So because of the Succession of Witches, Rinoa must survive to pass on her powers so Ultimecia could eventually exist. Then shouldn't Ultimecia know from the beginning that her plan would fail? Because... somehow the only time travel that works is if it was always meant to, which means that Ulimecia lives in a time where her whole Time Compression scheme has been tried and failed untold years in the past. And isn't it a tad depressing that the final legacy of the Sorceresses is a tyrannical narcissist?
God this whole thing is a fucking Grandfather Paradox. Why couldn't they have just gone with Many Worlds?
Any thoughts on my other reply btw, or are you waiting until I beat the game?
EDIT: And also, you know, who's to say Rinoa is a predecessor to Ultimecia? There isn't a single line (Edea got her powers from another Sorceress, she only later absorbed Ultimecia's power), so there could be other Sorceresses in the woodwork.
Yup. Like you mentioned, 'Folding space time like an accordion around herself', is one way to put it. Looking at it logically, it'd be impossible because it would be almost like opening up an alternate reality to look upon your current reality-But in Magic/Space/Time logic, it's distorting reality to exist all at once and for Ultimecia to be the sort of Maestro of it, being able to control this distorted time however she wants.
Like you said, she can't change the future because her past is locked into place, unless she achieves time compression, in which case the past and future will both be open to her. She is trying to escape her fate of passing on her powers. And the only way she can do it, is by setting up a chain of events that eventually leads her to being able to control all of time, but at once.
By achieving Time Compression, in a way yeah she would recreate the universe, albeit with everything under her control. Since the past, present, and future are all 'together', she can pick and choose what events would transpire in this timeline, whilst having complete control over the past, present, and future.
Oh my god she's Pucci.
Seriously it will make your head hurt lol, I was debating this last week in all the spoiler tags, and you can fall down a rabbit hole with it.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy, her goal is to get rid of SeeD, who have persecuted her across generations (her own fault, if your going to possess people in other time periods, people will be upset). Thematically she is the polar opposite of Squall, she is someone who has given in to her desire for solitude and that plays into the theme of loss and the inability to deal with it.
Its interesting with Ultimecia's knowledge of time compression, to her it happened hundreds of years ago, maybe even longer. Can she know it was her that tried it before? Maybe to her its a good idea that failed and she thinks she can do better.
With Rinoa's powers, I can't elaborate, there is a scene in the ending that refers to this. So we can discuss it when you complete it, it also presents the 'beginning' of the time loop.
Re: The previous post, I think your comparison to Bioshock is apt. Its an issue a lot of people have, Ultimecia is an entity at this point (you should check out the spoiler tag discussions after you finish it, we got into some interesting Ultimecia stuff). And its difficult to get to grips with her as a character throughout the events in disk 3. She's actually put to one side for a while because the main narrative is driving the development of Squall and Rinoa. That's what the whole story is about and has been building towards, Ultimecia is almost a living metaphor for all the negative emotions and motivations within Squall. So in that sense it works, its the actual plot delivery that buckles under its own weight.
But the themes and the story it is trying to tell remain fascinating to me, its the execution that holds it back. Odin's plan is fantastic in its level of nonsense, but I still have this weird admiration for it. So yeah, its always a weird discussion for me, I can happily admit its narrative flaws, but it still works for me on an emotional level, so when it gets a bit silly i'm ok with it. It doesn't excuse it, but my enthusiasm for what it was trying to do made it enjoyable from beginning to end. When i'm trying to be critical its hard to divorce myself from what it meant to me when I first played it. When I first read that people didn't like it I was genuinely shocked, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread!
I can actually compare it a bit to my first play through of IX, where I was so into VIII and happy to go along with anything. I didn't have that connection to IX and the plot twist of Terra did not work for me at all. I actually did not like it and it soured me on the game for a while. Because I had been exploring this medieval/steam powered world, then suddenly I was in space and had a futuristic spaceship, I found it so jarring. I found nothing in VIII as jarring as that even with its flaws. Its only on subsequent play throughs and knowing where the plot is going that I grew to appreciate IX. Its difficult to put your finger on why some things are acceptable and some not. Maybe i'm like the people who enjoy Batman V Superman even thought they know its terrible? (on a much smaller scale)
I'm rambling now, its early thats my excuse lol.
So she fuses her powers with Ellone's which allows her to propagate her magic through time and space. I can sorta get that. But then how does she initiate time compression if she never actually junctions to Ellone? Unless she was piggybacking on Ellone sending her to the past somehow, but then why would 'the present' be the epicenter of time compression?
Also you were right about Adel being possessed by Ultimecia, but there are two points that arise from it, one ironic and one frustrating. By junctioning Ultimecia to a young Adel, that makes Ellone responsible for the Sorceress War and her own (as well as most of the Party's) Orphanhood. But the frustrating thing is, if Ultimecia was in control of Adel in the past (I keep hearing "Rolling in the deep" whenever I say her name), why didn't she junction with Elone then? Because she needed to do the research on Ellone in order to develop the Time Compression magic in Ultimecia's present? Good god the contortions to preserve causality are insan.
I'm honestly still confused where Ultimecia is projecting herself during Disc 3 so as to get Seifer and Galbadia to do her bidding. I know she was inside Rinoa on the Lagrange station, so did she shift to Adel then (combining I guess with her other consciousness from the past?)? Is it implied Ultimecia as Rinoa told Seifer what to do and like the rest of Galbadia was just "Okay sure dude whatever you say". What the hell does General Caraway think of all this?
I almost get the feeling that the universe just spat out Ellone because the time hijinks apparently requires her to exist. The whole damn thing reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkMaxdhzzMw
.
Yep. That song... That ending...The GOAT ending.
It seemed to me Ultimecia possessed Adel as a child due to Ellone's actions; which is why I asked why Ultimecia didn't attempt Time Compression back then, other than 'causality demands that occurs'.
But the bigger question I had is how did Time Compression even happen. If Ultimecia was put back into Adel, how would that cause Time Compression without Ellone? And another question, what determines who Ultimecia can Junction to? Is it only people who inherited her power?
My assumption for as to why Ultimecia needed Ellone, was that by doing some sort of double Ellone Junctioning timetravel, she was somehow able to generate some bizarre effect to allow for time contraction. What that effect is, I don't know, but...perhaps functioning in multiple eras at once allows for some sort of 'pinching' effect that allows her to scrunch up spacetime like a napkin?
Ultimecia did attempt Time Compression the first time she had captured Ellone, but Ultimecias consciousness was ejected from Adel at that time by Ellone, which allowed Adels capture.
As for the second time Ultimecia took control of Adel, where they captured Rinoa, it was at the moment Adel died and transferred her powers to Rinoa(Since a Sorceress can't die until they do so) that Ultimecia in turn possessed Rinoa. Ellone this time, instead of ejecting Ultimecias consciousness back to the future, she sent Rinoas consciousness back the far past(And thus Ultimecias mind).
The reason why this gives Ultimecia the ability to cause Time Compression(And only through sending her mind far back to the original Sorceresses), is because she is able to 'steal' the power of Sorceresses she inhabits. That is, steal is a rudimentary way of saying it, but she can gain the knowledge/powers of previous sorceresses. So she definitely needed Ellone(And for Ellone to willingly send her far back, since the Junction Machine couldn't go that far back).
As for who she can junction, it seems she can only send her consciousness back to other/previous Sorceresses.
But doesn't Rinoa say she put Ultimecia's consciousness in a young Adel? I don't think Ultimecia would be able to back further on her own.
Also it's awful nice of FUTURE!SeeD to keep up the paycheck, though I bet inflation's made the gil effectively worthless.
So okay, Ellone's powers aren't specifically necessary for Time Compression, she just needs her ability so she can Highlander her way through the Sorceresses across Spacetime?
So maybe Time Compression happens when Ellone sends Ultimecia and Rinoa back because that's the 'event' that starts the causal chain that ultimately leads to the creation of Ultimecia?
Man, thiis whole convo reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXJiSZhA5cg
Sorry for not really contributing to the discussion, but I'm replaying this on my PS3 with my girlfriend with the original discs and the game freezes on me during Zell's introduction cutscene. If someone who has a PS3, a copy of the game (physical or digital), and a USB drive wouldn't mind spending a few minutes to help me, please send me a PM.
You know the game is $3.00 right now on sale on US PSN?
So assuming you're in North America, you could just buy that and load up the same save to get past that part.
I'm honestly still confused where Ultimecia is projecting herself during Disc 3 so as to get Seifer and Galbadia to do her bidding. I know she was inside Rinoa on the Lagrange station, so did she shift to Adel then (combining I guess with her other consciousness from the past?)? Is it implied Ultimecia as Rinoa told Seifer what to do and like the rest of Galbadia was just "Okay sure dude whatever you say". What the hell does General Caraway think of all this?
I guess to me I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone first playing it in their 20s, and having already experienced several great Time Travel narratives, probably chief among them Puella Magi Madoka Magica, but Looper is up there as well. Whereas Madoka's is pretty internally consistent, Looper's plays pretty fast and loose with how causality should operate, but it doesn't really matter because the way its contextualize makes it clear it isn't the point. FFVIII's way of doing it is just... frustratingly vague. And I get what drive Ultimecia is fear of her past and being hurt in the future, which represents Squall's more destructive impulses, but just because we can sit here and say that doesn't mean the game does a good job itself surfacing that theme.
Dunno if it was posted in this thread yet (or if everyone has seen it) but the design of the Ring of the Lucii in FF15 is apparently a neat reference to one of the occult magazines from FF8
Seifer gets his instructions from Rinoa in disk 2 if you remember. Before she collapses she goes to Seifer and cradles his head, then passes out. It's then that she orders Seifer to find the Lunatic Panora for her, as she wants Adel.
Seifer is 2nd in command to Edea who is in charge of the nation, so with Edea gone, and the president is dead, Seifer is the next in line. It's like a military coup. I think the public are unhappy with Seifer in charge and would have eventually tried to dispose of him, but in the mean time Seifer is in charge.
You can visit General Caraway throughout, he has a few things to say. He has been kicked out long before because of the assassination attempt, and is currently sulking about Rinoa in his study.
Now I hope i'm not going to over complicate things, but I don't think Adel was possessed when she was defeated by Laguna, unless i'm forgetting a plot point/scene. Adel is systematically kidnapping girls in Laguna's time because she wants an heir. She finds Ellone and singles her out as a good candidate due to her power. Its not related to time compression at this point.
Ah now this is where I have to disagree, I think it and am saying it now because the game presents it to us. In the final battle Ultimecia's dialogue, combined with her previous actions makes that really clear to me.
I don't know if you know the fan theory of Rinoa/Ulti but that is because of what Ultimecia says in the final battle and points to her inability to let go of the past, which relates directly to Squall's own issues. The Rinoa/Ulti theory is an extension of that theme.
Dunno if it was posted in this thread yet (or if everyone has seen it) but the design of the Ring of the Lucii in FF15 is apparently a neat reference to one of the occult magazines from FF8
There are some tiny differences... but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a reference considering the two games share a lot of the same developers. Does the ring in FF8 have a name?
There are some tiny differences... but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a reference considering the two games share a lot of the same developers. Does the ring in FF8 have a name?
I buy that Seifer was acting on Ultimecia's orders by way of Rinoa; I don't exactly buy that the Galbadian Military would. They're fascist assholes, sure, but Edea has up and left and suddenly they're now going to take orders from her lapdog? That seems a bit of a stretch to me.
My headcanon though with Galbadia is that back in the Sorceress War many Galbadian soldiers were idealists like Laguna who just wanted to protect the continent from Estharian aggression. By the time of the game though the military had become a nepotistic cesspool of thugs and sociopaths, who keep the civilians in the mother country satiated through plunder taken from the occupied territories under their jackboot.
I don't remember Caraway being discharged from his post, he seemed to still have influence as he pulled strings to have Rinoa released from D-District Prison.
Yeah but Rinoa puts Ultimecia's conciousness in the young Adel. I mean to me it makes sense, how else would Adel know to search for Adel besides knowing about her existence through the causal time loop?
I'm talking about presentation though. FFVIII kinda buries the lead on that sort of stuff by putting the (frankly nonsensical) mechanics of time travel front and center, while the themes have to be sifted to find. If the idea of the 'Succession of Witches' was a theme more visible in the narrative/game world early on, as well as potentially the idea of a 'final witch/sorceress', that'd go a long way to making these elements feel more congruent, much like my criticism about the Lunar Cry..
I mean, my point though is having neat ideas is only half of the equation; how those are presented and contextualized matters too. Don't get me wrong, I get how not coming to terms with the past and fear about the future are major themes in the game, and some moments are handled very well. Just all the time travel stuff has been sort of 'what... well, okay...' to me.
Also sorry it's taken me so long to get around to writing his reply. I've been busy moving into college and starting classes, it's b been really hectic. I'll try beating VIII this weekend.
OP probably can't handle the amazingness of the final dungeon.
Got lost in time compression?
Believe in the power of love and friendship to find your way back ...
We'll be waiting... here ... We promise ;-)
More like got lost in graduate school/ Battlefield 1 beta; essentially same thing.
Hopefully sometime this week I'll be able to put aside 4 or 5 hours to.beating Ultimecia's castle. No shame in using a guide, right?
More like got lost in graduate school/ Battlefield 1 beta; essentially same thing.
Hopefully sometime this week I'll be able to put aside 4 or 5 hours to.beating Ultimecia's castle. No shame in using a guide, right?
Worst FF, it's best for XV to separate it's from it the better.
I get migraine trying to play this.
I would recommend NOT using a guide, actually.
Like...Disc 4 is something else. Pure gameplay? Using a guide would spoil it hard.
BOOOOO
Ok fine.
Just don't use a guide for the Painting room, or the Piano room.
Fuck everything, I think I made the game unwinnable by choosing Limit Break as the first seal to break. Whelp guess I'm doing Lunatic Pandora again.
Yeah, Unlock Magic deffo, as the next boss(Tri-Point) is weak to Fire/Ice and won't counterattack when you use either type of spell.(Casting protect is also good.)
Before Junctioning? I figure I could junction affinities he's weak against to my weapons.
Also is the organ music something I can find the notes to in the game or am I just supposed to know it?
You can junction magic freely at any point in Ultimecia Castle, just can't use it without Magic command. Frankly speaking, if you are relatively beefed up, you can clear whole dungeon with Limit Breaks and something for healing, like Magic or Items.Before Junctioning? I figure I could junction affinities he's weak against to my weapons.
Also is the organ music something I can find the notes to in the game or am I just supposed to know it?
You can junction magic freely at any point in Ultimecia Castle, just can't use it without Magic command. Frankly speaking, if you are relatively beefed up, you can clear whole dungeon with Limit Breaks and something for healing, like Magic or Items.
Organ music you need to hit all notes at the same time, but it only leads to Rosetta Stone, not to any boss.