Angelus Errare
Banned
Rinoa, Irving, Squall = best group. Rofflestomped the game with them. Omega weapon was a joke, got all three low on life. Rinoa kept casting invincible moon, Squall lionheart, Irving
can't remember what his was called but yea
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LTTP FFVIII: The Aesthetic Fore-bearer to FFXV
- Thread starter ScherzoPrime
- Start date
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Yeah it does make sense that she has 'collected' all the sorceress power and is the last one, but when she transfers her powers to Edea then, doesn't Edea become incredible powerful too and get all the sorceress power from every sorceress like Ultimecia had? And then by the time Ultimecia gets her powers back, she gets what she had the last loop + power from different sorceress this time around? Lol timeloops are so confusing.
vainglorious
Member
Yeah. The time loop creates some really interesting paradoxes. But what you're saying is completely correct, I'm sure as each time loop passes there's an incredible build of sorceress power to the point where Squall and the others will eventually be unable to stop Ultimecia and maybe that's how she breaks the time loop and wins in the end. Maybe that was her plan all along! lol
DiipuSurotu
Banned
According to one of the entries in the Tutorial glossary menu, sorceress power weakens with each succession:
"When a sorceress is about to die, she gives her power to the next person who 'inherits' her sorceress powers. According to Odine's research, the power tends to weaken with each succession."
Unfortunately, Square fucked up and this entry cannot be unlocked in a normal game unless you hack it, lol.
"When a sorceress is about to die, she gives her power to the next person who 'inherits' her sorceress powers. According to Odine's research, the power tends to weaken with each succession."
Unfortunately, Square fucked up and this entry cannot be unlocked in a normal game unless you hack it, lol.
I'm not sure about this one,
I always thought the reason Ultimecia wanted time compression was so that she could be the last. Only she can exist in a time compressed world because time magic is her thing (Edea is ice, Rinoa healing). Sorceresses can't die until they pass on their powers so compressing time means that all of the other sorceresses die and the power has to go to Ultimecia. Meaning she is as close to the original Hyne as she can get.
Rinoa eventually get's the powers of Adel, Edea and Ultimecia, so then Rinoa passes on her powers through the generations until Ultimecia is born and get's them all back in the future.... my head hurts lol.
Rinoa eventually get's the powers of Adel, Edea and Ultimecia, so then Rinoa passes on her powers through the generations until Ultimecia is born and get's them all back in the future.... my head hurts lol.
elkniwcire
Member
I love FFVIII so much. The soundtrack still lingers in my head today.
vainglorious
Member
You're not wrong but the time loop totally supersedes it I would think. Even if the power is weakened just due to the nature of time loop I would imagine that there's a build up of it over time. The act of Ultimecia passing her powers onto Edea in the past means that the Sorceress Power itself is independent of the effects of time and is constantly being re-rolled through each time loop.
Thabass
Member
At first I hated everything about Final Fantasy VIII. I beat the game while in high school and just couldn't stand the junction system. Mostly because I really didn't understand it even though I beat the game eventually (it's not a very hard game in its own right).
Then in college I came back to it and give the old "college try" and I really enjoyed it. I mastered the junction system and didn't level up as much (these days I do level up to get more of a challenge). Then with a better understanding on how these stories work, it was more of a thrilled to me when I beat the game and saw
because of the way the character was presented in the game.
It certainly is a flawed game, but gosh, I love it now more than ever.
Then in college I came back to it and give the old "college try" and I really enjoyed it. I mastered the junction system and didn't level up as much (these days I do level up to get more of a challenge). Then with a better understanding on how these stories work, it was more of a thrilled to me when I beat the game and saw
Squall smile
It certainly is a flawed game, but gosh, I love it now more than ever.
GoodMorningPluto
Member
For the longest time this blue spots bugged to me. They are supposed to mark the location of Centra Excavation Site, the place Laguna visits in one of the dreams.
I thought this crater in Trabia was the result of missile launch, but apparently it's the aftermath of Lunar Cry 17 years ago that Laguna also was witness to.
I love this little tidbits of environmental storytelling. One of the best FF8 features is its great attention to worlduilding.
The possibility of the relatively infinite build-up of power due to the time-loop making Ultimecia invincible is pretty much impossible, because the loop will always make Rinoa an inheritor of her powers via Edea, thus making sure that Rinoa herself would always be around the same strength tier as Ultimecia 
Time loops are awesome.
For the longest time this blue spots bugged to me. They are supposed to mark the location of Centra Excavation Site, the place Laguna visits in one of the dreams.
I thought this crater in Trabia was the result of missile launch, but apparently it's the aftermath of Lunar Cry 17 years ago that Laguna also was witness to.
I love this little tidbits of environmental storytelling. One of the best FF8 features is its great attention to worlduilding.
I thought they were like mini ponds or something! And I didn't realise about the crater either. I thought I knew this game back to front but I'm still picking up titbits even now.
Laguna sure got around didn't he?
vainglorious
Member
Oh boy we're getting super meta now. Ultimecia's reasoning for compressing time is completely context driven and only hinted at through her speech in Deling City. But the entire game is a self fulfilling prophecy. Ultimecia wants to compress time as result of her actions and the time loop she created. When she casts the fascination spell in Deling City and starts saying shit like, "What happened to the ruthless Sorceress who slaughtered thousands and destroyed many nations? She stands before you now as your new ruler."
After the events of the game, Ultimecia's interference in world events and the Second Sorceress War would become well known. SEED will continue to exist many generations after Squall's and Rinoa's time and prepare for Ultimecia's eventual birth and ascent to power (when you're in compressed time you see countless White SEED dead along the beach leading up to Ultimecia's castle, which is evidence of continued struggle by SEED against Ultimecia in the distant future). It can be inferred that persecution of Sorceresses due to fear of Ultimecia would be rampant after the events of the game. I mean, who in their right mind would grow up, inherit sorceress powers, knowing the legacy of the Second Sorceress War, and then say "Oh, I want to do that" - someone who's been persecuted and abused for crimes they haven't even technically committed yet - ie Ultimecia. Ultimecia wants to compress time to escape the endless pursuit of Sorceresses by SEED. That's why she has such a complex around and absolute hatred of SEED. Ultimecia compressing time is less about her wanting to become the last sorceress (which I choose to believe she already is in her time), it's more about her wanting to escape her fate which she ironically self perpetuates by passing her powers onto Edea in the past.
That's why people peddling along the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory completely miss the point of Ultimecia and the story the game is trying to tell (which it often does poorly). One of the major themes of the game is succession. Ultimecia is a descendant and successor of Rinoa, and cannot escape the fate of Sorceresses whom are bound to their power. That's why they cannot die until their powers are passed on.
After the events of the game, Ultimecia's interference in world events and the Second Sorceress War would become well known. SEED will continue to exist many generations after Squall's and Rinoa's time and prepare for Ultimecia's eventual birth and ascent to power (when you're in compressed time you see countless White SEED dead along the beach leading up to Ultimecia's castle, which is evidence of continued struggle by SEED against Ultimecia in the distant future). It can be inferred that persecution of Sorceresses due to fear of Ultimecia would be rampant after the events of the game. I mean, who in their right mind would grow up, inherit sorceress powers, knowing the legacy of the Second Sorceress War, and then say "Oh, I want to do that" - someone who's been persecuted and abused for crimes they haven't even technically committed yet - ie Ultimecia. Ultimecia wants to compress time to escape the endless pursuit of Sorceresses by SEED. That's why she has such a complex around and absolute hatred of SEED. Ultimecia compressing time is less about her wanting to become the last sorceress (which I choose to believe she already is in her time), it's more about her wanting to escape her fate which she ironically self perpetuates by passing her powers onto Edea in the past.
That's why people peddling along the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory completely miss the point of Ultimecia and the story the game is trying to tell (which it often does poorly). One of the major themes of the game is succession. Ultimecia is a descendant and successor of Rinoa, and cannot escape the fate of Sorceresses whom are bound to their power. That's why they cannot die until their powers are passed on.
Edit -
The possibility of the relatively infinite build-up of power due to the time-loop making Ultimecia invincible is pretty much impossible, because the loop will always make Rinoa an inheritor of her powers via Edea, thus making sure that Rinoa herself would always be around the same strength tier as Ultimecia
Time loops are awesome.
lol Ok I'll give you that. But you're point is only true if Rinoa is the only remaining Sorceress of her time.
Lights and Waves
Member
Did OP ever finish the game?
ScherzoPrime
Member
Gonna avoid the Spoilers until I get to the end, though I understand the gist of Time Compression from Spoony's 'playthrough'.
So are you saying Edea's 'attack' and Limit Break are just draw casting from the environment and not Sorceress powers? Are Rinoa's Sorceress abilities reflected in her gameplay at all or does she still just use Para-Magic?
As an aside, I kinda really like how Woobie Rinoa gets over becoming a Sorceress. Girls being frightened/scared about being a monster or dangerously powerful is something I find adorable, which prooobably isn't entirely wholesome, but it is what it is.
To be a little critical so far, as much as I've been enjoying the world so far, a lot of the narrative elements do feel kind of scattershot. Ellone and the Lunar stuff in particular feel like they could've been much better woven into the framework of the game's lore, unless there's some revelation near the very end that ties it all together. I can see why a lot of people consider it a mess, even if I have been enjoying it so far.
If I were to fanwank Ellone, I think the easiest explanation would be she's part GF, ala Terra from VI. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that, but it sort of makes sense off the top of my head.
I'm about halfway through Disc 3, I figure.
So are you saying Edea's 'attack' and Limit Break are just draw casting from the environment and not Sorceress powers? Are Rinoa's Sorceress abilities reflected in her gameplay at all or does she still just use Para-Magic?
As an aside, I kinda really like how Woobie Rinoa gets over becoming a Sorceress. Girls being frightened/scared about being a monster or dangerously powerful is something I find adorable, which prooobably isn't entirely wholesome, but it is what it is.
To be a little critical so far, as much as I've been enjoying the world so far, a lot of the narrative elements do feel kind of scattershot. Ellone and the Lunar stuff in particular feel like they could've been much better woven into the framework of the game's lore, unless there's some revelation near the very end that ties it all together. I can see why a lot of people consider it a mess, even if I have been enjoying it so far.
If I were to fanwank Ellone, I think the easiest explanation would be she's part GF, ala Terra from VI. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that, but it sort of makes sense off the top of my head.
I'm about halfway through Disc 3, I figure.
Oh good lord, this is a lot for a Monday afternoon lol.
I think all of this makes that scene with Seifer in the D District prison even more compelling. I remember being so baffled when I first played it, obviously he is Ultimecia's mouth piece and only makes sense in the context of the whole game.
I never considered Edea's speech that way I admit, do you think she is talking about herself? Sorceresses have been mistrusted since the beginning because of the way they were created. (Hyne tricking humanity and legging it). Plus Adel came before, so there was a feeling of fear relating to sorceresses before anyone knew about Ultimecia. I assumed she was talking about sorceresses in general.
That said SeeD itself was created because of her and trained to eventually deal with her, so her hatred of them makes perfect sense as does the self fulfilling prophecy. I wonder how Rinoa got on assuming she married the commander of SeeD. Awkward.
I never considered Edea's speech that way I admit, do you think she is talking about herself? Sorceresses have been mistrusted since the beginning because of the way they were created. (Hyne tricking humanity and legging it). Plus Adel came before, so there was a feeling of fear relating to sorceresses before anyone knew about Ultimecia. I assumed she was talking about sorceresses in general.
That said SeeD itself was created because of her and trained to eventually deal with her, so her hatred of them makes perfect sense as does the self fulfilling prophecy. I wonder how Rinoa got on assuming she married the commander of SeeD. Awkward.
vainglorious
Member
lol I love talking FF8!
The first part of Ultimecia's speech is directly referencing herself.
"How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."
She is literally talking about herself and the condemnation and persecution she experienced growing up as a Sorceress on the run from SEED.
"How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."
She is literally talking about herself and the condemnation and persecution she experienced growing up as a Sorceress on the run from SEED.
And what I truly love about all this discussion is that no other FF villain really inspires as much nitty gritty discussion as Ultimecia does. There is so much mystery and intrigue around this villain and she is truly fascinating.
I remember when I was a kid I just assumed she was another sorceress
ScherzoPrime
Member
Haha, too busy talking amongst yourselves to respond to me? D:
vainglorious
Member
lol Sorry. Rinoa's powers are never reflected in her gameplay at all. Which is a sore spot for me too. I would have loved a new sorceress themed limit break for her but she still has fucking Angelo barking at people's heels and shit.
And the nature of Edea's powers during her guest character segment is still up for debate but I think we can all agree that from a gameplay perspective she is using para magic because you are still equipping her with a GF and junctioning magic unto her.
Her final limit break hints at that doesn't it?
vainglorious
Member
Wishing Star? You get it from reading a Pets Pal and then you have to walk like, a thousand steps with Rinoa in your party to get it. And the actual limit break is just her jumping on Angelo's back and running into enemies a bunch of times. I never though it had anything to do with her Sorceress powers nor does the game really suggest that it does.
Lolwut? Angel Wing? The Auto-Pilot Sorceress mode? Ring a bell?
See, this is the weird part because those magic effects are hers to do even with no GFs, and GFs are supposed to be the way to use Para-Magic. It kind of goes un-explained if her status as Sorceress has been transferred over to Rinoa at the end of disc 2, but then again, Squall has Blade Beam aka the reversed Orbital Laser, Selphie can sen the enemies on an express lift to heaven and Rinoa can ride her doge and together they form a shooting star so.... eh.
And to address this directly, yes. She gains a whole 'nother limit break option called Angel Wing. It puts her in a Berkserker-like, uncontrollable state where she will cast spells that she has in her stock with a really souped up magic stat. Effective use of it demands essentially stripping her down from any and all magic that you might not want her to cast and focus on leaving only the best spells there. It is mostly a flavor thing since a properly built Rinoa will always be far more powerful using Angelo since Wishing Star and the Invincibility ability are far superior where the meta-game is concerned. She will not actually use any of the stocked up spells, but her pool of magic is determined by the stock.
GoodMorningPluto
Member
Rinoa gets Angel Wing limit after getting Sorceress power. She enters sort of magic-berserk status and casts magic she has.
vainglorious
Member
Omggg. You guys are right. Sorry.
Confession, I haven't played the game in ages and I never use Rinoa in my party when I do play it. D:
Confession, I haven't played the game in ages and I never use Rinoa in my party when I do play it. D:
Ahh yea angel wing is the one i'm thinking of, maybe its not the final one. I dont use her so much either, her attack animation takes too long
vainglorious
Member
lol I forgot she gets more than one limit break, it's all good. Wishing Star is technically her final limit break. Angel Wing is a separate limit break she gets at the end of Disc 3.
I wonder how many people who are saying this is the best FF on PS1 have played it recently. It's really disappointed me, I thought it had bad writing and a stupid plot. Awesome card game though, and I appreciate that they went for a love story. Doesn't even touch FF9 for me though.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Seifer also casts some kind of fire spell in his limit break even if he has no GF equipped. How he does that is never explained and it's not just part of the gameplay (he uses that fire spell in the intro FMV).
This has led to crazy fan theories like him being the son of Edea and Cid, lol.
This has led to crazy fan theories like him being the son of Edea and Cid, lol.
As much as I love IX I found the story almost as forgettable as the nes games. Doesn't help that I hated the two main characters..
My first Final Fantasy, and still one I hold close to my heart. I don't get the hate it gets so much, though I admit the whole junctionsystem is a bit complicated at first (sure was for me as an 11 year old) and the drawing of magic isn't as handy as an MP system.
I would actually have prefered SE remaking this one then FFVII to be honest. I love FFVII, but just like OP I liked the world of FFVIII a lot more.
I would actually have prefered SE remaking this one then FFVII to be honest. I love FFVII, but just like OP I liked the world of FFVIII a lot more.
SprachBrooks
Member
I've always found Squall's indifference to Riona's tacit plea for help by saying she's dying hilarious. Definitely encapsulates the kind of character he is...and I didn't mind it one bit.
I think it's just personal preference. I played through FFVII,VIII and IX in that order two years ago and VIII was still clearly my favorite of them. I have also played through FFVIII more times than the others so for me personally it's still det best ps1 FF without a doubt.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
?? When does that happen?
In a photoshop people keep posting
Yeah same for me, I play them pretty regularly and love them all, though VIII is my favourite. It wasn't even my first, I played VII first so maybe i'm weird because your first is normally your favourite.
I have always said VIII has the best intro and outro of any game and I'm sticking to it.
BaldusCattus
Neo Member
This thread continues to deliver =) The more discussion I read about this game the more fondness I have for it.
Indeed, so much so that
(not really a spoiler, but tagged because of the quote). Just another example of the holistic quality of lore and worldbuilding in FF8.
Indeed, so much so that
the game's 'tagline' (Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec) is a combined anagram of "Succession of witches" and "Love"
ScherzoPrime
Member
I think as a narrative VIII has been so-so; a little bit weaker than FFVII, which already didn't have the greatest narrative to begin with (though the Sephiroth v. Cloud stuff, and Cloud rediscovering his identity--with Tifa's help--came together a lot better than I had thought). It's just too clunky with too many moving parts that sort of show up immediately before becoming plot relevant. I get that Ellone's powers and Ultimecia's Time Compression tie into the idea of Squall coming to terms with his past and stop fretting over the future, but that still doesn't excuse how these elements are just sort of dumped on the player with little notice.
I do think there is an understated contrast though between Laguna, who did nothing but live for the moment, even though it ended up losing him Raine, and Squall, who is too riddled by regret and insecurity to ever take advantage of anything, or in anyway open himself up to being hurt. That's probably a lot more relatable than the "Woe is me I'm a monster" of Zidane and Cloud.
I do think there is an understated contrast though between Laguna, who did nothing but live for the moment, even though it ended up losing him Raine, and Squall, who is too riddled by regret and insecurity to ever take advantage of anything, or in anyway open himself up to being hurt. That's probably a lot more relatable than the "Woe is me I'm a monster" of Zidane and Cloud.
ScherzoPrime
Member
As far as 'big' games? Might finish Persona 3, which I've been breaking from. Could do a LttP for that as well, but I'm like on the final month so there isn't too much left to it.
I will say as far as pacing of games go, I prefer FFVIII's to that of the Persona series. As neat of a concept of S. Links are, grinding through daily activities/dungeons at night just isn't the most engaging of activities, and gooood is Persona grind heavy. Getting back to FFVIII has made me appreciate the brisk pace the critical path of FF games move; I bet you could complete the story quest of FFVIII in about 20 or so hours.
All the FF games main quests are relatively short until maybe FFXII. I remember they are usually even shorter than the Tales games. Persona 3 and 4 are both some of the longest JRPGs ever made.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Hmm, so Edea basically doubled up on Sorceress Power from getting both some unnamed Sorceress's Power as a child and Ultimecia's power 13 years ago. Maybe her powers on the way to Esthar are the ones the first Sorceress gave her, which were then removed by Odine? Or perhaps I'm overthinking this.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Uh, does anyone else find Edea's advice to Rinoa kinda, you know, chauvinistic? "Yeah all the sorceresses that don't find dudes to protect them turn evil, so beter find a dude to shack up with".
Like it's just sorta, I dunno, bizarre for such a regressive message to be so casually thrown in there. I'm weird in that I'm all for fanservice, but messaging like this always just rubs me the wrong way.
Like it's just sorta, I dunno, bizarre for such a regressive message to be so casually thrown in there. I'm weird in that I'm all for fanservice, but messaging like this always just rubs me the wrong way.
I can't remember the exact quote, but isn't she just saying find somebody to love, and that partnership will stop you going evil? Does she specify it has to be a man or a husband? Couldn't it be anybody?
ScherzoPrime
Member
She says that finding a Knight to protect her will help her from turning evil; that Adel and Ultimecia didn't have knights and figuring that's probably why they turned evil. Just.... eggggh, that sort of dependency, even if its not intended to be meanspirited, just feels really outdated to me; the implication that women can't handle power on their own.
AppleSeason
Member
I fucking fucking hate Squall and Rinoa. On replays I was just mashing circle on the cutscenes while reading something else.
To this day, I still want a VIII-2 being a prequel with Laguna, Kiros and Ward.
To this day, I still want a VIII-2 being a prequel with Laguna, Kiros and Ward.
I guess so, but love, friendship and being able to depend on other people and trust them is a major theme of the game. And it's presented in positive way, normally dependancy means weakness, but here we are seeing it presented as it's own strength. That's as true for Squall as a man, as it is for Rinoa as a woman, it's about sharing the burden. Like Sam and Frodo from Lord of the Rings. I don't think it necessarily has to be a romantic relationship, it's about maintaining human emotions, and not building a fortresses of solitude (literally in this case but you will see that later). I think the context is important.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I always saw the model of "Sorceress + Sorceress' Knight" as being a very mechanical role dichotomy like "Presidents always have Vice Presidents".
I never thought to read it as actually being a statement about how wild magical women need some masculine protector.
Of course you have a point in interpreting it like this ... It's an interesting point, and I think the gender implication leaps to mind far more readily in 2016 than it did in 1999.
But I personally don't think it was ever more than a kind of fantasy heirarchy relationship, not to be thought of in terms of real world social dynamics implying that women need protecting. Even this piece of media from late 1990s Japan probably wasn't implying that. They just thought it would be another cool world building detail if witches tended to take on first officers. It's all in service of Seifer's fantasy in the plot, anyway.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I guess, but it's kinda hard to ignore the gendered implications of a Sorceress requiring a Knight to be 'whole'. It's not about camaraderie in the abstract, but playing into chivalrous notions of being 'protected'.
Like this is from the FF Wiki:
That strikes me as dependency, not interdependence.
Well this is the 3rd differing interpretation in a row. I like that about it. So we have dependancy, my version is team work and you have hierarchy. It's pretty cool I think.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
True. And there is much interpretation in this game.
Regardless of whether it's top-down or mutually beneficial, my main point was that they are formal roles. It's not that Sorceress' are typically weak females who tend to seek out male protectors who do what they cannot. It's that both "Sorceress" and "Sorceress Knight" are totally fantasy roles of people who symbiotically work together in VIII.
It's like Big Daddys and Little Sisters in Bioshock. You could read real world gender dynamics into their relationship... But I wouldn't emphasize that as primary. Mainly, they're just fantasy roles that work together.
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