ah yes, the good old punch kick dodge that I never thought had any good strategy at all
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LTTP FFVIII: The Aesthetic Fore-bearer to FFXV
- Thread starter ScherzoPrime
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ah yes, the good old punch kick dodge that I never thought had any good strategy at all
ScherzoPrime
Member
Yeah, everything is cinematic as fuck and it's awesome, again, how they composite gameplay over FMVs. But yeeeeeah the punching minigame is kind of bullshit, especially when the camera pulls back and you can no longer see the Galbadian's tells. Plus the imputs are sluggish as fuck and you can't cancel out of the wind up into a block.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Hahahah oh god does Seifer have like an Oedipal complex for Edea or something?
I also like that there's a lot of different dialogue that plays out organically in a lot of scenes depending on who you've got in your party. Getting some strong 'Disc One Final Dungeon' vibes from the Galbadian Garden, even though this is (I believe) the end of Disc Two.
Also, to touch on the story on a whole a little; I think like FFX this is very much a Bildungsroman, having the protagonist come of age and mature; whereas FFVII and FFIX more centrally have to do with Identity, more explicitly existential in IX.
I also like that there's a lot of different dialogue that plays out organically in a lot of scenes depending on who you've got in your party. Getting some strong 'Disc One Final Dungeon' vibes from the Galbadian Garden, even though this is (I believe) the end of Disc Two.
Also, to touch on the story on a whole a little; I think like FFX this is very much a Bildungsroman, having the protagonist come of age and mature; whereas FFVII and FFIX more centrally have to do with Identity, more explicitly existential in IX.
ScherzoPrime
Member
End of Disc 2 Thoughts
I feel like the characters have really grown on me throughout the Second act, and I've enjoyed the propulsive nature of the narrative so far. I've also grown to appreciate the sort of dichotomy between Squall and Seifer, how they're both different types of immaturity. I'm just concerned now about how well it segues from Edea being the Big Bad to Ultamecia, and how Adel will fit into that. Also wondering what more character development they'll do.
I feel like the characters have really grown on me throughout the Second act, and I've enjoyed the propulsive nature of the narrative so far. I've also grown to appreciate the sort of dichotomy between Squall and Seifer, how they're both different types of immaturity. I'm just concerned now about how well it segues from Edea being the Big Bad to Ultamecia, and how Adel will fit into that. Also wondering what more character development they'll do.
Seifers romantic dream is to become a gunblade-wielding Sorceress' Knight, because he saw that in a movie once and thought it was the coolest shit ever. This is the movie that Laguna does some stunt-work for during one of those sequence, so kinda blame Laguna on that one as well. It having to be Edea is pretty much just inevitable as she is the only Sorceress capable of any activity in particular era as Adell has been stuffed into a fridge. If he does have some Oedipal tendencies, I think that part would just be a bonus to him, not the main pull. I personally think he is just going a bit hardcore for the whole 'live out your dream' thing and it just ends up like:
Very much agreed. All of the main cast characters change quite a bit during the course of the game, all for the better.
A lot of people crap on the cast but I think most of the characters had their moments - it's just that Disc 3 onwards is strictly about Squall and Rinoa. But you have Squall trying to undo years and years worth of emotional trauma and learning to connect with others again, Laguna's constant wavering of responsibility versus what is right, Rinoa being naive and in way over her head and coming to terms with her role in the squad, Selphie having her brief stint where takes charge and does what she can to save her new friends, Zell getting torn to shreds in the first half of the game for his stupidity and then being the one responsibility for liberating his boyhood town and becoming the hero he always longed to be. The only ones who don't really get their own moment to shine are Quistis and Irvine, sadly, as I think the first of Disc 1 had a lot of potential as a character.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I'm stuck here right now.
Normal mobs are killing me easily, I never manage to get the equipment for weapon upgrades and still have the starter weapons, I can only win anything by GF spamming and I seem to be missing two GFs. These are the exact same problems I had when the game came out, but I somehow made it to the endgame back then.
Are you using the junction system?
If you can get life magic refine on siren you should be able to get curagas to junction to hp by refining tents.
waters refined from fish fins are relatively easy to get using Ice Water magic refine on shiva, water's relatively ok for strength.
Don't worry too much about weapons except for squall, they unlock better limit break finishers
speaking of which, if you stay at low health and skip your turn you can get limits very quickly, squall, zell, and irvine are best for this
Along with what was said below, Zell's Armegaddon Fist limit break, while cheap, can probably coast you throughout most of the entire game. I know Galbadia isn't a place you can leave, so if you are low on junctionable items, that might help you get through the Garden at least.
To add to this, don't read the Combat King (or whatever) that gives Zell move moves for his limit. If you use O+X and D-pad L->R in chains, you can EASILY output more damage than the "more powerful"/longer input moves and other Limits (even Lionheart!) pale in that damage output.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Some more random thoughts from playing some more:
- I love how half-hearted Raijin and Fujin's attempts to keep up with Seifer are. Initially they go and play Galbadian soldiers with him, but quickly realize this is all sorts of fucked up and can't really be assed to throw themselves behind Seifer's delusions anymore.
- Speaking of Seifer, how was he suddenly anointed the leader of Galbadia upon Edea's defeat? I know it says Ultamecia is behind him, but what form does she exactly have at this point? I do love how the Deling City Street is much less enthused about Seifer than Edea.
- Squall's sudden outburst of emotion over the comatose Rinoa came off a bit cheesy too me imo. It didn't really feel like something he'd really say, talking about missing her voice and all. I'd do it something more straightforward about how confused he is about her but just wants her to back.
- The Ultima Draw Point in Shumi village is practically cheating; Squall's attack is now head and shoulders above the rest because of it. Drawing Death's from the Tonberry's in Odin's Sanctuary also did wonders for boosting my health.
I think you'll find out more about this later and what actually happened when Edea was defeated if I remember right. Keep playing OP, I enjoy reading your posts. It's refreshing seeing what someone thinks playing this for the first time = )
Technically, Ultimecia was always the Big Bad. The Edea you've been fighting this whole time is Ultimecia possessing her.
vainglorious
Member
Yeah. OP will learn what happened towards the end of Disc 3. It's a big reveal.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I'm talking from a structural point of view; the info dump from Edea and Cid felt a little weird, though I guess the sort of point is who is the Big Bad at this point matters less to the plot (and Squall) than saving Rinoa for this portion of the game.
Also I do feel Squall's transition to openly caring about Rinoa coulda been handled more gracefully. I don't mind the intensity per se, I wish though that it played up more how confused and anxious he is, that he's still reeling and processing his emotions after she is yanked out from under him.
I agree that it could have been handled better, I'm not quite sure how though. Maybe they could have shown that he cared about her more before she fell into a coma, I know plenty find it jarring. Like how he had to essentially be bullied into rescuing her after she fell in the Garden battle (she must have killer upper body strength). If they had shown him at least wanting to prioritise her, it would have been better. It was an odd choice considering what comes after.
For some reason I never did find it jarring overall, I always had her in my party so had the scenes in Garden, it seemed pretty obvious to me. They did have little hints early on, things like her being the only person Squall shakes hands with, everyone else he turns away. Even dancing with her at the beginning singles her out from everyone else he meets.
I think they do show his anxious feelings quite a lot though, later on he is frankly distraught. You'll get to that part soon enough. Your actually playing through my favourite part from here.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Wait what? I go to Fisherman's Horizon to draw some Regens before Esthar, and now suddenly I've triggered a story sequence?
My issue isn't his intense feelings for Rinoa per se; it's how they're articulated. He should still deeply confused but blatantly regretful, in a way that show's he still hasn't fully processed what Rinoa means to him. Quasi-poetic stuff like "I want to hear your voice again!" just feels sort of out of character imo. Something more akin to "You can't leave me! I...I can't be alone again!" I feel would be more apropos, more blunt and raw-edged.
My issue isn't his intense feelings for Rinoa per se; it's how they're articulated. He should still deeply confused but blatantly regretful, in a way that show's he still hasn't fully processed what Rinoa means to him. Quasi-poetic stuff like "I want to hear your voice again!" just feels sort of out of character imo. Something more akin to "You can't leave me! I...I can't be alone again!" I feel would be more apropos, more blunt and raw-edged.
Yeah the railroad from FH is the only way the party knows to get to Esthar, or at least I think that's what my memory says
vainglorious
Member
Yeah. The Fisherman's Horizon was founded and built by engineers from Esthar. The U.S. translation refers to FH's leader as a mayor but in the Japanese script he is still referred to as the "Station Master". After Esthar was liberated from Adel and adopted an isolationist foreign policy, FH remains as the nation's only remnant that still interacts with the rest of the outside world. All roads to Esthar go through FH.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Hahaha, so much for FFXV aesthetics; Esthar is full on X/XIII now. I know the Aide says Esthar has advanced since the revolution, but man if they were anywhere near this advanced during the Sorceress War how did they not completely crush Galbadia?
Also why does Odine have a German accent? He looks like a Chinese Eunuch/Magistrate.
Also why does Odine have a German accent? He looks like a Chinese Eunuch/Magistrate.
I love Esthar so much, the reveal of the entrance is just fantastic. Now I am going by memory here, it's been a while. But I don't think Esthar was ever out to conquer Galbadia, they were going about another mission for the Sorceress, which included that dig site Laguna blundered into. You'll find out about that real soon.
Galbadia wasn't happy with them waltzing into their country like they owned the place and was resisting. To Esthar, Galbadia was almost irrelevant at the time. If certain things had happened as the Sorceress planned, they would have eventually crushed everyone. It makes Galbadia's ambition to become a superpower a bit pathetic really.
Dr Odine is a mystery of life, I have no explanation for him lol.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I'll take a moment to comment on the core relationship. It's interesting that it's sort of a role reversal of X's 'romance', it's Squall who is forced by 'fate' (which, sort of akin to Interstellar, turns out to be a fate of his own design, thanks Causal Time Loops!) to be burdened with an awful task. I also kind of like that Rinoa isn't 'special' in any plot relevant way, that she's just someone who becomes meaningful to Squall by her own character and ability...Although, isn't there a bit of an issue that Squall X Rinoa might be a little... incestuous?
I think Edea might be the longest I've played as a Guest Character in any FF. Sephiroth was a glorified cutscene in VII, Seymour was a single battle in X, and I think Beatrix was only one sequence in IX. I'm not sure how long Leo is in your party in VI, and I'm unsure how long Vossler and Larsa are playable, but I still think Edea might be the longest.
Also hahaha I only yesterday at work realized why Irvine lost his nerve to take the shot; he hadn't forgotten she was his foster mom.
I also find it amusing that all PS1 era FFs involve space in some way (FFIX's is a bit abstract but it's still there). I know FFIV involved space as well, but I find it funny that all PS1 ones involved it but none have since. Unless you consider Cocoon a 'Moon' of Gran Pulse ersumshit. Speaking of space, the Esthar Mass Driver/Railgun Space Center is so fucking cool.
Yeah my headcanon is that Galbadia took effective control of its continent under the pretense of uniting the world against Estharian Tyranny; once the war ended they still used the fear of the Sorceress (who the denizens of the Galbadian continent don't know has been shot into space) as a flimsy excuse for maintaining dominance of the continent.
Also my mind went to horrible places with all the talk of Esthar being Xenophobic and Isolationist. I'm now imagining Laguna with a 'Make Esthar Great Again' hat complaining about 'Crooked Adel' and getting chants of 'Lock Her Up'! I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
I think Edea might be the longest I've played as a Guest Character in any FF. Sephiroth was a glorified cutscene in VII, Seymour was a single battle in X, and I think Beatrix was only one sequence in IX. I'm not sure how long Leo is in your party in VI, and I'm unsure how long Vossler and Larsa are playable, but I still think Edea might be the longest.
Also hahaha I only yesterday at work realized why Irvine lost his nerve to take the shot; he hadn't forgotten she was his foster mom.
I also find it amusing that all PS1 era FFs involve space in some way (FFIX's is a bit abstract but it's still there). I know FFIV involved space as well, but I find it funny that all PS1 ones involved it but none have since. Unless you consider Cocoon a 'Moon' of Gran Pulse ersumshit. Speaking of space, the Esthar Mass Driver/Railgun Space Center is so fucking cool.
Yeah my headcanon is that Galbadia took effective control of its continent under the pretense of uniting the world against Estharian Tyranny; once the war ended they still used the fear of the Sorceress (who the denizens of the Galbadian continent don't know has been shot into space) as a flimsy excuse for maintaining dominance of the continent.
Also my mind went to horrible places with all the talk of Esthar being Xenophobic and Isolationist. I'm now imagining Laguna with a 'Make Esthar Great Again' hat complaining about 'Crooked Adel' and getting chants of 'Lock Her Up'! I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
How so??
You also explore a satellite orbiting the planet in the first FF, although it was stupidly changed to a generic sky castle in the remakes. There's also the Void in FFV. And of course, The Spirits Within entered production around the time of the PS1 installments.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Laguna had an affair with Rinoa's mom before he was deployed to Centra. I'm not saying it's 'certain' he's the father, bu the possibility is there, is what I'm saying.
Yeah, I know there was weird Sci Fi elements near the end of the original FF too. Weird that they'd edit that out seeing as Fantasy meets Sci Fi is a recurring theme throughout the whole series.
BassForever
Member
Worst PS1 era game, one of the worst in the mainline series. The plot is nonsensical, the characters are terrible, and gameplay is broke in 15 minutes. At least Triple Triad is a lot of fun and the game has one of the best OST in the series.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
ScherzoPrime
Member
Okay, there's no way Dance With The Balamb Fish playing as you arrive at the Space Station is not a reference to 2001 A Space Odyssesy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFOX93ar5GA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFOX93ar5GA
I think the theming implies that Rinoa's mother Julia was Laguna's lost love, and that squall and rinoa getting together was like the next generation fulfilling that like their parents couldn't.
Not entirely unheard of in romance plots
Yeah, if FFVIIR wants to just leave all the minigames for the Gold Saucer and leave them out of the main story, that would be 100% alright with me.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I mean, I think fleshing out some of them would be 'ok', but they have to be more judicious about it. I could see the Motorcycle and Snowboarding stuff filled out, less so shit like Fort Condor. Again, there just seems to be a 'throw everything against the wall and see what sticks' mentality, which while charming doesn't make for a cohesive package or create a good template to build upon without making a few meaningful incisions.
Awww thanks. I kinda don't know what I'm doing that's so engaging though; I'm just commenting on things as they come up.
lastflowers
Banned
This was my recent understanding (during a ten year later replay)
ScherzoPrime
Member
Pffft, Piet? Getting real obscure with your Star Wars references now, FFVIII.
I do like that the space station is a torus (again, like 2001), so it creates its own artificial gravity naturally.
I do like that the space station is a torus (again, like 2001), so it creates its own artificial gravity naturally.
I'm really wondering where this quote is from?
The picture is from Valvrave The Liberator, I think it was the final episode, or the one before that. The picture text describes that particular character and moment perfectly, but it has nothing to do with the series as such. I'm pretty sure 4chan or some similar meme-factory is responsible.
ScherzoPrime
Member
We interrupt your regularly scheduled Final Fantasy to bring you The Martian, starring Matt Damon as Squall. (Course, you could go Interstellar as well with all the 'Love is the only thing that can transcend Time and Space' Bull-honkey). The First-Person space rescue is cool though.
My only issue with the Lunar Cry is that it's more or less relegated to the third act; it should have a more apparent effect on the world than what had been displayed up until that point.
...wait, there just happened to be an Estharian Aerospaceship in the Lunar Cry that Squall and Rinoa were somehow fortunately close enough to get to? That's kind of pushing serendipity.
I dropped that show after the Psychopathic Idol Singer gleefully chooses to become a vampire pilot. Course, it wasn't particularly good from the get go as it showed it lacked the balls to stick to any of it's 'shocking' twists.
My only issue with the Lunar Cry is that it's more or less relegated to the third act; it should have a more apparent effect on the world than what had been displayed up until that point.
...wait, there just happened to be an Estharian Aerospaceship in the Lunar Cry that Squall and Rinoa were somehow fortunately close enough to get to? That's kind of pushing serendipity.
I dropped that show after the Psychopathic Idol Singer gleefully chooses to become a vampire pilot. Course, it wasn't particularly good from the get go as it showed it lacked the balls to stick to any of it's 'shocking' twists.
ScherzoPrime
Member
So the Protagonist's Love Interest is captured around the same time I get the Airship, and now I've got to swoop in and rescue her.... hmmm, where have I played that before....
Also now I'm a bit confused; Edea (under Ultamecia's influence) transferred her Sorceress powers to Rinoa, but Edea was clearly using Sorceress powers during her time with the power. Is it just... residual power ersumshit? And is Ellone's deal ever explained?
Also now I'm a bit confused; Edea (under Ultamecia's influence) transferred her Sorceress powers to Rinoa, but Edea was clearly using Sorceress powers during her time with the power. Is it just... residual power ersumshit? And is Ellone's deal ever explained?
Edeas powers were transferred over to Rinoa when they were removed from her in Esthar by Odine. They were hers, and only hers, up to that moment, whereupon they were immediately transferred over to Rinoa (the quite literal Succession of Witches which demands that there is always at least one Sorceress around as someone always has to inherit the power) whom Ultimecia then promptly possessed to gain access to her old digs, Adell. I don' remember if they every really explain her comatose state up until then, but her waking is definitely due to the combo of her sudden inheritance of power and thus becoming the obvious target for Ultimecias possession.
As for Ellone, her parents, the origins of her powers and such remain a mystery to the end.
Hahaha, it is safe to say that the series did stick to its twists later on. The amount of shit it wallows in, mainly due to and directly or indirectly caused by the MCs stubborn insistence that the Valvrave pilots are inhuman monsters, is staggering. He literally causes his own misery and drags a whole lot of people to their graves due to being a stupid, stubborn git. Man, Sunrise will never be able to replicate Code Geass, but they sure seem intent on trying.
Have they said when the last one was? I can't remember, I know that all the monsters in the world are there because of it. And Laguna and co stumbled into that dig, which was Esthar trying to dig up the lunatic pandora so they could cause a lunar cry and study it back in Adel time.
The Ragnorak thing you will see how it got there, whether it's a good enough reason is up to you. It's part of a bigger reveal that is just awesome so I give it a pass lol.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
According to the FFVIII Ultimania (a large part of which has never been translated, even by fans :-/ ), Ellone's power is of similar nature to that of Guardian Forces (they're both memory-related), but it still remains largely unexplained.
ScherzoPrime
Member
So is it like Ultamecia 'marked' Rinoa for succession, which was completed once Edea's powers were removed? Cause I thought Rinoa became the next Sorceress when Ultamecia marked her in Galbadia Garden.
And wait, Adel was possessed by Ultamecia too? So did her consciousness transfer to Adel once Rinoa broke the last seal?
They mention in the Space Station that it was over hundred years ago. I'm just a bit annoyed that Lunatic Pandora/Lunar Cry isn't as integrated into the lore ass the Sorceress stuff is. My guess would be it was a Centran experiment that went bad; it's a bit weird that Centran stuff isn't more important to the game.
Bolded is how I understood it, yes, as the Succession could theoretically just dump the powers on a completely random person if there is no-one willing or otherwise prepared to accept the powers. The Succession is a one-way deal with no residual powers or anything, so Rinoa became a Sorceress only when Edea finally lost the powers.
Ultimecia definitely used Rinoa only as a tool to free Adel from her Lagrange 0 Space-Fridge-Prison, and I've generally been under the impression that Ultimecia was behind Adells original reign of terror as well (Esthar was looking for Ellone even back then, among other things). I could totally be wrong about the latter though, but Adel was definitely Ultimecias goal at that point of the game as Edea had proven too weak, losing to the SeeDs as she did. For the past era Adel, Ultimecia as Adel would just make the most sense for her stated goals and deeds, like ensuring a Successor with a rather special set of powers.
What Ultimecia knows and doesn't know about the present day and events is a bit unclear as a person who can dive into and possess people in the past can get up to all kinds of fuckery and the amount of info about the present day events being passed on to the future is unknown. Even the whole SeeDs VS Sorceresses thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy as Ultimecia is hinted to have become evil due to major discrimination and persecution against "evil Sorceresses" in the future..... caused by her own actions in the past due to the time-travel shenanigans.
Edit.. Hmm, maybe I'm just suffering from faulty memory on some of this and the Succession did happen right there in Galbadia Garden at the end of disc 2. It would just make the most sense given that Edea still has magic abilities beyond the normal GF-given ones during the travels to Esthar, but then it would clash with other stuff like what Jennipeg mentions below. Bah, I'm clearly far overdue for a new playthrough of the game.
Rinoa became a sorceress in Galbadia Garden. I think succession is an involuntary thing, and can only happen if there is a suitable candidate. Edea was defeated and her powers transferred. It was after Rinoa became a sorceress that Ultimecia possessed her (when she spotted an opportunity in the space station).
The transfer of power put Rinoa into a coma, that's why Odin says 'so this is what happens' when he first sees Rinoa. Ultimecia made Rinoa break the seal because she sensed a more powerful sorceress. So yes Adel is now possessed (she wasn't when Laguna and co fought her).
Edea's attack I think is just her standard magic based attack like the other party members use. It's weird because she didn't know she had lost her powers, I can't remember what she says about it. If you return to Edea's house you can find her there.
Yeah the Centra lore is pretty fascinating, it's a lost civilisation. All of their discoveries and experiments have been kept secret from the world for a long time. Esthar is messing with ancient artifacts that they don't understand. That's what made them dangerous and partly led them to seal themselves away.
vainglorious
Member
Yeah. Edea uses para magic just like everyone else by using GF after she loses her powers in Galbadia. I like to think that Edea doesn't realize her powers are gone because she's extremely reserved and seeks to suppress her nature as a Sorceress. You'll notice that Edea's sense of dress is incredibly modest (the long ankle length black dress), Ultimecia is incredibly flamboyant and vain by comparison (the clothing and headdress that Ultimecia chooses to adorn Edea's body with when she is possessing her). Or maybe she withheld that information because she knew she could only get into Esthar if they recognized her as a sorceress? The game doesn't really do a great job concerning the details around this. :/
Edit -
No wait. She goes to Esthar to seek out Odine to suppress her powers so that Ultimecia will no longer be able to possess her and then Odine is like, "lol You're not a sorceress anymore". Yeah. Welp.
Edit -
No wait. She goes to Esthar to seek out Odine to suppress her powers so that Ultimecia will no longer be able to possess her and then Odine is like, "lol You're not a sorceress anymore". Yeah. Welp.
Ending spoilers:
Well Edea was already a sorceress before she recieves Ultimecia's sorceress powers in the end/past when Squall and Ultimecia is sent back to the orphanage. So she has like double sorceress powers? Maybe only the Ultimecia part got transferred to Rinoa and her own 'older' powers stayed with her and that's the powers she wanted to suppress.
Edit: Actually, I think Edea just wanted to be sure her powers were gone so that's why she went to Esthar to see Dr.Odine. Still though, regarding
Edea having double sorceress powers, does that mean Rinoa get double the power then?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
vainglorious
Member
I would think so.
I mean, the whole point of Ultimecia is that she is the last sorceress right (Ultimecia comes from Ultimate)? And she's as powerful as she is because she represents the lineage of Hyne and all sorceress power that existed before her. The most fascinating thing about this game is the time loop where at the end Ultimecia has yet to even be born, and she eventually becomes the world's de factor dictator where I'm pretty sure she is the last Sorceress. That's why I always found it incredibly intriguing that when time finally compresses you are forced into a battle royale of Sorceresses from different points in history and once you move through compressed time into the future you confront the ultimate and last Sorceress, Ultimecia who has Sorceress power times a bajillion lol.
Edit -
Shame Nomura never did a full artwork of that design. She's classy.
Yes! I will always regard Edea as Nomura's best design. Especially since his concept art for Edea (which he drew during production for FF7) was used as the launch pad for developing FF8.
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