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[ScherzoPrime]

My issue is the implication of women succumbing to their own power and needing to be 'protected' from it. I know I must be sounding like a pedant, but to me it's the exact opposite of empowering.

 

[Jennipeg]

I guess, but it's kinda hard to ignore the gendered implications of a Sorceress requiring a Knight to be 'whole'. It's not about camaraderie in the abstract, but playing into chivalrous notions of being 'protected'.

Like this is from the FF Wiki:



That strikes me as dependency, not interdependence.

That's a legit takeaway, the inspiration is a Knight and his Lady, King Arthur style, which is what Seifer was obsessed with and we saw in the movie Laguna made. But even in that world times have changed, the roles remain in their essence but they can be adapted to fit modern sensibilities. Cid isn't running around in a suit of armour and women are in the military and running countries, times have moved on for them too.

"A knight will present you with peace of mind. He will protect your spirit."

That in itself is so abstract, it could refer to someone's mother. Actually thinking about it, that description sounds more like a stereotypical female role, it's not physical protection it's emotional, and they have flipped it. If anyone is in charge i'd say the Sorceress with the Knight as a back up singer lol.

 

[BocoDragon]

If I reverse the genders, the Sorceress/Sorceress' Knight dynamic reminds me of Iron Man and Pepper Potts, or a million other "strong man, and the subordinate woman who helps him and occasionally keeps him in check" dynamics.

So the question would be... Does the narrative itself imply that being a woman is the reason for needing a protector?

I know it's hard to tease apart, being that the game only features female sorceresses.

And it's a rhetorical question on my part, being that I'm headed to sleep

 

[Jennipeg]

If I reverse the genders, the Sorceress/Sorceress' Knight dynamic reminds me of Iron Man and Pepper Potts, or a million other "strong man, and the subordinate woman who helps him and occasionally keeps him in check" dynamics.

So the question would be... Does the narrative itself imply that being a woman is the reason for needing a protector?

I know it's hard to tease apart, being that the game only features female sorceresses.

And it's a rhetorical question on my part, being that I'm headed to sleep

That's the exact thing that just occurred to me in my post above yours. lol

You also have to wonder why women are the only people strong enough to inherit this power, I don't think it's about being empowered it's about being strong enough to carry the burden. And in this world women are the only one's who can, but they need a bit of help along the way.

It also reminds me of the quote 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Having someone there to remind them of their human nature helps stop them becoming consumed by their own power. That's not the same as saying 'me Tarzan you Jane'

 

[Jennipeg]

My issue is the implication of women succumbing to their own power and needing to be 'protected' from it. I know I must be sounding like a pedant, but to me it's the exact opposite of empowering.

BIB, No not at all, it's an interesting topic, I love getting into the nitty gritty of things like this.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I guess, but it's kinda hard to ignore the gendered implications of a Sorceress requiring a Knight to be 'whole'. It's not about camaraderie in the abstract, but playing into chivalrous notions of being 'protected'.

Like this is from the FF Wiki:



That strikes me as dependency, not interdependence.

*SPOILERS, not sure what youve played but..spoilers for the game.*


Its not about depending on someone else. Its about having someone to talk with.

Take Seifer for example. He wanted to be a knight. Not for love. And in a way it was him depending on Edea for emotional stability.

There is interdependence there. Like, a powerful being, who is alone, becomes bitter, a recluse, and evil/mad isnt a trope invented by FF8. So for someone like Edea to tell Rinoa she needed a Knight, wasnt about telling her to depend on Squall, but to have a companion in life.

Sorceresses, as presented in FF8, are quite capable on their own. They dont need to depend on anyone. But in that world, theyre ostracized, seen as evil, shunned. To have a companion who is a friend, a knight, is to stop a Sorceress from losing their minds from being alone.

Dependency...nah, its Squall whos dependent on others. He has a mental breakdown because hes afraid of being left alone, as a memory.

Squalls the broken one in the game. Not Rinoa.

Spoiler

On the flipside, you have Ultimecia whos broken in her own way. Except in Ultimecias case, she had power to make things go her way

.

Like Jenni and Boco quaintly said, it flips the dynamic of a strong man with a tender woman. In this case its a strong Sorceress with a tender knight.

Both Squall and Seifer are extremely emotional in the game. They both commit selfish acts, theyre both on the verge of losing their shit. Edea and later on Rinoa are capable and able to come to a conclusion. After all it was Rinoa who lead the Timber resistance.

And as far as calling them knights...the Sorceresses are more than capable of defending themselves. A whole army needed to defeat Adel and to only seal her. So being a Knight is more of an honorary title, because if a Sorceress wanted to(and it was shown), they can easily defeat anyone assailing her and a knight.

But...Sorceresses are still humans. They can still succumb to human vices, and when they have absolute power and are feared by regular people, them going mad with power if not kept in check is a possibility. So having a companion...becomes a necessity. Remember, in the world of FF8, witches are feared. Witches have absolute power over life. Heck, you never kill a witch in the game-you only weaken them and cause them transfer their power, meaning that the only way they die is when they give up their power.

 

[Vetro]

Thanks OP. Good times with this game.
Going to start mine i-don't-know-how-much-it-is replay today. Never did 100%.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

You also have to wonder why women are the only people strong enough to inherit this power, I don't think it's about being empowered it's about being strong enough to carry the burden. And in this world women are the only one's who can, but they need a bit of help along the way.

I don't think the game states that it's a matter of strength. If I recall correctly, why only women can be Sorceresses is because that's where Hyne hid his power ("in women").

 

[Don_Tombery]

I always interpreted it in a 'power corrupts' way.
Gifted such enormous powers to a till this point 'normal' human is a huge challenge for their character. So the person needs someone to stay grounded. This person just happens to be called ' the Sorceress Knight' in this game. But if I remember correct it is never directly specified it has to be a knight as in 'Male with sword'. Cid is everything but a classical knight. He's more a caring husband to keep Edea grounded. And isn't 'knight' itself more a kind of a role and as such genderless. I think nothing in the game speaks against the possibility of female knights?

I want to so see it this way: The 'knight' is what a sorceress needs to stay connected to this world, something that is so important to her that she doesn't go the 'fuck this world and these filthy humans. I'm a god!' way. This can be a protector, a lover, a caring friend etc.depending on the character of the Sorceress.

 

[Jennipeg]

I don't think the game states that it's a matter of strength. If I recall correctly, why only women can be Sorceresses is because that's where Hyne hid his power ("in women").

True, but my mind likes to wonder why Hyne chose women only, did he see something in them specifically? Not physical strength but strength of spirit perhaps? What gives women an affinity with magic? Just my musings.

 

[TokiDoki]

You need to be fore-bearing for 2 more months now .

 

[7DollarHagane]

I think the only major thing I didn't like about ff8 was it's main villain. It kind of coems out of nowhere and just checks the box of "world ending mega threat" that the game didn't need.

Simply making the game about the characters and survival of their way of life would have been better.

 

[RetroHazard]

Throughout the years, and the countless people I've talked to, I'd always felt my opinion of VIII was an unpopular one. That is, one of (if not) the best overall entry to the Final Fantasy franchise since it's 3D inception. It's nice to see so much love for it in this thread.

One of my all time favorites, and right behind VI as far as Final Fantasy goes.

 

[GoodMorningPluto]

I think the only major thing I didn't like about ff8 was it's main villain. It kind of coems out of nowhere and just checks the box of "world ending mega threat" that the game didn't need.

Simply making the game about the characters and survival of their way of life would have been better.

If you mean that you see her face to face for the first time at the end of Disc 4, then sure, she comes out of nowhere. But she appears first at Disc 1, and her speech at the end of Disc 1 reveals some information about her motivation.
Ultimecia is an interesting character conceptually, maybe not the best written, but I like the idea of trying to escape destiny only to succumb even more to it.
And how can you say that she is not needed when whole witch hunting and her seeking revenge for it is basically a setup of this game?

 

[Boss Doggie]

Squall's character gets better the moment you realize why he does that. It's a facade.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

True, but my mind likes to wonder why Hyne chose women only, did he see something in them specifically? Not physical strength but strength of spirit perhaps? What gives women an affinity with magic? Just my musings.

He thought women would make a good hiding place, but yeah, why he thought so is anyone's guess. It could be for strength just as well as weakness (maybe he thought, "no one would suspect that my power is hidden in such innocent beings" / "no one would have the idea to look there").

Ultimecia is an interesting character conceptually, maybe not the best written, but I like the idea of trying to escape destiny only to succumb even more to it.
And how can you say that she is not needed when whole witch hunting and her seeking revenge for it is basically a setup of this game?

I like that they managed to make an original character out of a plot device that they had already used in a previous FF (the time loop from FF1).

 

[Meliora]

My issue is the implication of women succumbing to their own power and needing to be 'protected' from it. I know I must be sounding like a pedant, but to me it's the exact opposite of empowering.

I think the focus isn't on women succumbing to their own power, but that sorceresses might and they happen to be women. If men could inherit the power too, it would still be the same thing I think, that the sorceresses/sorcerers would need someone to share the burden with. So Edea's comment isn't on women, but on the burden of the sorceress powers and how powerful and dangerous they can be. Power corrupts and all that.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I always interpreted it in a 'power corrupts' way.
Gifted such enormous powers to a till this point 'normal' human is a huge challenge for their character. So the person needs someone to stay grounded. This person just happens to be called ' the Sorceress Knight' in this game. But if I remember correct it is never directly specified it has to be a knight as in 'Male with sword'. Cid is everything but a classical knight. He's more a caring husband to keep Edea grounded. And isn't 'knight' itself more a kind of a role and as such genderless. I think nothing in the game speaks against the possibility of female knights?

I want to so see it this way: The 'knight' is what a sorceress needs to stay connected to this world, something that is so important to her that she doesn't go the 'fuck this world and these filthy humans. I'm a god!' way. This can be a protector, a lover, a caring friend etc.depending on the character of the Sorceress.

Right, this actually comes from Hynes story. In the game, Hynes story is told a couple times, but usually by background characters telling the story to someone else.

Hyne created the world, he created people. He went to sleep and let people continue creating the world for him. When he woke up, he saw that the people had become too numerous, so he decided to kill a bunch of children. That's the first time power corrupted-and that's the first time the people revolted against Hyne-The first Sorceress(I find it interesting they call him a Sorceress, even though it's the female variant of sorcerer).

Maybe that's where the need of a 'Knight' came from? So that another Sorceress like Hyne wouldn't become corrupted with power and start slaughtering the people?

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Wooooow, Odine's explanation of how we're going to beat Ultimecia is a whooooole lot of nonsense.

To sort of wrap up the Sorcerer's Knight discussion, it'd be one thing if Edea had gone "You need friends to emotionally support you on your journey." That's entirely different from saying "You need a special someone to keep you from turning evil".

And the Oral Legend about Hyne, from what I read on FFWiki, says that Hyne's powers manifested in women because he thought they should be protected. So yeah.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Wooooow, Odine's explanation of how we're going to beat Ultimecia is a whooooole lot of nonsense.

To sort of wrap up the Sorcerer's Knight discussion, it'd be one thing if Edea had gone "You need friends to emotionally support you on your journey." That's entirely different from saying "You need a special someone to keep you from turning evil".

And the Oral Legend about Hyne, from what I read on FFWiki, says that Hyne's powers manifested in women because he thought they should be protected. So yeah.

Theres 3 times Hynes story is told in full, in or out of the game. The one you mention, where women should be protected, comes from the Prima guides excerpt of the legend, and thats the only one that mentions that.

 

[flyover]

I'm finally catching up on this thread, ScherzoPrime, and wanted to thank you for starting it -- and thank you and everyone else here for keeping it going! I like FFVIII well enough. But I think I now like reading about it even more than playing it.

 

[Muffdraul]

For the longest time this blue spots bugged to me. They are supposed to mark the location of Centra Excavation Site, the place Laguna visits in one of the dreams.

I thought this crater in Trabia was the result of missile launch, but apparently it's the aftermath of Lunar Cry 17 years ago that Laguna also was witness to.

I love this little tidbits of environmental storytelling. One of the best FF8 features is its great attention to worlduilding.

I thought the Trabia crater was where Odine excavated the Crystal Pillar so he could create the Lunatic Pandora for Adel. I assumed that was why it was so symmetrical and even had corners.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Haha Seifer went out like a chump; also liked his friends finally going 'screw this we're out of here'.

I sort of think there are like glimmers of strong themes with a lot of these narrative elements, but they way they've come together so far has been rather... haphazard. I'll probably do an 'End of Disc 3' Thoughts post after I have dinner.

I thought the Trabia crater was where Odine excavated the Crystal Pillar so he could create the Lunatic Pandora for Adel. I assumed that was why it was so symmetrical and even had corners.

Nah, the Luntaric Pandora is from Centra; you explore it as Laguna in the flashbacks.

 

[Muffdraul]

Nah, the Luntaric Pandora is from Centra; you explore it as Laguna in the flashbacks.

I remember him exploring inside the Pandora, I don't remember it being in Centra. But it was a long time ago. Anyway I can't think of any other reason the Trabia crater is so perfectly and artificially shaped. Not like they had any trouble making things look organic and random elsewhere in the world.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

END OF DISC 3 THOUGHTS

Well... that certainly got complicated.

FWIW, I haven't touched on Gameplay much beyond the first post, and that's because I've sort of broken the junction system as much as I feel comfortable with. Finding the Shumi Village and its enterprising Ultima Drawpoint salesman has made Squall hella OP, his hitting over 10 times as hard as any of my other party mates. Beyond sojourns to the village and FH (for Regen), I don't think I've done much drawing this disc (oh, also some Deaths from Tonberrys in the Centra Ruins). I also haven't died much either, I think the last time it happened was to Odin (RIP). Triple Triad seemed fun but honestly at this point I just want to critical path it; I can see why people got drawn into it though.

Anyways, a looooot of things happened over a pretty short period of time, and I can now sort of see how people can have 'problems' with FFVIII's narrative. I swallowed the Orphanage Backstory well enough; it was contrived but they handled it about as gracefully as they could. But wow has this game decided to dump a lot of narrative elements on me all at once. Ultimecia. Time Compression. Lunar Cry. And so on and so forth. There's just a mindboggling amount of information that's just dumped on the player without any grace. Odine's 'plan' for defeating Ultimecia is especially egregious. And there's a certain frustrating vagueness that permeates a lot of these elements; I get why Ellone's powers make sense from a thematic point of view, but it's frustrating that she just 'has them' when the entire plot hinges on their utilization.

Part of the problem, specifically the gracelessness, is the pacing; when the information is dulled out how it's integrated into the narrative or world. Take for example the Lunar Cry; it being used in the Sorceress War against Galbadia would give it some impact on the game world before it becomes plot relevant, and perhaps it could happen sooner; Edea looking for it in Disc 2 as a means of retrieving Adel, in addition to wanting to destroy SeeD.

Another example, Ultimecia herself. If the first time the player encounters Ultimecia was during the Ellone-induced flashback on the Space Station, that would've been really effective. Instead it's all info dumped on you by Edea and Cid near the start of the disc. That Ultimecia intends to leapfrog from Sorceress to Sorceress to collect all their powers in order to induce Time Compression is implied, but never exactly spelled out. I think there's a rather big deflation of the protagonist/antagonist struggle in Disc 3; During Disc 2 you have this sort of FFX-esqe paternal struggle over whether these kids will be able to face their foster mom. It's not the 'best' narrative but I did get the feel that an actual tension existed. Ultimecia and to a lesser extent Adel, though, are more abstract. We don't really have a personal stake in them, and since the main threat now confronting the heroes is the vague notion of 'Time Compression', it's hard to grasp what's at stake.

There's smaller quibbles I have as well, such as how did Seifer become leader of Galbadia on Edea's defeat, and how is Ultimecia relaying her commands to him? It's stuff like this that's just headscratching to me.

And I think it's a bit of a shame because there are elements I really do like. Like I mentioned there's a strong tension in disc 2 leading up to the confrontation. But there's also a lot of interesting dichotomies too. I've touched on Seifer's drunken romanticism versus Squall's precocious stoicism, but there's also a parallel between Squall and Laguna as well. Laguna in many ways is the opposite of Squall as well; he's someone who took every opportunity given to him, who lived life to it's absolute fullest. But because of that, he never really managed to put down roots, and that cost him the love of his life, and eventually set Squall down a lonely, painful path. There needs to be a happy medium between Squall's insecure introvertedness and Laguna's reckless exuberance.

Feeling trapped by the past, and eventually overcoming it by coming to terms with it, is one of the main themes of the game as far as I can tell. The feeling of being constrained by a past too complex for one person to manage, that feels foisted upon you unjustly by the world, is something many of the characters struggle with. And as much as Squall hates to admit it, it's not a struggle you can deal with alone. Keeping others from hurting you is no good when you just end up hurting yourself. By opening up and trying to understand others, we allow ourselves to be understood and not only accepted, but loved.

I think Rinoa's arc has been interesting as well. In some ways she's an inverted Yuna; she starts off as someone relatively average, an Army brat. And on top of being sociable and good-natured, I feel like she strives to be someone of circumstance; to be important and to do good. And that's what draws her to the Timber Maniacs, to the romanticism of Seifer, and finally Squall's crew. She wants to have a meaningful impact on others, and one of the ways she does that is by sincerely trying to get Squall out of his shell, understanding his introversion for insecurity and fear of being hurt. And then suddenly everything is flipped upside down when she becomes a Sorceresss; suddenly she has this incredible power that has historically been associated with evil and it terrifies her. She's become someone of circumstance by the world thrusting it upon her and it just destroys her self-esteem. And now it's Squall, who through her help has come to accept his reliance and empathy for others, who needs to help rebuild her sense of identity. I don't know if they're exactly the 'greatest' couple (Squall is cute, but I think he'd be a bit too high-maintenance to be worth the effort), but I think it's clear that they've both had a tremendous effect on each other.

There's also a bit of warning about superficial relationships; Raijin and Fujin at first stick with Seifer out of a sense of loyalty, but as the game goes on they come to realize they aren't being good friends just by enabling his delusions, and despite being at his side they've grown more and more emotionally distant from him. Seifer for his part claims he wishes to be a Sorceress's Knight, but in practice it's no more sincere than Squall's claims of being fine by himself. It's all narcissistic posturing, seeking approval from the world for his romantic actions. He doesn't seem to understand or comprehend the true magnitude of his actions; he's a kid playing make-believe.

And finally their's Ultimecia, who because of a history of Sorceress oppression which she perceives as unbearable, attempts to destroy it all, to completely annihilate the past and free herself from a world she feels unjust against her, to be forever alone. In a way it's the world Squall thought he wanted at the start, an eternal safe space where nothing, not even memories of the past, can hurt him. But that isn't really living, it's an existence indistinguishable from death. To live is to allow ourselves to be hurt, to grow, to understand and be understood. To accept who we were, who we are, and who we can become.

So yeah, a lot of this is kind of end of the night ramblings, but honestly there's a lot of character and themes I enjoy about FFVIII. It's just a lot of the plotting could be sooooo much clearer and better paced.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I agree with you. You do get kind of a dump in Disc 3 when you get to Esther and meet up with Odine, and then you go to space and get another dump there, and it is a bit overwhelming. There are some story bits you can get from multiple conversations to key characters, and IIRC you can visit the white SeeD ship during this disc to talk to some of the people there, but that stuff is tucked away.

(Btw, when you're in Timber, do you remember that screen with red text scrolling throughout it? If you read it closely, it says things like 'GET ME OUT, LET ME FREE', etc., it's Adel communicating from Space)

But yeah, the main antagonist is kinda dumped on you, and for players she's just...kinda there? Like, there is no build up to her other than she's been Xanatos Planning everything, she controlled Edea, so as a player you don't have a 'stake' in fighting her. But good post, it's always enjoyable to read someone elses experiences of playing FFVIII since it's such a divisive game in a way that no other FF is.(Except maybe FFXIII)

And you nailed Seifer and his friends down. Yeah, to Seifer, Fujin and Raijin were just enablers to his toxic behavior. He's obsessive, and has delusions of grandeur for being this knight. In doing so he loses his friends, he pushes himself farther from everyone, and kind of just isolates himself. It all wraps around to how Seifer was a bully in school and a general dick, he thought himself better, and he had Fujin and Raijin there to enable that sort of personality.

You also nailed it on Squall and Rinoas part. Like I kinda mentioned in my previous post, out of all the characters in the game, Squall and Seifer are the most 'damaged' emotionally. Rinoa however is a strong character tbh, and honestly one of the best female characters IMO out there. Like you mentioned, she's an army brat but she wants to do the right thing, she tries to get to know people, and when she becomes a Sorceress, she willingly lets herself be locked up(Before being broke free) because she doesn't want to hurt anyone and consequently not let people hate her like they did Adel.

One more disc to go~ Good Luck!

 

[paolo11]

FF 8 is one of my favorite RPG games. Squall is my favorite. I actually like all the cast. Wish they could remake that game too.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Create a separate save for Disc 4, as it is point of no return

 

[ScherzoPrime]

BTW, FFVIII (along with several other PSX FFs) is 2.99 on the US PS Store as part of a flash sale, so if any of y'all would like to join in, now's probably the best time (until the next sale at least).

 

[potatohead]

Same problem exists in Final Fantasy VII.

A lot of the story is weak and really random in the last third/quarter of the game.

It's not bad, but it's not as well done as what came before.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Same problem exists in Final Fantasy VII.

A lot of the story is weak and really random in the last third/quarter of the game.

It's not bad, but it's not as well done as what came before.

I dunno, Meteor/Weapons/Holy are all tied into the idea of the Planet having a lifeforce that seeks to preserve itself. The theme of how man has perverted nature, and nature is taking its revenge, runs parallel to the party's personal struggle. It's not the 'greatest' narrative, but it's nowhere near as contrived as many of FFVIII's info dumps as of late have been.

 

[Narroo]

I dunno, Meteor/Weapons/Holy are all tied into the idea of the Planet having a lifeforce that seeks to preserve itself. The theme of how man has perverted nature, and nature is taking its revenge, runs parallel to the party's personal struggle. It's not the 'greatest' narrative, but it's nowhere near as contrived as many of FFVIII's info dumps as of late have been.

Same problem exists in Final Fantasy VII.

A lot of the story is weak and really random in the last third/quarter of the game.

It's not bad, but it's not as well done as what came before.

I assume you're referencing FFVI? I only got as far as

Spoiler

Dinner with the emperor, although I know how the game ends.

With that in mind, I felt the narrative of FFVI had some major issues. The tone of the game was all over the place and a lot of plot elements were forced. It made it too hard to take the more serious portions of the game seriously when it felt like something random would happen every other cutscene.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

I assume you're referencing FFVI? I only got as far as

Spoiler

Dinner with the emperor, although I know how the game ends.

With that in mind, I felt the narrative of FFVI had some major issues. The tone of the game was all over the place and a lot of plot elements were forced. It made it too hard to take the more serious portions of the game seriously when it felt like something random would happen every other cutscene.

We're talking about FFVII

 

[Lights and Waves]

I dunno, Meteor/Weapons/Holy are all tied into the idea of the Planet having a lifeforce that seeks to preserve itself. The theme of how man has perverted nature, and nature is taking its revenge, runs parallel to the party's personal struggle. It's not the 'greatest' narrative, but it's nowhere near as contrived as many of FFVIII's info dumps as of late have been.

FF7's info dump at the end of the game is a convoluted mess. Had they not really spelled things about with supplementary material (crisis core, advent children) a lot of it wouldn't make as much sense as it does now.

 

[Jennipeg]

FF7's info dump at the end of the game is a convoluted mess. Had they not really spelled things about with supplementary material (crisis core, advent children) a lot of it wouldn't make as much sense as it does now.

Yeah I've always found FF7's narrative a mess from disk 2 onwards. Back in the day I had to read up on whether Cloud was a clone or not because I just couldn't follow it. (in my defence I was like 11 at the time) But even on replays It only makes sense because I know. And where exactly did the large materia/black materia get mentioned before we suddenly had to go look for it?

I love FF7 but it does have issues in it's presentation of the narrative, especially when it doesn't bother to tell you anything. I don't remember having to visit every available location to try and trigger a cutscene of some kind in the other FF's. And that's because the game doesn't give any clue about what comes next. I don't need spoon feeding but I also don't expect to need a guide to look up how to trigger the next story section. Even in something as open as the Witcher, you know where the story triggers are.

 

[Narroo]

We're talking about FFVII

He said 'The same problem exists in FFVII. Not as well done as what came before."

 

[Jennipeg]

He said 'The same problem exists in FFVII. Not as well done as what came before."

I think he meant the latter 3rd of Final Fantasy VII is not as good as it's opening section.

 

[kromeo]

I think he meant the latter 3rd of Final Fantasy VII is not as good as it's opening section.

True for all 3 of the ps1 masterpieces tbh

 

[DiipuSurotu]

All the FF games lose steam in the last 3rd except FFXIII.

 

[Narroo]

True for all 3 of the ps1 masterpieces tbh

Yeah, all three of them do fall apart a bit in the final acts. FFVII wasn't too bad, but the game felt a bit like filler with the giant material fetch quest that came to nothing. FFVIII is FFVIII, and FFIX just kinda happened.

 

[Omadahl]

My least favorite FF of that era but you can't deny the card game or the amazing soundtrack.

 

[Lights and Waves]

All the FF games lose steam in the last 3rd except FFXIII.

Hm, I'd say they all (modern FF games) gain steam in the last third. That's usually the best part of the game.

I could see how 7 slows down at the end, but X, X-2, the Lightning trilogy, and 8 all get pretty challenging and intense toward the end of the game.

 

[potatohead]

I dunno, Meteor/Weapons/Holy are all tied into the idea of the Planet having a lifeforce that seeks to preserve itself. The theme of how man has perverted nature, and nature is taking its revenge, runs parallel to the party's personal struggle. It's not the 'greatest' narrative, but it's nowhere near as contrived as many of FFVIII's info dumps as of late have been.

No I agree that the overarching story makes sense, it's just that the last part of the second disc is weakly executed. And the third disc narrative.

What came before in the first disc was GOD-like, so it's difficult to match up to.

I assume you're referencing FFVI? I only got as far as

Spoiler

Dinner with the emperor, although I know how the game ends.

With that in mind, I felt the narrative of FFVI had some major issues. The tone of the game was all over the place and a lot of plot elements were forced. It made it too hard to take the more serious portions of the game seriously when it felt like something random would happen every other cutscene.

I'm referencing FF VII.

It's my favourite Final Fantasy. Some of the scenes in the late game are just not that interesting, or too short, or just weakly executed.

Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy IX are different in this way, they stay at a consistent level for the most part towards their endings, and in the case of CC get even more awesome. Besides FF IX's more abrupt climax I guess and "it was the crystals" ending.

 

[potatohead]

Also I get a lot of the superficial aesthetic relation of FF VIII to FF XV in a way. The age group, the setting kind of? Maybe? It was definitely the most fashionista of the PS1 FF games easily, but beyond those things I can't think of much else.

Even what we know of the stories between the two are drastically different. And so are the central characters and relationships also very different. Let alone the female party members.

So I kind of get where that title is coming from, but tbh when I look at FF VIII I want to play that, whereas when I look at FF XV I just feel confused and wonder what I am doing with my life.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

I'm somewhat of a latecomer to the FF Fandom. I played FFX around the time it came out, but truth be told I never completely beat it (I'm stuck on Jecht's Final Aeon on the PS3/PSV version and only up to Kilika in the PS4 one). Other FF met a similar fate; I made it to the final dungeons of FFXII, XIII, and IX only to peter out, and with VI I only made it as far as the World of Ruin.In fact, the first and so far only FF I've beaten is FFVII, which I started and completed in about a two week frenzy of excitement immediately following its remake's announcement last June. Despite my lack of nostalgia (I was only 5 when it came out originally), I was really impressed with the game, primarily its strong characterizations (Materia junctioning was pretty neat too)

It's with that background I've begun playing FFVIII.

I actually have played bits of FFVIII before over the years, as well as FFVII, through emulation, before finally purchasing both within recent years for the PSVita. My introduction to FFVIII was rather inauspicious, through Spoony's lengthy teardown of the game. But as I read up on it, mainly through wiki and through friends who've played it, it always sounded fascinating to me, even if the plot goes pear-shaped down the line. Most of that is due to...

SETTING

(Fanmade map: http://ms-06f.deviantart.com/art/Galbadia-Intelligence-Directorate-World-Factbook-352948855 ; some deviations from canon)

This may be a bit pedantic, but one of the weakest elements (to me) of FFVII was its worldbuilding. Midgar, off course, is this fantastically realized Dieselpunk setting, but ass soon as you leave it the first village you encounter is Kalm, a quaint pastoral mining town. And this is true for most of the world map; once you leave Midgar or Junon (and perhaps Costa del Sol), all the villages you run into are small and pre-industrial. There's really no need for such massive exploitation of Mako because so much of the world are small farming or mining towns that wouldn't have been out of place in an earlier Final Fantasy.

And obviously there's a reason for this; this was the first 3D FF after all. There's a 'throw everything against the wall and see what sticks' mentality, especially in creating 3D models. There is obviously an undeniable charm of fighting an evil robot house, but the end result is a rather haphazard setting

Now, I'm not going to claim that FFVIII has the most grounded setting, but there's a certain relatability, to both its geopolitics and society, that makes it the most 'realistic' of FFs (up until XV at least). There's something familiar about a military dictatorship (which ostensibly styles itself as a Republic) oppressing its neighbors while locked in a cold war with an foriegn power it treats as an existential threat. Child soldiers are still a somewhat silly concept (more on that in Characters), and the ultimate reason for why SeeD exists is dumb, but the factions as first appear make sense within the world the game has crafted. There's a much greater sense of cohesion here.


But even more impressive is how it tries to create a society that is familiar to ours. Certain aesthetics on things like buildings and vehicles veer towards the weird and overdesigned, but how people are presented living their lives and just, well, being people, goes a long way toward making FFVIII feel like a fully realized world.

CHARACTERS

Unfortunately, this is an area where FFVIII clearly lags behind VII. Whereas VII more than makes up for its haphazard setting with compelling characters, VIII in contrast centers around characters who feel comparatively less colorful and flat, at least so far. I understand what they are going with in Squall, especially contrasting his apathy and precociousness with Seifer's romanticism. But apathy is a poor substitute for Cloud's boastfulness, and create's a barrier that keeps the player for really feeling for him, even as he displays questions about what he's actually fighting/living for.

The rest of the cast so far has felt similarly undercooked. Quistis seems to be the Team Mom, a proto-Lulu of sorts in terms of a relatively young woman being placed into a position of authority. But where as Lulu's pressures are handled pretty subtly, Quistis's anxieties border on incompetence. At the point I am just at in the game, Quistis mid-mission decides to abandon her post to go apologize to Rinoa; which is flagrantly petty and unprofessional. Rinoa herself obviously seems to be a proto-Yuna (with maybe a little Tifa perhaps?), though I haven't gotten a good feel for her yet to be completely honest. Zell and Selphie have yet to rise above being an irritating spaz and klutz, respectively, and I find it doubtful that they ever will.

The point overall is there's a certain flatness so far to how the characters feel, especially in regards to FFVII. I think at least some of that has to do with...

WRITING

I heard that, following complaints about FFVII 'liberal' translation, FFVIII was the first FF where the localizers had access to the plot and characters while the game was in development. I don't know if this is true or not, but there is a definite difference in the tone of much of the dialogue. Not to oversell it, but there is definitely a more restrained feel to a lot of it. Not to say there still aren't plenty of silly moments, but overall there is less of a comic vibe to the proceedings.

Unfortunately, the lack of color does not come with a corresponding increasing in depth, or at least enough to compensate. There feels like there's overreach going on; that the creators want a more serious, grounded (can't really comment on the time shenanigans yet) narrative but don't know exactly how to go about it. There is a sense of a lot of ambition here that they are falling a bit short of, which is a shame, but obviously each game created is a learning process. I think it stands out to me though because it encapsulates a lot of my anxieties about FFXV; will Tabata and his fellow creative directors have the narrative and character writing chops to realize the realistic setting they're trying to create? That's an open question as far as I'm concerned.

And... finally...

DRAWINGGAMEPLAY

It's alright. I mean, that's how I felt about FFVII as well. Drawing is a little tedious, but the flipside people don't often talk about is that it eliminates the need for level grinding. I think it's a less elegant system than Materia Junctioning, but it's an interesting system it's own right. I'd be interested in feedback into how best manage my GF and Magic, as it's somewhat overwhelming. But the actual combat is completely acceptable, if slightly thoughtless. Compared to the long slog of grinding I'm facing down to complete Persona 3 though, the snappiness of encounters and short length of dungeons is rather appealing to me. So again, it strikes me as just fine, if unexceptional.

CONCLUSION

All in all, I'm somewhat less impressed by VIII than VII or IX. It lacks the strong characters that made those two games so memorable. But the setting, and snappy clip the narrative is going at combined with relatively minimal grinding, has kept me engaged with the game in a way that I feel compelled to keep playing, even if I know on some level the plot payoffs will probably be somewhat underwhelming. I still hold out hope that there might be more depth to the characters than generally acknowledged, but the hokey nature of some of the plot twists later on that I've been aware of dampen my confidence. Still, I've enjoyed the ride well enough so far, so I hope to beat it before XV releases, so I might compare it with this early stab at 'Fantasy based on Reality'.

Midgar being a technological but horribly classist society in the middle of a ton of "backwards" low tech towns is an intentional visual reference to the nature of Third Worlds and Class.

Midgar is run by a bunch of exploitative mass murdering technocrat capitalists who are resisting a grass roots terrorist group fighting for their own right to self determination of land and resources.

It's a story been told over and over since the 1950s.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I dunno, Meteor/Weapons/Holy are all tied into the idea of the Planet having a lifeforce that seeks to preserve itself. The theme of how man has perverted nature, and nature is taking its revenge, runs parallel to the party's personal struggle. It's not the 'greatest' narrative, but it's nowhere near as contrived as many of FFVIII's info dumps as of late have been.

I'd argue ffviii is not info dump central

hints and world building and even story elements are scattered all over the world

 

[ethomaz]

One of worst and most boring FF created.

But the card game paid it price.

 

[Pifje]

One of worst and most boring FF created.

Why?

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Yeah I've always found FF7's narrative a mess from disk 2 onwards. Back in the day I had to read up on whether Cloud was a clone or not because I just couldn't follow it. (in my defence I was like 11 at the time) But even on replays It only makes sense because I know. And where exactly did the large materia/black materia get mentioned before we suddenly had to go look for it?

I love FF7 but it does have issues in it's presentation of the narrative, especially when it doesn't bother to tell you anything. I don't remember having to visit every available location to try and trigger a cutscene of some kind in the other FF's. And that's because the game doesn't give any clue about what comes next. I don't need spoon feeding but I also don't expect to need a guide to look up how to trigger the next story section. Even in something as open as the Witcher, you know where the story triggers are.

You know, I was gonna say I thought it was a pretty clear run from Mideel to Midgar to the Northern Crater, but then I had forgotten all that weird shit with Huge Materia in North Corel and Rocket Town, plus the futsing about with the Submarine and having to do Fort Condor if you hadn't already. Yeah, Disc 2 kinda wallows about a bit.

I felt though that Tifa helping Cloud uncover his identity in Mideel though was pretty powerful, and made it clear that this was the 'real' Cloud, which was reinforced later by the Zack flashbacks. Obviously a sort of weird translation didn't help, but I felt it came across pretty well.

Midgar being a technological but horribly classist society in the middle of a ton of "backwards" low tech towns is an intentional visual reference to the nature of Third Worlds and Class.

Midgar is run by a bunch of exploitative mass murdering technocrat capitalists who are resisting a grass roots terrorist group fighting for their own right to self determination of land and resources.

It's a story been told over and over since the 1950s.

But the problem isn't the rest of the world is Third World Slums, the rest of the world is Idyllic villages. If you don't live in Midgar or Junon, you don't really need the massive amounts of energy Mako provides.

I'd also say the Class struggle element is a bit understated. Obviously it's there to an extent with the whole 'Pizza' thing, but I think that takes a backseat to the idea of man recklessly perverting nature for shortsighted gain.

I'd argue ffviii is not info dump central

hints and world building and even story elements are scattered all over the world

Eh, there are references to the Lunar Cry in places, but they're sort of blink and you'll miss it tidbits. You'd have no way of knowing that they'd become critically plot relevant.

At anyrate it doesn't change the fact that people do info dump you on the nature of the plot and how to stop it, but even then it's still pretty frustratingly vague.

 

[ethomaz]

Why?

First it is boring because the characters are uninspiring without any charisma to the point some NPCs or the coadjutants are more interesting than the main cast with maybe Irvine being the only exception.

The story is slow with a bad pace... and to be fair it was not intriguing or give you the sensation of a adventure... the romantic part was really not well made.

I know that part (story, characters, etc) is possible subjective but not the next one...

Now the one of the worst FF created... the game is fundamentally broke at the point that the battle system is garbage... magic was made useless and the customizations have no unique fell or use... the level system makes the game even worst.

It is a game you have no progress or like I how to say grow in your party... there is no challenge or anything like. There is nothing to grab about the game unless you thing the first game to have a themed song by a popular music artist.

It was a really bad moment for Squaresoft that needed to made a new FF to cater the fans after this low quality game for FF standards... it was used by Squaresoft to show what they can't do in a FF and with that in mind they created the really great FFIX and fans loved.

I'm at least glad FFVIII existed because from it feedback Squaresoft created FFIX.

PS. I played the game on launch... not LTTP like most FFs fans are today (I'm 34 years old <3).