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Let's talk about a small scene from Raimi's Spider-Man 2...

Seesaw15

Member
The hell?

This is the same defense used for ASM. Just wait for ASM2! That's obviously what they're building toward! A long-form arc.

FYI, Peter had just as strong development in SM1.

A perfect example of the difference of Peter in SM1 to Peter in Homecoming is that Homecoming Peter feels entitled to Stark's super-suit that does everything for him.

In Spider-Man 1, a (again, broke-as-fuck) struggling Peter Parker is offered help from Norman Osbourne, who offers to make a call to get Peter a job 'It's no problem. I'll make a couple calls.'

Peter's response? Thank you. But I like to earn what I get.

Osbourne's (who is the fucking villain of this film) then displays a quiet admiration of Peter: You want to make it on your own steam. Good for you.


So no. When you have 120 minutes to tell a story, and you can develop the moral compass of your character in such a short amount of time, saying 'Just wait for the second movie' is not a valid excuse imo.

You're comparing a college freshman's decision making ability to that of a high school sophomore's.Fine.Lets ignore the hypocrisy of Rami's Peter wanting to "make it on his own" even though he's living in a massive Manhattan apartment where 90% of the rent is payed for by Harry's Dad. At the end of Homecoming Peter makes the same decision and turns down his pseudo farther figures offer for help in order to "make it on his own".

You keep bring up bringing up the ASM franchise as a valid comparison for what to expect in sequels and character arcs when it isn't. The MCU has spent the better part of a decade establishing itself and it's characters so when they leave some aspects of character develop for future movies I trust them. The Rami films are great but they weren't perfect. Same is true for Homecoming.
 

Gin-Shiio

Member
I watched this video today, and want to give it more clicks.
https://youtu.be/m1kT0vFXd0w?t=19m5s SM2 stuff starts at 19m in.
Here is ComicBookGirl19 going over Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2. The internal conflict between life as Peter and duty of being Spider-Man.
I agree with much of what she is saying and why the movie works so well. I pretty much love all of Raimi's stuff though.

Oh, wow, thanks for that. She is fantastic.
Personal take on MCU Spidey: This cinematic universe isn't known for its emotional depth, and I don't think we will get it for its Spider-Man either. Which is a shame, as it is such a defining trait of the character.
 
You're comparing a college freshman's decision making ability to that of a high school sophomore's.Fine.Lets ignore the hypocrisy of Rami's Peter wanting to "make it on his own" even though he's living in a massive Manhattan apartment where 90% of the rent is payed for by Harry's Dad. At the end of Homecoming Peter makes the same decision and turns down his pseudo farther figures offer for help in order to "make it on his own".

You keep bring up bringing up the ASM franchise as a valid comparison for what to expect in sequels and character arcs when it isn't. The MCU has spent the better part of a decade establishing itself and it's characters so when they leave some aspects of character develop for future movies I trust them. The Rami films are great but they weren't perfect. Same is true for Homecoming.

Erm, doesn't he basically take the suit back from Tony though?
 

eizarus

Banned
It's a shame that superhero movies which focus on character interaction more than spectacle are so rare. The MCU is all spectacle with no heart (with a couple of exceptions) and DCs lineup is in a weird place trying to find it's corner.

I enjoyed Homecoming as a highschool movie but not as a Spidey movie so much. There's just too much fear from Marvel about showing real emotional depth. There are too many jokes thrown in immediately after something dramatic, as if they don't have confidence in their own writing. Other than the scene where
Stark goes ape at Peter for the boat incident
, the movie felt pretty empty. Keaton had some excellent scenes though.
 

jtb

Banned
Right on the money, as always. Raimi never gets the credit he deserves from underscoring the humanity of Peter Parker because of QUIPZZZ

Tobey's Peter has a pure heart, and Raimi always reminds you of it in the subtlest and most devastating of ways. That's what missing from most other superhero adaptations (Snyder please retire) and every non-Cap superhero in the Marvelverse.

Raimi films the GOAT.
 
Erm, doesn't he basically take the suit back from Tony though?

No, the suit that Tony had on standby if Peter were to accept his offer was a different design and presumably more advanced. Tony returns the suit he was using the majority of the film in a non-descript brown paper lunch bag, Peter doesn't ask for it back.
 
No, the suit that Tony had on standby if Peter were to accept his offer was a different design and presumably more advanced. Tony returns the suit he was using the majority of the film in a non-descript brown paper lunch bag, Peter doesn't ask for it back.

That's what I was wondering, will future MCU Spidey still have the advanced tech shit?
 
No, the suit that Tony had on standby if Peter were to accept his offer was a different design and presumably more advanced. Tony returns the suit he was using the majority of the film in a non-descript brown paper lunch bag, Peter doesn't ask for it back.

That's what I meant though. He took back the super-advanced suit that has its own Jarvis and automatic systems that he was earlier pissed about having taken off him.
 
A perfect example of the difference of Peter in SM1 to Peter in Homecoming is that Homecoming Peter feels entitled to Stark's super-suit that does everything for him.

I don't think entitled is the word for it. You have a 15 year old kid who most likely looks up to Tony Stark both as a hero and a super smart scientist, asked to help out with the Avengers and given a super awesome suit to fight crime with. You damn right he is going to be excited about that suit and treasure it. Who wouldn't. This isn't the same as adult Peter Parker being offered a gift from a peer.

Just because he comes to the realization that the suit doesn't make him doesn't mean he shouldn't use it period. From what we see he doesn't even like using all that super stuff, he really just needs the eye piece to help him focus. And of course it fits a lot better than that bootleg one he made.
 
Y'all can talk shit about ASM1 but the crime fighting while having a terrible cold is peak Spider-Man from a comedy and character stand point
 
Remember when people were saying that when the Amazing films were out? Lol

Nah. Fuck that noise.

Raimi's Spider-Man omits fundamental parts of all of the characters, particularly Peter. Raimi's Peter Parker was Peter in name only.

Both the Amazing Spider-Man Peter and Homecoming Peter are much closer and more accurate depictions of the character.
 
It's moments like this film that reminds us of the "smaller things" in film. I wish more CBM these days had the kind of moments like the one that was mentioned for SM, though they do some fantastic moments of course.
 

Spinluck

Member
I love Rosemary Harris' Aunt May, still the best one imo. Tomei's hip parent thing was cool and fit the Homecoming, but they didn't really explore the dynamic between them as far as I would've liked.

Aunt May's "There's A Hero in All of Us" in SM2 was excellent. She delivered this speech after walking out in disappoint during Peter's confession that he was responsible for Ben's murder. These movies man, such strong recurring themes.
 
Raimi's Spider-Man omits fundamental parts of all of the characters, particularly Peter. Raimi's Peter Parker was Peter in name only.

Both the Amazing Spider-Man Peter and Homecoming Peter are much closer and more accurate depictions of the character.
Does more faithful = better? Because that seems to be what you're implying.

Only one Peter Parker thus far embodies the term "With great power, comes great responsibility". And that's Raimi's.
 
Scenes like that remind me why Spider-Man 2 continues to be my favorite Spider-Man movie, as well as one of my favorite super hero movies in general. It's not so much about Spider-Man, it's about Peter Parker having to deal with the crushing responsibility of being a hero while trying to live his personal life. Often to the detriment of the other.
 

VeeP

Member
Hope so. Parker isnt rich like the Raimi Spider-man to make his own suit.

See, that's why the Raimi movies shit all over Homecoming. Peter tells Norman "naw man, I like to earn what I get" and then he levels up his sewing abilities to level 100 and makes a badass suit.

/s
 

Davide

Member
While I love Homecoming, Peter will get even less down to earth going forward. He'll have seen aliens, space, and continue to be funded by a billionaire. I can't imagine this Peter ever having money problems.
 

VeeP

Member
While I love Homecoming, Peter will get even less down to earth going forward. He'll have seen aliens, space, and continue to be funded by a billionaire. I can't imagine this Peter ever having money problems.

4P11P.png


MCU more faithful confirmed
 

itwasTuesday

He wasn't alone.
Oh, wow, thanks for that. She is fantastic.
Personal take on MCU Spidey: This cinematic universe isn't known for its emotional depth, and I don't think we will get it for its Spider-Man either. Which is a shame, as it is such a defining trait of the character.

I really hope more people watch it here. And nit picking Martin from Double Toasted.
 
The issue is of terminology. Most people don't know what a fantastic or great film is but we call our favs it. Nothing wrong with saying it's not fantastic.
 

Grisby

Member
I watched this video today, and want to give it more clicks.
https://youtu.be/m1kT0vFXd0w?t=19m5s SM2 stuff starts at 19m in.
Here is ComicBookGirl19 going over Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2. The internal conflict between life as Peter and duty of being Spider-Man.
I agree with much of what she is saying and why the movie works so well. I pretty much love all of Raimi's stuff though.


I haven't seen Homecoming yet, btw.
This was great.

I think that's one of the major reasons why the get power back/clock tower/train scene is so good. Not only is it just awesome from a shot and action point of view, but Pete goes through so much shit in S2 that this was as big of a release for him as it was for the audience.

They really break down Peter Parker before building him back up.
 

Eidan

Member
Exactly what was "subtle" about the moment outlined in the OP? Its intention and purpose in the character's arc was clear as fucking day. And I don't say that to say that the moment outlined was poorly done. I am saying it to highlight this odd need to elevate the Raimi films by treating every mundane moment in them as the pinnacle of cinematic storytelling, like that stupid YouTube video that decided to highlight one moment in Spider-Man 2 where a joke wasn't delivered to make a grand statement on how modern a superhero movies have too many jokes, as if the Raimi films don't have numerous dramatic moments undercut by comedic beats or Raimi's regrettable schmaltz.

I fully expect Homecoming to develop a following as intolerably protective of it as that which has surrounded the Raimi movies. When the next Spider-Man reboot starts, expect a thread from the Scullibundo of the day talking about the subtle brilliance of Homecoming's depiction of high school, and how the modern Spider-Man is shit because there isn't a scene where Peter has to ditch a school competition to perform heroic duties.
 
Sure, it's a scene that does what it sets out to do, but the way you gush over this movie like it's a Nanni Moretti film is funny. There aren't multiple layers to its scenes and its characters are pretty simple. The film itself is superficial, like most blockbusters. I don't know why this particular movie moves you so much.
 
Spider-Man 2 is still the GOAT hero movie.

* Birthday scene

* New Yorkers passing Peter along and keeping his secret after they see him without the mask. "He's just a kid..."

* Peter hanging out and having tea with Otto

* Raindrops keep falling on my head montage

Raimi was firing on all cylinders and making it look effortless. Like others have said, the MCU is entertaining but mostly forgettable and emotionally hollow aside from a couple of exceptions. Spider-Man 2 just has this immaculate touch of adventure, fantasy, bittersweet emotion, and humor that has really been a lasting memory for me.
 
While I love Homecoming, Peter will get even less down to earth going forward. He'll have seen aliens, space, and continue to be funded by a billionaire. I can't imagine this Peter ever having money problems.

Nah man, Tony is gon die in IW :p

On topic though, I guess what bugs me about this comparison is how forced it feels. Both films may center on Spider-Man but the similarities are skin deep at best. The only way to really compare them uniquely in a way you couldn't with other movies is on the merits of how well they translate the character from one medium to another. That aside, the comparison is just incredibly unnecessary. It's like comparing Nolan's TDK trilogy with Schumacher's two Batman movies. They both draw from the same source material but they're trying to do fundamentally DIFFERENT things, such that they only thing really connecting them in terms of genre is the fact that the main character is a superhero.

Raimi's films stand apart from just about every modern day superhero movie because, at its core, it's not about the superhero or alter identity, it's how the existence of that superhero affects the very personal lives and interactions of its characters. It's a character drama first, escapist superhero movie second. But that itself has its own limitations, namely the fact that Raimi's movies don't really inhabit a bigger world in which Peter operates. The world Raimi constructed revolves solely around Peter and how he effects the world around him rather than Peter acting as a single player in a world that would happily continue to turn without him. Homecoming made a conscious decision to NOT do that, for better or worse, and that's what makes it a fundamentally different type of film. Raimi's Spider-man movies could easily be turned into a stage play (minus the spectacle and action) with how laser focused it is on Peter Parker's angst and drama. You can't really say that about any other comicbook movie.

And all this shit about Peter not having an arc in Homecoming is just that, it's bullshit. That's not to say it does any of that nearly as well as Spider-man 2, it doesn't, but Peter has a very clear and understandable arc. Another poster put it succinctly that the lesson he learns at the end can be encapsulated as "Stay in school, Peter." And while that may sound trite, it's actually a pretty fucking huge lesson for Peter to learn at this juncture in his life. It's a lesson Raimi's Spider-man takes for granted because Raimi never cared about what Peter's journey developing into Spider-man would even look like. Raimi's Spider-man gets bit and is instantly a perfect superhero, it's just the personal life that goes straight to hell. Watt's Spider-man can't really do either very well, which is the whole goddamn point! That's a side of the character we've never gotten to see, and there's nothing about that focus that's inherently better or worse than Raimi's decision to make Peter's love life the most important part of the character.
 
Exactly what was "subtle" about the moment outlined in the OP? Its intention and purpose in the character's arc was clear as fucking day. And I don't say that to say that the moment outlined was poorly done. I am saying it to highlight this odd need to elevate the Raimi films by treating every mundane moment in them as the pinnacle of cinematic storytelling, like that stupid YouTube video that decided to highlight one moment in Spider-Man 2 where a joke wasn't delivered to make a grand statement on how modern a superhero movies have too many jokes, as if the Raimi films don't have numerous dramatic moments undercut by comedic beats or Raimi's regrettable schmaltz.

Erm, where exactly did I say that the scene was subtle? I said it was effective in communicating information about the character in a short amount of time. It's concise. Its intention and purpose should be clear as day, because that's exactly what I'm arguing.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Unless you took offense to my saying that Homecoming's characterization announces itself out loud without showing? Because it does. The comparison comes up because I feel Homecoming spends a whole lot of time not developing a whole lot, character wise. It feels like the film is treading water for 90% of its bloated runtime.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
I really enjoyed Homecoming and thought it was a fun and memorable film.

But Spider-Man 2 is the GOAT, and I think it will remain the GOAT because the MCU Spidey won't have a proper opportunity to explore the duality of being Spider-Man and Peter Parker, especially now that
May knows his secret.
 

Sou Da

Member
Y'all dudes have really deified this film huh?

Like to the point where I'm almost afraid to speak out against it.
 

Haines

Banned
Homecoming is a very good spiderman but raimis were on another level.

And I cant imagine homecoming 2 sucking so we are just lucky to get suck good spidey movies
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Exactly what was "subtle" about the moment outlined in the OP? Its intention and purpose in the character's arc was clear as fucking day. And I don't say that to say that the moment outlined was poorly done. I am saying it to highlight this odd need to elevate the Raimi films by treating every mundane moment in them as the pinnacle of cinematic storytelling, like that stupid YouTube video that decided to highlight one moment in Spider-Man 2 where a joke wasn't delivered to make a grand statement on how modern a superhero movies have too many jokes, as if the Raimi films don't have numerous dramatic moments undercut by comedic beats or Raimi's regrettable schmaltz.

I fully expect Homecoming to develop a following as intolerably protective of it as that which has surrounded the Raimi movies. When the next Spider-Man reboot starts, expect a thread from the Scullibundo of the day talking about the subtle brilliance of Homecoming's depiction of high school, and how the modern Spider-Man is shit because there isn't a scene where Peter has to ditch a school competition to perform heroic duties.

I haven't seen Homecoming so I can't deign compare the films, but I read the intent of the OP isn't to praise the 'subtlety' of the scene, so much as highlighting how it maintains a consistent and cohesive message that stands firm with both the character, his arc, and the narrative.

The point is that yes, the message is clear and upfront as you state, but also genuine and carries itself throughout the entire film in a myriad of ways beyond merely being a catchphrase. I mean even you painted another example in your own post about how Raimi and the writers choose to test Spiderman's altruism when given such great personal advantages, which is kind of the crux that the films setup rather early in. Why the anger?
 

Sou Da

Member
Well, are you going to or not?
My gripes are mostly with the relationship, it's flimsy and all of the drama is thin and incredibly forced.

Also MJ is downright unlikeable in this film and the wedding scene seals that for me, makes the whole thing fall apart really. And Pete's not the character they're trying to sell us, he's more of a born victim then anything.
this bit is a smaller problem than the first two
 
Does more faithful = better? Because that seems to be what you're implying.

Only one Peter Parker thus far embodies the term "With great power, comes great responsibility". And that's Raimi's.
See, this attitude just proves that this thread is a bunch of garbage. You all talk about evolution of a character and storytelling, but then balk at anything that doesn't rigidly adhere to what has become a cliché about Spider-Man.

Spider-Man grew into the responsible character you are describing. He had a distinct evolution that followed him throughout the years, and yet still harbored many flaws. Raimi's Spider-Man never did that. He had one traumatic event that turned him into a "hero" . Character growth over. Raimi stuck so rigidly to the power/responsibility line that his Spider-Man didn't possess one single endearing quality outside of that. His Spider-Man had no character flaws. Character flaws are what make Spidey Spidey!
You asked if more faithful = better. Yes. Both ASM Spider-Man and Homecoming Spider-Man are more well rounded, relatable, interesting characters than Raimi's Spider-Man ever was.
 
Have to agree with the OP. Homecoming had little or shallow character development for Peter Parker. Raimi Spiderman had that in spades.

I honestly wish we got a Raimi Spiderman 4 instead of the two very shitty ASMs and even Homecoming for me at least, wasn't that great.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
See, this attitude just proves that this thread is a bunch of garbage. You all talk about evolution of a character and storytelling, but then balk at anything that doesn't rigidly adhere to what has become a cliché about Spider-Man.

Spider-Man grew into the responsible character you are describing. He had a distinct evolution that followed him throughout the years, and yet still harbored many flaws. Raimi's Spider-Man never did that. He had one traumatic event that turned him into a "hero" . Character growth over. Raimi stuck so rigidly to the power/responsibility line that his Spider-Man didn't possess one single endearing quality outside of that. His Spider-Man had no character flaws. Character flaws are what make Spidey Spidey!
You asked if more faithful = better. Yes. Both ASM Spider-Man and Homecoming Spider-Man are more well rounded, relatable, interesting characters than Raimi's Spider-Man ever was
.

Not really sure how this proves anything. It's a statement with no argument.

And really? Raimi never tests Peter or Spiderman to betray his altruism? Or to consider the possibilities for abusing his powers that Peter is now gifted for personal gain. His principles are tested quite often, hell its largely made a defining trait of his origin story! Remember when he disobeyed Uncle Ben and snuck off to specifically use his powers to hustle some cash for the express intent to impress Mary Jane with a new car? I mean that is was just one example in the first 15m of film 1.
 
Here's the thing about quips that SM2 apologists never seem to get. Raimi made a great film that will always be a favorite of mine but over the course of 3 movies, you very rarely got a sense of how much Peter enjoys being Spider-man. A few whoos while web slinging and one or two jokes don't really cut it. He kinda-sorta tried to show the fun of being Spider-man in SM3 but made the mistake of turning Peter into a complete asshole in the process. Quips aren't a necessity, and Raimi did just fine without them, but it's understandable why fans of the character would want Spider-man to act like Spider-man.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
It's a shame that superhero movies which focus on character interaction more than spectacle are so rare.
Yup. Character development is so much more interesting than endless repetitive fights. Fights that work towards building the characters are the only worth giving a damn.
 
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