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[Roberto Larcos]

The death penalty coming back wouldn't solve any problems.

It would also lead to expulsion from the Council of Europe.

Edit: Well not expulsion, but it'd be a problem.

Ejection, expulsion - you're actually correct.

However, the protection provided by the HRA is of a different order to that enjoyed by fundamental common law rights because it gives effect to an international treaty with international enforcement mechanisms. The Convention creates international obligations—to secure to everyone the rights under the Convention (art.1) and to abide by the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights (art.46)—as well as domestic obligations; common law rights only give rise to domestic obligations. A government that wished to disregard fundamental Convention rights would come under pressure from the international community to comply and could, eventually, be forced to withdraw from the Convention and could be ejected from membership of the Council of Europe under art.8 of the Statute of the Council of Europe. That might also threaten its membership of the European Union (if the United Kingdom were still a member).

E.H.R.L.R. 2016, 4 at 376

 

[PdotMichael]

It's objective in the general sense, sure, but perceived subjective at least to the extent of the person judging it and the intent behind it.

Leave.EU is clearly racist motivated.

It's not a hill worth to die on.

 

[Muffin1611]

Leave.EU is clearly racist motivated.

It's not a hill worth to die on.

...That's exactly what I'm arguing though?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Racism is a clearly defined term. There is no subjective aspect about that term.

The definition of racism is objective, but the actions people group under it and whether they find it racist or not it totally subjective and also changes over time. It's not a static thing. It also depends on history. Someone calling me a slur for being white has a totally different impact the calling a black person, Jewish person, Chinese person, etc something like that.

 

[PdotMichael]

...That's exactly what I'm arguing though?

I didn't say you are wrong.

The definition of racism is objective, but the actions people group under it and whether they find it racist or not it totally subjective and also changes over time. It's not a static thing.

Racism isn't like a dish which flavour you can like or not.

Either you are able to find arguments why something is racist or you can't (or the other way). Your first impression or anything else about something isn't worth anything.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Racism isn't like a dish which flavour you can like or not.

Either you are able to find arguments why something is racist or you can't (or the other way). Your first impression or anything else about something isn't worth anything.

Those arguments you can find will be different based on the situation and group. Mocking white people for certain stereotypes is different then doing that for black people, based on history and how it has been used for example.

Putting a noose next to a black person has a certain history associated with it. Maybe not even specific for a British context, but in a global world those things overlap from region to region now.

 

[PdotMichael]

Those arguments you can find will be different based on the situation and group. Mocking white people for certain stereotypes is different then doing that for black people, based on history and how it has been used for example.

And why shouldn't you bw able to write down arguments in regard to different social power dynamics?

There is no need for "feelings" in such discussions, in fact it's one of the most toxic things in our modern internet "outrage" times. People just can't stay rational anymore.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And why shouldn't you bw able to write down arguments in regard to different social power dynamics?

There is no need for "feelings" in such discussions, in fact it's one of the most toxic things in our modern internet "outrage" times. People just can't stay rational anymore.

But you saying: you should have arguments, is you admitting that racism is subjective and not objective. You might not like my arguments, I might not think yours are good.

My point is: what might be racist towards one person, might not be perceived as such to another, thus making a lot of cases of racism certainly an object for discussion and subjectivity.

You say that the "outrage" times are toxic. Others might argue it is about time these things got the attention they are getting now. Personally I am somewhere in the middle of the two. People are quick to jump to conclusions sometimes, but certain things we see spreading quickly through social media are part of a discussion that needs to take place. It's just that not all of it applies to all people and countries equally, but the internet being global we do all see it, and thus think everyone is outraged all the time, while that is far from the truth.

Anyway, this might be a bit to off-topic for the thread so I don't think it is that productive to have a long argument about it.

 

[*Splinter]

Want to appeal to sympathy for the unemployed? Use white people.

Want to invite outrage against prisoners to drum up support for harsher punishments? Use a black guy.

Of course it's racist.

This has nothing to do with the US though

And this is the most mind numbingly pointless objection to the discussion. What a fucking asinine point to make, did this seriously concern you?

 

[Funky Papa]

Leave.eu is utter trash, but please let's get back on topic.

 

[Kyougar]

then who defines what is considered racism or racial slur?

The society (majority) who uses it, or the (minority) party who is the recipient?

or is it the intent and pronunciation of the speaker?
The word "negro" or "neger" in german is considered racist now, but before 1970 it was considered a neutral word. In the dutch language, "neger" is even considered less racist than the dutch word for "black"
"black" also falls out of fashion, or rather gets considered more and more racist. the Politic correct word in german is now "Schwarzafrikaner" or "blackafrican" in english. some comedians take it to a whole new level and proposing "starkpigmentierter" ("heavypigmented") as the new PC form when "schwarzafrikaner" is considered racist.

Another case in point: the german everyday word for the Czech Republic (Tschechische Republik) is "Tschechei" But this word was used by the nazis and is considered racist even if it was used before between 1918 and 1938 for the czech part of chechoslowakia. We should use "Tschechien". A word that was never in great use befire 1992. And the czech people dont consider "tschechei" racist. I was oblivious for 25 years that it was considered racist by the government. Nobody in czech (the three vacations I was there) told me I was a racist.

What do I want to tell with all of this? Well, in most cases the race who is being badmouthed never gets asked what they consider racist.
Maybe we should consider the opinion of them in regards to racial slurs more.

 

[PdotMichael]

But you saying: you should have arguments, is you admitting that racism is subjective and not objective. You might not like my arguments, I might not think yours are good.

You will not find any arguments which would define LEAVE.EU trash as not racist.

So we don't need to discuss any fictional what if scenarios.

 

[User 73706]

damn y'all will fight tooth and nail to combat SJW bogeymen in the name of ~*~rational discourse~*~™

 

[RedSparrows]

Urghhhhhh.

So much wrong.

 

[PdotMichael]

damn y'all will fight tooth and nail to combat SJW bogeymen in the name of ~*~rational discourse~*~™

I didn't follow the conversation but I will post anyway.

Urghhhhhh.

So much wrong.

Makes the we aren't racist nonsense even more absurd.

 

[Funky Papa]

Getting back on track.

Brussels mulls excluding UK from updates on trade talks

The EU is considering shutting the U.K. out of sensitive briefings on its trade policy, following warnings that Britain will become a competitor for striking trade deals post-Brexit.

...

On Thursday, the EU finished preparations for trade negotiations with Australia — the same country with which the U.K. is launching preliminary talks. London also wants to engage with other EU negotiation partners including India, New Zealand or the Philippines.

A U.K. government spokeswoman told the FT that “the U.K. remains a member of the EU with all the rights and obligations that entails and we will continue to play our full role.”

Facebook status: it's complicated.

 

[Joni]

And this is the most mind numbingly pointless objection to the discussion. What a fucking asinine point to make, did this seriously concern you?

They want to stop foreign aid so they can focus on punishing these poor people again.

 

[daviyoung]

If you lot have a problem with my posts about racism itt you can PM me.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It won't cost £5 for the death penalty it will be just like the US where a lot of money goes on lawyers etc. Sounds like another "NHS" poster.

 

[Lucreto]

It won't cost £5 for the death penalty it will be just like the US where a lot of money goes on lawyers etc. Sounds like another "NHS" poster.

Also the US has to use alternative ways of providing the death penalty as the chemicals used in the lethal injection are made in Europe and they are restricting the purchase of them.

 

[FlammableD]

or we could not kill people

 

[chadskin]

The United Kingdom should hold a second referendum on whether to stay in the EU once the conditions of Brexit are clear, according to a senior official from Germany’s Social Democrats (SPD).

“When the referendum was held, nobody really knew what it would be about — not the British people, not even the political class,” Katarina Barley, the SPD’s general secretary and one one of its highest-ranking leaders said in an interview.

“A lot of people wrongfully thought that Britain could get a deal like Switzerland or Norway without the inconveniences, without accepting the rulings of the European Court of Justice, without free movement of labor,” Barley said, “Now they know that this isn’t the case … and they should be asked [to vote again] on this.”

“The intention of the May government is to say ‘either we get a very good deal, or it’s the fault of the European Union because they want to punish us,’” Barley said, “Which, first of all, isn’t true. The EU and the member states were always completely clear about what a Brexit would mean. The only ones who weren’t clear about it were [May’s] Tories.”

http://www.politico.eu/article/german-spd-boss-let-uk-have-a-second-brexit-referendum/

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Wonder if people will stand by their Brexit vote once automation hits the low skilled especially hard. Maybe they'll look back at EU membership with a new nostalgia because at least jobs were available when there weren't self driving cars around. The real change coupled with even bigger problems are down the road. And I don't see the Conservatives rising to the challenge and being innovative by looking at UBI.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Wonder if people will stand by their Brexit vote once automation hits the low skilled especially hard. Maybe they'll look back at EU membership with a new nostalgia because at least jobs were available when there weren't self driving cars around. The real change coupled with even bigger problems are down the road. And I don't see the Conservatives rising to the challenge and being innovative by looking at UBI.

We'll find new scapegoats, or just re-use old ones. Maybe the poor, for having too many kids. Immigrants, of course - even if they are required. Any employers that dare to use more efficient machines over people. Anyone but the government.

I mean, it's worked wonders so far.

 

[Audioboxer]

Brexit brings out the worst in... The Tory party

Ken MacBrayne posted a series of public comments about Nicola Sturgeon on his Facebook page.

The 72-year-old described the SNP leader as a "stupid little cretin" and a "silly wee cow".

He also asked: "Why can't someone stick a cattle prod up her nether region?"

In one Facebook post, MacBrayne said: "It would please me no end if someone stuck a golf ball in Nicola Sturgeon's mouth, tape it up and stick a bag over her head."

In addition to the posts about the First Minister, MacBrayne's Facebook also contains a number of posts shared from the far-right group Britain First.

One post includes a warning of a forthcoming religious war in the UK and Europe.

A Conservative spokesman said: "These comments are totally unacceptable and the party have informed the candidate that he shall be receiving no further support for his campaign.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1385676-tory-suspended-for-unacceptable-remarks-about-sturgeon/

That's one way to get yourself suspended.

 

[tuxfool]

One post includes a warning of a forthcoming religious war in the UK and Europe.

Wot?

 

[D4Danger]

Wot?

72-year-old

 

[RedSparrows]

Wot?

Clash of civilisation demographic-obsessed Knights Templar ahistorical conspiratorial idiocy. Standard 'Muzzies are coming, Gates of Vienna, Turks Turks! Us Christian soldiers (because white, not because Christian) unite!'

 

[CyclopsRock]

If they carry on doing well and are British businesses then maybe. Otherwise current business may move their operations and new businesses may or may not take their place. If they're foreign businesses they might find it more effective to bring in their own talent. And our consumer driven market may find it highly agreeable to bring in rich foreign shoppers. Regardless, your point relies on upholding the status quo which is no way to grow the economy especially now we're out of there.

Sorry, I only just saw this but I basically don't understand any of what you're saying. My point was that turning the UK into a tax haven isn't going to suddenly destroy all the decent businesses that operate here now, providing high quality jobs. I don't understand how your reply invalidates what I'm saying at all.

 

[Theonik]

Wot?

Deus Vult!

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Deus Vult!

Sometimes I'm really glad that the older generation often isn't computer literate enough to play CK2.

 

[Theonik]

Sometimes I'm really glad that the older generation often isn't computer literate enough to play CK2.

I don't think that's necessarily a good though to be honest. That way they'd deal with these fantasies better.

 

[Beefy]

Some UKIP dude defending bestiality

@JimWaterson
People say the quality of political debate on Twitter is in decline but I've got a former UKIP candidate in my mentions defending bestialty. https://t.co/ONI4cMqhYm

 

[TimmmV]

UK denies residency to London-born children of Dutch-Spanish couple

A Dutch and Spanish couple who have lived in Britain all their adult lives have told of their “devastation” after the Home Office refused their post-referendum application to have their two London-born children recognised as permanent residents of the country.

Jan-Dinant Schreuder and Monica Obiols, both 49, found themselves in a “bureaucratic nightmare” when they were told their 15-year-old son and 12-year-old daughter had to provide more evidence that they lived permanently with their parents.

...

The Home Office has now issued Schreuder with an ILR card and Obiols with a PR card. However, to the family’s horror, the Home Office sent separate notices to the two children notifying them that their applications for PR had been refused.

“You have not provided evidence that you have resided in the United Kingdom in accordance with those Regulations [European Economic Area immigration rules] for a continuous period of 5 years,” said the letter, signed on behalf of the secretary of state, Amber Rudd.

The home office really don't seem prepared for this whatsoever.

 

[DarthMasta]

Some UKIP dude defending bestiality

@JimWaterson
People say the quality of political debate on Twitter is in decline but I've got a former UKIP candidate in my mentions defending bestialty. https://t.co/ONI4cMqhYm

Taking into account UKIP's recent work, for when should we expect legalized bestiality?

Also, from my time watching British comedy shows, I assume Wales will vote for it?

 

[Muffin1611]

Some UKIP dude defending bestiality

@JimWaterson
People say the quality of political debate on Twitter is in decline but I've got a former UKIP candidate in my mentions defending bestialty. https://t.co/ONI4cMqhYm

So this is the level of British political discourse now, huh

 

[daviyoung]

If we eat it why can't we fuck it?

 

[tuxfool]

If we eat it why can't we fuck it?

If we take such transactional logic into account then if we fuck things why can't we eat them?

 

[Muffin1611]

If we take such transactional logic into account then if we fuck things why can't we eat them?

Right? We have to ask the really important questions here.

 

[CyclopsRock]

UK denies residency to London-born children of Dutch-Spanish couple



The home office really don't seem prepared for this whatsoever.

"This"? We're still members of the EU at the moment. Can't they just provide the requisite evidence? I don't really see what alternative course of action could be taken.

 

[War Peaceman]

I don't think the Home Office is ever prepared for anything, ever.

 

[TimmmV]

"This"? We're still members of the EU at the moment. Can't they just provide the requisite evidence? I don't really see what alternative course of action could be taken.

Did you read the article? It says that among the documents they provided for the children were their British birth certificates, they were also happy to give residency to their two parents. The end of the article also has the opinion of an immigration lawyer that says the children are probably British citizens anyway

And yes, "this" referred to Brexit, the thread topic.

 

[Jezbollah]

And yes, "this" referred to Brexit, the thread topic.

That is still irrelevant. We remain in the EU and follow it's regulations and residency criteria until we leave.

There is clearly something fishy going on here, given official guidelines for this situation are:

Children born in UK

Completed MN1 application form including two referees
Proof one parent is either is British or has indefinite leave to remain
Full UK Birth certificate showing both parents names
Parent's passports
Child's passport(s) if they have one
Home Office fees (depending on the type of application)

 

[TimmmV]

That is still irrelevant. We remain in the EU and follow it's regulations and residency criteria until we leave.

There is clearly something fishy going on here, given official guidelines for this situation are:

Children born in UK

Completed MN1 application form including two referees
Proof one parent is either is British or has indefinite leave to remain
Full UK Birth certificate showing both parents names
Parent’s passports
Child’s passport(s) if they have one
Home Office fees (depending on the type of application)

Thats the point though. This is just another example showing that the Home Office aren't capable of following those rules when it comes to EU residents

 

[Xando]

Britain set to lose EU ‘crown jewels’ of banking and medicine agencies

The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

Not suprising but the EU is moving quick.

Also "humiliation"? What did people expect.

 

[tuxfool]

Britain set to lose EU ‘crown jewels’ of banking and medicine agencies



Not suprising but the EU is moving quick.

Also "humiliation"? What did people expect.

Senior EU sources claimed that Britain’s aggressive approach to the talks, including threats of becoming a low-tax, low-regulation state unless it was given a good deal, had backfired. “However realistic the threats were, or not, they were noticed,” one senior EU source said. “The future prosperity of the single market was challenged. That had an impact – it pushed people together.”

Another senior diplomat said initial sympathy with Britain had fallen away in many capitals, due to the approach of Theresa May’s government. “Of course, we want to protect trade with Britain, but maintaining the single market, keeping trade flowing there, is the priority, and so we will work through [the EU’s chief negotiator] Michel Barnier,” the source said. “Britain used to be pragmatic. That doesn’t seem to be the case any more, and we need to protect our interests.”

heh.

No shit.

 

[Halph n Halph]

A tax haven on the EU border is the most likely outcome . I don't see that the UK government has any other option tbh.
The decision to leave the EU is going to hurt the younger generation a lot , but hopefully in a couple of decades things will rebalance.

 

[Theonik]

A tax heaven of 65M is probably a pretty suicidal thing to do. I pray for the UK's quality of life.

 

[kiri]

Can I just say that in regards to May's statement today of the UK coming together....fuck that :/

 

[sammex]

May - ”This year, after a period of intense debate over the right future for our country, there is a sense that people are coming together and uniting behind the opportunities that lie ahead. For at heart, this country is one great union of people and nations with a proud history and a bright future. And as we face the opportunities ahead – the opportunities that stem from our decision to leave the EU, and embrace the world – our shared interests, our shared ambitions and, above all, our shared values can and must bring us together."

Why even bother with this bollocks?