done right. Right now Matt is suppose to be dead in the eyes of everyone on the show but I feel Matt Murdock character would play extremely well in a cross over with Jessica Jones and vice versa. I'm curious to see how it all plays out.
BronsonLee
Member
Did Stick just fucking do the You Can't See Me taunt
HawksWinStanley
Member
In preparation for this show I wanted to hit the rest of the individual shows first. I loved Daredevil and now I'm a little over half way through Iron Fist...which is pretty damn bad. The only reason I'm still watching I guess is because I didn't know anything about Iron Fist from the comics other than that he existed. Was he an effeminate dork in the comics too? His character in the show is just pathetic. He comes across as this naive child with some of the worst dialogue I've heard in a while.
After reading through some of this thread I think I'll just skip this along with Cage and Jones' shows.
After reading through some of this thread I think I'll just skip this along with Cage and Jones' shows.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Villains should have been Fisk using the Hand in order to bring back Killgrave for his powers.
citizentaxman
Neo Member
jones is worth watching imo, my biggest complaint with that show is that it touches on like a million themes without really exploring them with the time/care they deserve.
Yep, all our criticisms (with examples) of things like poor production values, shoddy writing, plot holes, boring pacing, terrible writing, etc. are just a smokescreen. In reality we're criticizing a show just to feel like we belong to some sort of hater community. We're all terrified to be honest and proclaim our love for The Defenders and we mask it through false negativity. You sure figured us out.
Going through episode seven...but did the end of 6 get the flak it deserved? How bad was the scene where everyone miraculously can't take a hit and fall out so that Elektra can take Danny?
Probably the worst part of this season. I'd say the rest has been interesting enough to get through the season. They've done a bang up job having Luke Cage fight as little as possible...dude is terribad.
Probably the worst part of this season. I'd say the rest has been interesting enough to get through the season. They've done a bang up job having Luke Cage fight as little as possible...dude is terribad.
Yeah, I was really disappointed in this. I really liked DD, JJ, and LC (haven't seen IF), but this just felt too much like a forced attempt at making a super awesome team-up special, that just largely felt unearned and unnecessary. A big problem with this show is that half the cast didn't relate much to the supernatural aspects seen in DD and IF, and not to mention the stylistic, tonal, and character personalities differing between each of the shows. It was incredibly difficult sitting through scenes where Danny, Matt, and Stick have to explain what the Hand and immortality are to Jessica and Luke, because they come from shows that don't deal with that in any tangible way at all. Yes, I understand they tried circumventing that by having characters say "well, you're bulletproof, you don't believe in this other stuff?". But that doesn't revolve the differing styles and tones from different tv shows.
I feel this show should have come after another season of the four other shows, where they could properly develop the Hand and the more supernatural elements in each of them. Because this was just a rushed mess that tried way too hard in forcing the team-up to be a thing. Because this is what happens when you rush into event shows. There were a few good moments, like the fight with all them together for the first time--and Sigourney Weaver was largely great--but by and large, I just didn't enjoy myself with this. And that bums me out. I was rooting for them.
I feel this show should have come after another season of the four other shows, where they could properly develop the Hand and the more supernatural elements in each of them. Because this was just a rushed mess that tried way too hard in forcing the team-up to be a thing. Because this is what happens when you rush into event shows. There were a few good moments, like the fight with all them together for the first time--and Sigourney Weaver was largely great--but by and large, I just didn't enjoy myself with this. And that bums me out. I was rooting for them.
Nah, the Hand had its chance to be properly developed. Hopefully we can stay very away from that for a looooong time, if not forever.
I never knew how much I wanted something in my life.
LordRaptor
Member
what were the plot holes?
I enjoyed the show, but it went out of its way to laboriously explain what was happening through exposition and repetition because it was obviously afraid its audience were dicking around on their phone and not paying proper attention.
The second half of DD s2 really dragged covering it though.
It didn't really fit what they had set DD up as, although the payoff here was pretty good.
Maintenance
Member
Way too many. I probably posted a dozen yesterday, based on what, two episodes.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Man if you don't have the TV tuned up correctly there's a fair bit of noise visible on certain scenes in 4K HDR.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
The lack of budget really showed when they were trying to create dire situations for the Defenders.
"The only way we're going to survive this is if we stick together!"
Because they're surrounded by ten guys?
"This is going to be the hardest fight yet."
Oh twenty guys this time, ok whatever.
"The only way we're going to survive this is if we stick together!"
Because they're surrounded by ten guys?
"This is going to be the hardest fight yet."
Oh twenty guys this time, ok whatever.
LordRaptor
Member
I just went through 2 pages of your post history and the only thing you're complaining about as a plot hole is how did DD escape, which is not a "plot hole" because its pretty fucking likely going to be covered at the start of the next series of DD.
I mean, if you have actual plot holes, post them don't just say "WOW SO MANY CAN'T EVEN START"
Skyward Sheep
Banned
Just finished off the series. I quite enjoyed it overall, having only eight episodes was a very welcome change to the other series. Obviously it isn't without its faults, but I liked the majority of it.
I really dug Luke Cage and Iron Fist's short time together. Heroes for Hire when?
I really dug Luke Cage and Iron Fist's short time together. Heroes for Hire when?
Escape Goat
Member
how does Jessica not get one shotted by ninjas? main character armor not withstanding.
Glass Rebel
Member
That's a weird thing to look at this.
She felt waaay out of her league. I didn't watch her show. Is she strong? She showed flashes of it but it felt like her power came and went at any time. Does she not like to use her strength? What's going on.
Escape Goat
Member
Shes slightly stronger than Luke and can fly (or at least jump really high). Shes also got snark powers.
Oh don't get me wrong. They totally botched the Hand in DD, but they could have done a better job with how they incorporated that into the other shows. My point was that they didn't take the steps to bring the other characters into the fold. They sort of just chucked them into the deep end. And they sank.
I agree with the poster above who said that this show should have had Kingpin and a large criminal empire as the main villain. That would have been better.
cj_iwakura
Member
I-its not like I like the Black Sky or anything!
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Anyone else felt like Luke wasn't bothered about Matt's "death" as Jess and Danny? They both were clearly affected by it but Luke just goes like "Meh, i'm just glad it wasn't me".
Snark powers were on full display, but I'm scratching my head on why they went out of their way not to show her off during 8 episodes. Wow.