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18 years later, and Persona 2 remains the most progressive JRPG about homosexuality.

cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
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This is Tatsuya Suou.

persona2_innocent_conceptart_1UA08.jpg

(Tatsu for short. Likes: motorcycles, sound effects, being left alone.)

Tatsuya has issues. Apart from a psychopathic cult trying to conquer Sumaru City, a crazed man wearing a mask trying to kill him and all his friends, and an army of mecha Nazis trying to unearth an ancient city and rule the world, that is.

Relationship issues in particular.

At one point in the game, Tatsuya, lucky him, gets to decide who his bestie is.

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persona2-lisa.png

Lisa 'Ginko' Silverman, a clingy American/Japanese transfer student, also the most popular girl in school. Kind of a stalker. Outcome: Relationship

persona2-eikichi.png

Eikichi 'Michel' Mishina, leader of the a gang of punks from Kasugayama High, known for pantsing gang leaders after beating the hell out of them. Outcome: Friendship

persona2-maya1.png

Maya Amano, editor of 'Coolest' Magazine, seen as a big sister to the group. Is... flattered by the notion of Tatsuya showing an interest in her, even if it is kind of wrong on many levels. Outcome: Relationship!?

And then there's Jun.

persona2-jun.png

Jun Kurosu, without question Tatsuya's best friend. The game makes it pretty clear that Jun has feelings for Tatsuya that go beyond friendship.

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They each exchanged keepsakes as children, and each has kept it ever since.

So Tatsuya does, in fact, have the option of returning his affections.

Even the drama CDs treat this as canon, as do most of the writers.

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So what happens if you choose Jun?...

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No teasing, no homophobia, no jokes at his expense. The party just rolls with it, and the story goes on.

I think the rest of the genre, ESPECIALLY Persona, could do with taking some notes, don't you?

Other examples welcome.
 
L

Lights and Waves

Member
Persona being progressive about homosexuality...lmao. Maybe back then, sis.

The most progressive JRPG about homosexuality is FFXIII's trilogy, and that ain't saying much.
 
B

buddha0991

Member
encephalon said:
I think Lisa's response cements it as a joke answer.

I guess it's better than P4 or P5.
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Lisa has a crush on Tatsuya for the entire game so its more disappointment from her end, especially where this happens in the story, which is right after she confesses to him.
 
L

Ludger Kresnik

Member
It's honestly depressing how far Persona has regressed in this regard. As good as P5 was at hitting certain glaring social issues, this is one thing they keep fucking up. It's even worse because... they totally did it 18 years ago. I know there's different writers and staff now, but with their more recent focus on social commentary and how people are labelled you'd THINK they'd actually at least acknowledge LGBT people, who do face a lot of stigma in Japan, outside of just as jokes, but...

Sigh.
 
N

NichM

Banned
I would be very careful about making a claim like this--not just about the Persona series, but any representation--if you don't have the lived experience to support it.
 
R

Ravidrath

Member
I try not to get too worked up about this stuff, especially from Japan, but the gay dudes in P5 that show up a few times are... pretty horrible.

It's pretty typical as far as Japanese gay representation goes, where it's all super over-the-top and jokey, and everyone is terrified of them.

But I expected more from this series, or at least that it could've been toned down a bit in the localization.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
NichM said:
I would be very careful about making a claim like this--not just about the Persona series, but any representation--if you don't have the lived experience to support it.
Click to expand...

Compared to the later games in the series it sure is.

With all the negative sentiment the games have been inspiring, I thought it was good to highlight a positive example.
 
L

Ludger Kresnik

Member
Ourobolus said:
It's been a while since I played the original Nier, but what about Emil? I honestly don't remember anything coming up about it...
Click to expand...

It's more obvious in Replicant, where he says he'd want to marry Brother Nier. It's kinda vagued up in Gestalt/the English version. I think Yoko Taro also confirmed it himself somewhere?
 
T

Thud

Member
Only the Eikichi one is a joke. Tatsuya has feelings for all three. However Ginko can't really compete with Jun and Maya on the same level.

In Innocent Sin I would definitely say Jun and Tatsuya are meant to be paired. I'll stop there before we dwell into spoilers.
 
N

NinjaCoachZ

Member
Not following up on this, or the female MCs of EP and P3P, are probably some of my biggest frustrations with modern Persona. It really does feel like the series has gone backwards in some respects. The series prides itself on this sense of tackling human issues maturely, but it's aggravating that there's so many underlying ideals in the recent games that go against that.

P2 is really such a special game. So criminal how overlooked it is.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
Ourobolus said:
I thought it was hinted that Vanille/Fang had something going on, but AFAIK it's not outright stated anywhere.
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Yeah, I remembered that nearly right after submitting lol. But as you said, it's never really specified.

I'm not going to try and "gal pal" it up by claiming that an potential female same sex relationship is actually just "gal pals" but it would've been nice if it was more explicit in terms of defining their relationship.
 
E

encephalon

Member
Hm, OK. Even more reason to appreciate the best game in the series.


Thud said:
Only the Eikichi one is a joke. Tatsuya has feelings for all three. However Ginko can't really compete with Jun and Maya on the same level.

In Innocent Sin I would definitely say Jun and Tatsuya are meant to be paired. I'll stop there before we dwell into spoilers.
Click to expand...

Just spoiler tag them.:)
 
N

NichM

Banned
cj_iwakura said:
Compared to the later games in the series it sure is.
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I mean, that's possible. But what's your aim here, and why? Is this a thread about all JRPGs over the last 3 decades, as the title says? If so, why say only "compared to the later games in the series" here? Are you here to call out content specific to one of the later Persona games? Because we have no shortage of LGBTQ people doing that for themselves. Is your intent to laud Persona 2's approach to LGBTQ topics specifically? If that's the case, are you the most qualified person to make that case? If you're a straight man (and maybe you're not, I don't know you) might there be angles or nuances you're not considering that are worth discussing?
 
P

Palette Swap

Member
Yeah, that's disappointing. I love all the newer games and probably prefer them to 2 overall, but thematically, I feel it's stronger and more adult (or less otaku pandering) than its successors.

Garrett Hawke said:
who in FFXIII is homosexual?

I'm drawing a blank, and I've played FFXIII and XIII-2.
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Vanille and Fang I guess, but it was nothing to write home about.
Edit: haha, they're sisters.
 
C

Clov

Member
I love Jun's character, and I really appreciated seeing this in IS. It's really too bad that the more recent Persona titles are such a massive step down in comparison. I really wish that Atlus would be more progressive in this area, but it feels so unlikely. They don't strike me as the kind of company who cares what their overseas fans think about their titles, and I doubt they care about any LGBT people like me think either. It's a bit depressing, since I love their games.
 
7

7Th

Member
Vanille and Fang are adoptive sisters, they're orphans that grew in the same place; they aren't blood related.
 
O

Ourobolus

Banned
Garrett Hawke said:
is this confirmed anywhere? they have the same last name but apparently that's due to coming form the same place
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This is my confusion, since it's supposed to be
Oerba Dia Vanille
Oerba Yun Fang

Where Oerba is the name of the community, Dia/Yun are clan names, and Vanille/Fang are their names.

7Th said:
Vanille and Fang are adoptive sisters, they're orphans that grew in the same place; they aren't blood related.
Click to expand...

ah, ok
 
B

Bladenic

Member
So not even Vanille and Fang were lesbians? Ugh Japan.

Well maybe Nier? Other than that I'm pretty lost. Isn't there a gay character in Wild Arms 2?
 
S

Scrooge McDuck

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
Yeah, I remembered that nearly right after submitting lol. But as you said, it's never really specified.

I'm not going to try and "gal pal" it up by claiming that an potential female same sex relationship is actually just "gal pals" but it would've been nice if it was more explicit in terms of defining their relationship.
Click to expand...

Also, they are women, which unfortunately are more accepted as fetish fuel as long as they're not being too uncomfortably obvious about it. If that's being progressive, might as well put Nights of Azure and Hyperdimension Neptunia up there.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
Nier and Nier Automata are jointly the most progressive JRPGs with regard to LGBT representation. Numerous explicitly or implicitly queer characters that are respectfully written and integrated. P2 is surely the hallmark in that regard as far as Persona goes, but... only Persona.
 
M

MechaX

Member
Personally, I think they did pretty well with Kanji when I got through his dungeon and his first month or so of joining the party.

... And then they continue to not only make it a massive joke through Yosuke's teasing not too long afterwards (which came off as extensively mean even when I first played it), but also gave a cop-out in
Naoto being obviously female, so Kanji doesn't have to question the attraction anymore really.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Massive Duck said:
They're sisters and it's stated point blank in Japanese but apparently the English version made it vague for reasons
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Wait, what? It's been years since I played the game, but I certainly don't remember anything alluding to them being sisters, at least by blood. I thought they were just childhood friends from the same village or whatever?
 
H

Hours Left

Member
Makes Yosuke's behaviour in P4, and those NPCs in P5 even more disheartening. The series has definitely regressed in this area and it's very disappointing.

There has been some progress in a few other series like Fire Emblem (which had some good hidden behind some really bad), and the Tales series, but there's a long way to go before it's anywhere near adequate. They need to first move away from the endless teasing through subtext, and the damaging stereotypes heaped onto most actually confirmed gay characters.

And this is not just in Japan either, as we can see even western developers formally lauded for LGBT inclusion still stumbling. (Bioware.) While many other companies are still devoid of any true effort at all.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
Scrooge McDuck said:
Also, they are women, which unfortunately are more accepted as fetish fuel as long as they're not being too uncomfortably obvious about it. If that's being progressive, might as well put Nights of Azure and Hyperdimension Neptunia up there.
Click to expand...
I agree, unfortunately. w/w same sex relationships aren't viewed w/ as much derision as m/m stuff as a side effect of women's sexuality and intimacy being seen as lesser & non threatening.

also the lesbian fetish.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
NichM said:
I mean, that's possible. But what's your aim here, and why? Is this a thread about all JRPGs over the last 3 decades, as the title says? If so, why say only "compared to the later games in the series" here? Are you here to call out content specific to one of the later Persona games? Because we have no shortage of LGBTQ people doing that for themselves. Is your intent to laud Persona 2's approach to LGBTQ topics specifically? If that's the case, are you the most qualified person to make that case? If you're a straight man (and maybe you're not, I don't know you) might there be angles or nuances you're not considering that are worth discussing?
Click to expand...
Maybe I just want to highlight positive examples in the medium. Do I need a doctorate in the field or something? Maybe you should bring some up angles instead of criticizing.
 
M

Marmaladefire

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
is this confirmed anywhere? they have the same last name but apparently that's due to coming form the same place
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I believe it's just the knee jerk response people like to give when you point out how obvious it is that they seem like a couple. Which is hilarious, and sad considering that is pretty much textbook queer female erasure. Even "adopted sisters" has such a "Uranus and Neptune are cousins"-esque connotation

P4 and 5 are BAD about this. P5 has much fewer instances of it, but P4 has a frequently homophobic toxic-masculinity riddled insecure fuck boy best friend character, who pretty much never gets called out and it's just awful. Honestly I don't expect any better from the team. The weird shifts about gender roles and female sexualization and what does and doesn't count as creepy statutory rape is almost as much of a staple of the series as Igor at this point.
 
J

Joqu

Member
I always wonder about yosuke's infamous unused lines in Persona 4. Feels like we got so close there, I was really expecting P5 to step things up for the longest time as a result.
 
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