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[Unison]

Never watched a JonTron video... Only knew his... distinctive... mug from gifs on GAF.

Was made aware of the controversy once it became relatively big news... was glad I wasn't a fan.

When I saw this thread at first, I resolved not to buy Yooka-Laylee, which I had intended to buy, if his voice was left in it.

Now that it's been removed, I'll buy the game.

Good job, Playtronic, on ensuring that I remained a customer.

 

[GonzoCR]

The fact that GG is so anti-GAF is one of the reasons I decided to create an account here. Really only says good things about this place.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

Hmm. This, I am actually not sure about.

Let's say there's a game you yourself kickstarted a while back. 2 weeks from now there's an update to it: surprise! The dev team thinks this whole situation is shitty and wants to help out poor ol' JonTron, or perhaps sees an opportunity to get some extra sales from an audience they really should not be courting.

They gave JonTron a voice in their game, it's recorded and it's going to be in the final product.

Should you be able to get a refund now that they're enabling a racist? But him being in the game was never part of the KS pitch. You'd still be getting what you backed for.

This is somewhat of an old post but I think it's worth replying too. In general no I wouldn't expect kickstarter backers to be refunded in this hypothetical either. A pre order would be a different story, I mentioned that before but as you said kickstarter doesnt really work in a way you can expect refunds unless there's a failure to deliver your 'reward' for backing (not producing a Wii U version is a valid reason for example).

It would impact people's opinion of the game and the company, I expect some people would be very disappointed but I think you'd have a lot of trouble getting your money back. Kickstarter is not a preorder, you're not always going to be able to pull out you're money no matter how disappointed you are with the final product.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

The fact that GG is so anti-GAF is one of the reasons I decided to create an account here. Really only says good things about this place.

Gaf isn't perfect (no forum ever will be) but it's a hell of a lot better than pretty much any other forum out there, definitely better than any other forum I've used. Makes discussion actually possible, rather than shitposting & brigading. The mods do irreplaceable work.

 

[liezryou]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

 

[Cipherr]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

People arent accustomed to this horrid shit they say online coming back to bite them IRL. They resent it, completely.

Its really really obvious.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

Yeah. Don't look for logic here.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

People arent accustomed to this horrid shit they say online coming back to bite them IRL. They resent it, completely.

Its really really obvious.

This is the essence of it. About time imo.

 

[MrHoot]

This Video explains where the Neogaf claim is coming from

https://youtu.be/sRNDnR9Za4M?t=192

It's your typical GamerGater "SJW Cucks are ruining Vidya games" nonsense.

Hahahaha, wait a second.

Isn't that InternetArtistocrat.

The same InternetAristocrat, who spearheaded a campaign against Dina, the mighty number 9 CM because she was a feminist and a "SJW", based on nothing but loose tweets and conjecture ? Who managed to have lots of people giving comcept shit because they didn't like someone's politics in the team even tho her politics (as inoffensive they were) had no influence on the team at all? (And incidentally she was let go a few months later but you won't see any single one of these fuckers say anything about that, funny how that works)

That guy can eat a bowl of lead

 

[Iva Demilcol]

This Video explains where the Neogaf claim is coming from

https://youtu.be/sRNDnR9Za4M?t=192

It's your typical GamerGater "SJW Cucks are ruining Vidya games" nonsense.

Oh, I remember that voice...

he used to have another channel, isn't it? What happened to his original channel? did YT took it down?

Edit: InternetAristocrat... yeah now I remember his username.

 

[grim-tales]

Wow...Destiny(the streamer that interviewed Jon Tron) disapproved Playtonic's move

https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyEncouragingSpindleSeemsGood

Wait, what?? I thought Destiny was meant to be the voice of reason speaking out against Jon's racism.

I can understand why Jon was removed TBH, Playtonic wouldnt want to associate with somebody who has white supremacist/racist views.

 

[Fury451]

This Video explains where the Neogaf claim is coming from

https://youtu.be/sRNDnR9Za4M?t=192

It's your typical GamerGater "SJW Cucks are ruining Vidya games" nonsense.

This guy is delusional.

He thinks developers actually listen to GAF.

Developers pulled JonTron because they don't agree with his statements and it's a horrible look to have your product associated with someone whose statements you don't support. Pretty straightforward. You can say what you want but you can't expect to always be consequence free from what you say.

 

[liezryou]

People arent accustomed to this horrid shit they say online coming back to bite them IRL. They resent it, completely.

Its really really obvious.

Yeah. Don't look for logic here.

Well in an era when the President of the United States can get away with being a huge racist and doing whatever he wants without any repercussions whatsoever...

 

[MrHoot]

This guy is delusional.

He thinks developers actually listen to GAF.

Developers pulled JonTron because they don't agree with his statements and it's a horrible look to have your product associated with someone whose statements you don't support. Pretty straightforward. You can say what you want but you can't expect to always be consequence free from what you say.

No but don't you see

Neogaf is only a handful of liberal voices, but also somehow the strongest influencer against developper. We have no power but also all the power, because some dudes on Neogaf were unhappy with Jontron.

Basically Neogaf is the now catch-all boogeyman like tumblr and reddit was before.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Disappointing and spineless response by Destiny. I wish he had doubled down on what he said, not Jon. I appreciate his effort exposing Jon (skillfully so, I'm not gonna lie), but I think this is the last I watched of him for the time being.

 

[Anticol]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

Most of those are either teenagers with no real life experience or adults who are stupid. Believing that free speech = saying any offensive and shitty thing you want without repercusion or being hold to it is the most naive and delusional thing.

You are free to say what you wanna say but buckle up and be rdy to face scrutiny and consecuences.

On a sort of related note: Where do Gamergate/Alt-right Youtubers find the time to do these 10-minute plus rants every week?

They never leave their basement.

 

[Stone Vagabond]

On a sort of related note: Where do Gamergate/Alt-right Youtubers find the time to do these 10-minute plus rants every week?

 

[MrHoot]

On a sort of related note: Where do Gamergate/Alt-right Youtubers find the time to do these 10-minute plus rants every week?

I mean, they don't do research ever and basically grab a few screencaps and rant over a microphone with some buzzwords for their followers so they can easily understand when to get angry. Doesn't take much effort

 

[Gator86]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

Gaze out upon the last two years of American politics and reconsider your question.

 

[FF Seraphim]

On a sort of related note: Where do Gamergate/Alt-right Youtubers find the time to do these 10-minute plus rants every week?

You are talking about the same group of people who spend hours, days, maybe even weeks harassing people on twitter for having a view they don't agree with. They will find time because they have nothing better to do...

 

[Gator86]

On a sort of related note: Where do Gamergate/Alt-right Youtubers find the time to do these 10-minute plus rants every week?

Plenty of time when you're a 30-year old unemployed dude living in your parents' basement stewing over how women are holding you back.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Wait, what?? I thought Destiny was meant to be the voice of reason speaking out against Jon's racism.

I can understand why Jon was removed TBH, Playtonic wouldnt want to associate with somebody who was white supremacist views.

I'm getting more of a feeling Destiny knew "debating" Jafari would be like shooting fish in a barrel and that he'd get plenty of views

 

[EatinOlives]

Are people really arguing that a company wanting to distance themselves from a racist is wrong?

It's "wrong" when you've convinced yourself an angry brigade of internet vigilantes "force's a company's hand" into disavowing ties with self-professed white supremacist. You know, because it's literally impossible for a company to come to that conclusion on their own, this can only be achieved by "pressure".

 

[Gauntlet]

Gaf isn't perfect (no forum ever will be) but it's a hell of a lot better than pretty much any other forum out there, definitely better than any other forum I've used. Makes discussion actually possible, rather than shitposting & brigading. The mods do irreplaceable work.

NeoGAF is a hellhole echo chamber that happens to have the virtue of mostly enforcing the bare minimum of basic human decency. Here we make sure people are considered subhuman for real meaningful reasons like what platform they game on and what framerates they're willing to tolerate.

 

[JP_]

Hahahaha, wait a second.

Isn't that InternetArtistocrat.

The same InternetAristocrat, who spearheaded a campaign against Dina, the mighty number 9 CM because she was a feminist and a "skeleton", based on nothing but loose tweets and conjecture ? Who managed to have lots of people giving comcept shit because they didn't like someone's politics in the team even tho her politics (as inoffensive they were) had no influence on the team at all? (And incidentally she was let go a few months later but you won't see any single one of these fuckers say anything about that, funny how that works)

That guy can eat a bowl of lead

He also basically started gamergate with the five guys video that was full of made up conspiracy bullshit.

 

[MrHoot]

NeoGAF is a hellhole echo chamber that happens to have the virtue of mostly enforcing the bare minimum of basic human decency. Here we make sure people are considered subhuman for real meaningful reasons like what platform they game on and what framerates they're willing to tolerate.

Don'tchu talk about these filthy Ouyasters, we drove them out for a reason dangit !

 

[Sblargh]

Destiny is more libertarian than liberal, y'all didn't fished that out of that debate because you are hardwired to believe libertarians are "inherently racist" as I read here once.

Right after the debate he said he was against going after Jon's livelihood. He is also a defender of free speech some people here hates so much out of the belief that the best way to hang a racist (or any other kind of irrational ideologue) is to let him talk, and in this instance he was right.

While Jon was monologuing on YouTube while people went "how dare him?" he was getting empowered. When someone took the time to debate him, he was exposed.

Destiny isn't backing down, he isn't being spineless, he is consistent with what he believes: that not turning these subjects into tabboo will shine a light on how pathetic these views are.

Free speech is one of the trickiest subjects in political philosophy and it worries me how this forum is rushing torwards an instance that the answer isn't public debate. That is not to say boycotting and stuff isn't also good measures. Not to say that Playtonic is censoring or anything.

But here we are, JonTron is an obvious racist. Destiny is obviously not, yet he didn't pasaed the purity test, so there is already people looking for ulterior motives and agendas.

 

[Fuchsdh]

This Video explains where the Neogaf claim is coming from

https://youtu.be/sRNDnR9Za4M?t=192

It's your typical GamerGater "SJW Cucks are ruining Vidya games" nonsense.

I love how there's a point in the video where he asks 'so what's the issue?' and then immediately launches into the "but now it's about ethics in video games!"

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Destiny is more libertarian than liberal, y'all didn't fished that out of that debate because you are hardwired to believe libertarians are "inherently racist" as I read here once.

Right after the debate he said he was against going after Jon's livelihood. He is also a defender of free speech some people here hates so much out of the belief that the best way to hang a racist (or any other kind of irrational ideologue) is to let him talk, and in this instance he was right.

While Jon was monologuing on YouTube while people went "how dare him?" he was getting empowered. When someone took the time to debate him, he was exposed.

Destiny isn't backing down, he isn't being spineless, he is consistent with what he believes: that not turning these subjects into tabboo will shine a light on how pathetic these views are.

Free speech is one of the trickiest subjects in political philosophy and it worries me how this forum is rushing torwards an instance that the answer isn't public debate. That is not to say boycotting and stuff isn't also good measures. Not to say that Playtonic is censoring or anything.

But here we are, JonTron is an obvious racist. Destiny is obviously not, yet he didn't pasaed the purity test, so there is already people looking for ulterior motives and agendas.

Maybe if libertarian defenders of free speech didn't only speak up in defense of hate speech while keeping mum elsewhere, the impression would change

 

[Sblargh]

Maybe if libertarian defenders of free speech didn't only speak up in defense of hate speech while keeping mum elsewhere, the impression would change

http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/public-school-bans-pro-diversity-trump

Hate speech is (for good reason) the tabboo of the day. There is a lot of hypocrisy around free speech, not to mention, again, that the subject itself is tricky. But to assume everyone who defends free speech is secretly a nazi will lead to insanity.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Wow...Destiny(the streamer that interviewed Jon Tron) disapproved Playtonic's move

https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyEncouragingSpindleSeemsGood

I very much disagree with him, but on the other hand, I guess I see where he's coming from. Destiny's laissez faire attitude toward the alt-right shits in the gaming community is what got Jon on the show and exposed him for the horribly inarticulate racist that he is. And there's no denying Playtonic removing Jon certainly gave his supporters another rallying point rather than just leaving them with Jon's unintelligent corpse after the debate.

But the reasons I disagree with him have all been stated in the thread. I don't know. I feel it's not healthy to out everyone that wants to keep these people talking as on the "other side." I've been watching a lot of his videos and debates after the Jon one got attention and he's more often than not on what I think is the right side of things.

 

[StoveOven]

Destiny is more libertarian than liberal, y'all didn't fished that out of that debate because you are hardwired to believe libertarians are "inherently racist" as I read here once.

Right after the debate he said he was against going after Jon's livelihood. He is also a defender of free speech some people here hates so much out of the belief that the best way to hang a racist (or any other kind of irrational ideologue) is to let him talk, and in this instance he was right.

While Jon was monologuing on YouTube while people went "how dare him?" he was getting empowered. When someone took the time to debate him, he was exposed.

Destiny isn't backing down, he isn't being spineless, he is consistent with what he believes: that not turning these subjects into tabboo will shine a light on how pathetic these views are.

Free speech is one of the trickiest subjects in political philosophy and it worries me how this forum is rushing torwards an instance that the answer isn't public debate. That is not to say boycotting and stuff isn't also good measures. Not to say that Playtonic is censoring or anything.

But here we are, JonTron is an obvious racist. Destiny is obviously not, yet he didn't pasaed the purity test, so there is already people looking for ulterior motives and agendas.

So, honest question here. He believes the best way to take down these views is to let people hang themselves with their own ropes. I'm not sure if I agree, but that's a fair enough viewpoint. But he also believes that Playtonic shouldn't take Jon out of the game.

This is where I start to get lost. Being taken out of the game seems like a basic repercussion for Jon's actions. "We don't like what you said and don't want to be associated with you" is basically what it boils down to. Shouldn't this be the desired result? Isn't this the outcome of the hanging? Destiny let him speak, and now Playtonic is responding to what he said pretty reasonably. If this isn't the result that Destiny desired, then what is?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Wow...Destiny(the streamer that interviewed Jon Tron) disapproved Playtonic's move

https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyEncouragingSpindleSeemsGood

I don't understand how Destiny could say this, as he just fucking debated this guy over this very concept.

 

[Nanashrew]

Destiny is more libertarian than liberal, y'all didn't fished that out of that debate because you are hardwired to believe libertarians are "inherently racist" as I read here once.

Right after the debate he said he was against going after Jon's livelihood. He is also a defender of free speech some people here hates so much out of the belief that the best way to hang a racist (or any other kind of irrational ideologue) is to let him talk, and in this instance he was right.

While Jon was monologuing on YouTube while people went "how dare him?" he was getting empowered. When someone took the time to debate him, he was exposed.

Destiny isn't backing down, he isn't being spineless, he is consistent with what he believes: that not turning these subjects into tabboo will shine a light on how pathetic these views are.

Free speech is one of the trickiest subjects in political philosophy and it worries me how this forum is rushing torwards an instance that the answer isn't public debate. That is not to say boycotting and stuff isn't also good measures. Not to say that Playtonic is censoring or anything.

But here we are, JonTron is an obvious racist. Destiny is obviously not, yet he didn't pasaed the purity test, so there is already people looking for ulterior motives and agendas.

I don't do the purity test. Destiny may have those feelings on how we shouldn't mess with his livelihood but I do disagree with some of that. Many have been fired over less than what JonTron has said due to discrimination laws in the work place. And if a company does not want to be associated with a harmful person like JonTron, they shouldn't have to.

There was also no organized effort to ruin his livelihood either.

I'm having a debate right now with a few people and nothing is working. They are defending JonTron's racism and as the conversation turned to Jon's time on Sargon's video, I learned that the people I'm debating are avid watchers of Sargon, making it impossible to even talk facts with. To them I am deflecting, I am an SJW, part of SJW group think policing others thoughts. They think I use Hitler's name in vain as if I bring it up because "Hitler is something you say because you don't like it" when I was discussing how people are describing the AfD party in Germany and it being like a new nazi political party because the AfD was discussed in Sargon's video and they were all hoping for them to be elected in the video. They want all non-whites out of the country and some within the party believe that refugees should be shot on sight by the German police. Most of it is going nowhere though and side with JonTron, and especially Sargon of Akkad and say I know nothing about Sargon of Akkad.

This debate I was in has lasted since last night, and started up again around 2pm central, it's now 10pm and still seems to be going.

I'm about ready to just stop debating because it is pointless and going nowhere.

 

[Wallach]

http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/public-school-bans-pro-diversity-trump

Hate speech is (for good reason) the tabboo of the day. There is a lot of hypocrisy around free speech, not to mention, again, that the subject itself is tricky. But to assume everyone who defends free speech is secretly a nazi will lead to insanity.

This current topic has nothing to do with free speech. Nobody in this situation has been prevented from exercising their rights.

If you're against what Playtronic is doing here, you're actually more of an enemy of free speech and frankly basic freedom than you are for it. Playtronic has rights. Respect them.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Destiny is more libertarian than liberal, y'all didn't fished that out of that debate because you are hardwired to believe libertarians are "inherently racist" as I read here once.

Right after the debate he said he was against going after Jon's livelihood. He is also a defender of free speech some people here hates so much out of the belief that the best way to hang a racist (or any other kind of irrational ideologue) is to let him talk, and in this instance he was right.

While Jon was monologuing on YouTube while people went "how dare him?" he was getting empowered. When someone took the time to debate him, he was exposed.

Destiny isn't backing down, he isn't being spineless, he is consistent with what he believes: that not turning these subjects into tabboo will shine a light on how pathetic these views are.

Free speech is one of the trickiest subjects in political philosophy and it worries me how this forum is rushing torwards an instance that the answer isn't public debate. That is not to say boycotting and stuff isn't also good measures. Not to say that Playtonic is censoring or anything.

But here we are, JonTron is an obvious racist. Destiny is obviously not, yet he didn't pasaed the purity test, so there is already people looking for ulterior motives and agendas.

Yes JonTron's racism was exposed but he didn't change his mind, in fact he double downed , and he hasn't been rendered less popular either... In fact that only time anything happened to him was getting dropped from this game...

So what did Destiny achieve other than evidence used to convince these Devs to take him out of the game?

Debate with no consequence is basically useless, debate with no consequence just means you get to be even more openly racist.

An if he;s libertarian he should be in support of private company deciding for themselves that they don't want to associate with a racist not arguing that JonTron shouldn't suffer any repercussions for being an open racist... free speech doesn't mean say what you want and nothing will ever happen to you.

 

[APF]

Everyone who was paying attention already knew Jon was racist, they just weren't aware of how poorly he could articulate his racism. The debate as a debate was pointless and neither side came out illuminated in any way; it was only useful as a catalyst for people to voice their displeasure at Jon and disassociate themselves from him. Or in the case of Boogie and TB, an opportunity to wax middle-ground on transparent racism and white supremacy while saving their actual criticism for the real enemy: the horrible bastards who dared report on it.

 

[shawnbuddy]

If GAF did do it, we should be proud. Good job, GAF.

 

[Sblargh]

I think Playtonic is right precisely from a free market perspective. I would have done the same because fuck having my company's image being tarnished by one little shit. I also love Neogaf's moderation because it creates a healthy enviroment for minorities to be part of the conversation.
But
A forum is a closed system, society isn't. You ban someone from neogaf, they are out. You fire someone from a job, they are out.
You can't exclude people from society outside of sending them to jail (and even then you risk the person writing an influential book from the inside).

You can't block hate speech from society, it isn't realistic. I mean, you can't stop drugs from traveling through countries and those are material objects. If you could moderate society like you do Neogaf without turning it into (even more of) a Police state, it would be great.

Right now all we are doing is turning illiterate racists into counterculture.
-
I will stop talking on behalf of Destiny, my point is:
As a company, Playtonic is right, as a society breeding this enviroment of forbidden topics, we are creating giving up liberalism greatest asset, which is rationality in the face of hatred.

Also, don't debate people to convert them, too many psychological roadblocks prevent that. You debate to plant seeds.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Wow...Destiny(the streamer that interviewed Jon Tron) disapproved Playtonic's move

https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyEncouragingSpindleSeemsGood

"Divisiness from both sides"

Not the "both sides" argument...not that one again...

 

[Nanashrew]

I mean, social media can also be someone's downfall. Some have been fired over a racist remark over Facebook and Twitter. It's not a new thing. Essentially, JonTron was fired from his voice role on Yooka-Laylee. I'm not sure why it's controversial.

It's also not like there wasn't discussion about JonTron before like his thoughts on women during the women's march. He's also been going on Sargon videos a lot lately.

 

[BY2K]

Hell, I got a shot at my current job because someone said something so dumb on social media it got covered in the news and our boss had to make a statement.

 

[Cipherr]

Maybe if libertarian defenders of free speech didn't only speak up in defense of hate speech while keeping mum elsewhere, the impression would change

This. Go take your boner for GAFs supposed suppression of Freedom of Speech and employ it somewhere like The_Donald or 4chan where it can be of some genuine use to humanity; instead of finding the one corner of the gaming forum world that's actually a bit liberal and wagging your finger at it. If you really cared about FOS that much you certainly wouldnt be HERE of all places attempting to plant your flag.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I think Playtonic is right precisely from a free market perspective. I would have done the same because fuck having my company's image being tarnished by one little shit. I also love Neogaf's moderation because it creates a healthy enviroment for minorities to be part of the conversation.
But
A forum is a closed system, society isn't. You ban someone from neogaf, they are out. You fire someone from a job, they are out.
You can't exclude people from society outside of sending them to jail (and even then you risk the person writing an influential book from the inside).

You can't block hate speech from society, it isn't realistic. I mean, you can't stop drugs from traveling through countries and those are material objects. If you could moderate society like you do Neogaf without turning it into (even more of) a Police state, it would be great.

Right now all we are doing is turning illiterate racists into counterculture.
-
I will stop talking on behalf of Destiny, my point is:
As a company, Playtonic is right, as a society breeding this enviroment of forbidden topics, we are creating giving up liberalism greatest asset, which is rationality in the face of hatred.

Also, don't debate people to convert them, too many psychological roadblocks prevent that. You debate to plant seeds.

No one is blocking JonTron opinions, he's free to make them, he's not free to walk over their opinions without consequences. Be on a forum, be on a social platform, your opinions are going to have a consequence. If JonTron were defending human rights or women equality and then he was fired from YL for that, we could have a problem, but as society we agreed (well more or less) that equality is good and racism and xenophobia is bad.

So when JT exposes his extreme racist views, with vile, deshumanizing ideals made up of straight up lies and society reacts to it, is not a bad thing. And is not a bad thing he faces consequences for it.

And racism is not up to debate.

 

[Cipherr]

And racism is not up to debate.

And this too. For the love of fucking god this.

There is no debate with Racism. Stop trying to force it.

 

[Wallach]

This. Go take your boner for GAFs supposed suppression of Freedom of Speech and employ it somewhere like The_Donald or 4chan where it can be of some genuine use to humanity; instead of finding the one corner of the gaming forum world that's actually a bit liberal and wagging your finger at it. If you really cared about FOS that much you certainly wouldnt be HERE of all places attempting to plant your flag.

Well, no, don't take it to T_D, that would be a waste of time. They are staunch enemies of even the slightest amount of dissent or voiced opinion that isn't 100% lockstep. T_D is in a constant state of user banning and comment scrubbing.

 

[Makai]

"Divisiness from both sides"

Not the "both sides" argument...not that one again...

He said divisiveness between both sides.

 

[Pathfinder]

Hell, I got a shot at my current job because someone said something so dumb on social media it got covered in the news and our boss had to make a statement.

Social media is oftentimes it's own form of natural selection.

 

[RockmanBN]

Has anyone apart of A Hat in Time said anything related to Jontron? He does voice a character in the game.

 

[APF]

There's nothing irrational about asking a company if they support the white nationalists they hired, or asking platforms like Twitter or YouTube to have greater enforcement against hate speech. If YouTube actually gave a fuck about this issue we wouldn't have to be worried about millions of kids being indoctrinated into crypto-fascist ideologies while watching Minecraft videos of all things. Let's get to that part first, then we can have the conversation about whether it's better to boo or argue with the strange guy with the iron cross necklace when he picks up a bullhorn outside the local state fair.