Only the second one is better and not by much, the first Spider-Man wasn't anything special. It's a good movie but forgettable. I think homecoming does a much better job than 1.
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Let's talk about a small scene from Raimi's Spider-Man 2...
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Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Why. She has a crush on Peter and is trying to get his attention. In a perfect world, he would've asked her out instead of MJ who is a horrible character and the object of his affection for no other reason than looks
Don't forget the music.
https://youtu.be/QP9QcBX3-uk
Also Spiderman 2 > 1 > Homecoming > 3 > the rest
In homecoming, Peter seems too... normal. The situation with himnand May seems quite nice tbh. She's perfectly understanding to him and there are on growing pains. No bullies in school. Can get the girl if he actually asks her out. The only real dilemma is him trying to impress stark and learning to grow up. There's no adversity that make him who he should be from a personal standpoint.
Being poor, causing Bens death etc. those things shape why he's Spider-Man. Not just trying to impress Stark to be an Avenger.
Plus the High school scenes were super shallow and didn't go deep at all on anybody really. I mean that's what you do with Zendaya in you're movie, really
I rewatched Spiderman 2 yesterday and was reminded at how fantastic the film is, it handles the conflict and impracticality of being a super hero in a somewhat grounded world beautifully, themes of responsibility weaving though Pete & Doc Oc personal goals regardless of the perspective was executed so well, just fantastic writing, massive difference from MCU version which was pretty forgettable. Peters conflict are good displays of moral consequentialism, Raimi puts forth impressive examples of these moral dilemmas, your a Superhero but you killed you best friends father, do you tell him and lose him or do you protect him and be seem like a traitor? You save a child without your powers yet you could have save more with your powers, but then you sacrifice your right to normalcy . Do you have the right to have what you want? Do you sell pictures of Spiderman to a paper looking to vilify him and thus undo all the good work Spiderman is doing just so you, as Peter can pay your rent? Film is filled with these dilemmas and we see Peter & the audience struggle through all of this. Oh, the music is iconic, swinging through NY with Elfmans theme are some of the highest points in a comic book movie.
Aunt May 'Hero in all of us", man that chocked me up a little. I appreciate this movie more then ever - its been 8 years since i saw it last, simply blown away at how good it still is.
LOL at Toby face during the train scene though. Best Marvel film by far.
Aunt May 'Hero in all of us", man that chocked me up a little. I appreciate this movie more then ever - its been 8 years since i saw it last, simply blown away at how good it still is.
LOL at Toby face during the train scene though. Best Marvel film by far.
See, for me homecoming has the best world for Peter with the objectively worst Peter Parker. Raimi Peter was fucking great as a guy, a really good representation of the character with a grounded ongoing "parker luck" joke. I just wasn't big into doc ock or Venom at all, and the cast of important characters was pretty small.
Homecoming has a sweet story arc and excellent world full of enjoyable characters, except Peter is insufferable and gets handed the suit Peter had just built himself in the comics by his absentee tony stark dad. Also aunt may stinks as an adaptation of that character. She's great! Just idk. Peter really weighs the movie down.
I'd rather him stressfully talk to himself intead of she-Jarvis. It was cute, but meh.
I also felt like I was the only one who hated civil war for awhile. Overwhelmingly the consensus was that Holland was the GOAT spidey and homecoming handed you... that. With essentially no meaningful strife or development of the character. He had a scapegoat with tony stark for the stuff he fumbled instead of taking it personally, and by the end he just kept spidermanning.
Homecoming has a sweet story arc and excellent world full of enjoyable characters, except Peter is insufferable and gets handed the suit Peter had just built himself in the comics by his absentee tony stark dad. Also aunt may stinks as an adaptation of that character. She's great! Just idk. Peter really weighs the movie down.
I'd rather him stressfully talk to himself intead of she-Jarvis. It was cute, but meh.
I also felt like I was the only one who hated civil war for awhile. Overwhelmingly the consensus was that Holland was the GOAT spidey and homecoming handed you... that. With essentially no meaningful strife or development of the character. He had a scapegoat with tony stark for the stuff he fumbled instead of taking it personally, and by the end he just kept spidermanning.
I think people are being too harsh on Homecoming. Sure its not a great film, but its a good film. Every version of a superhero is going to be tailored for its specific generation and homecoming is for the most part a good version of Spiderman for the modern teenager.
In saying that its still worse then Rami's trillogy. Its much better then Amazing 1 and 2.
In saying that its still worse then Rami's trillogy. Its much better then Amazing 1 and 2.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I'm pretty sure I said that the Uncle Ben conflict was Peters driving force through all three movies.
That's the problem with Raimi's Spider-Man - that's ALL he was. The other two representations had OTHER THINGS that defined them. ASM's selfishness directly put his loved ones in danger, which is a core tenet of Spider Man. Homecoming Spidey actually has a life and other aspirations and goals that he cares about, that get pushed aside as he loves being Spider-Man above all else. As someone said early in the thread, you never got the idea that Raimi Spider-Man actually liked being Spider-Man - he was always on the "power... Responsibility blah blah blah" garbage. Spider-Man's best moments have always come when his desires clash with his ethics. As I said earlier, the flaws are what made the character.
It also seems a lot of people are missing the point of Homecoming - the underlying point was
failure - Spider-Man fails throughout the movie until he learns to put his hero worship aside.
So many of these brilliant little touches are often lost on people. All that's seen is Tobey's awful performance and then the rest of the daytime soap tier melodrama just goes unnoticed.
Let me know if I'm recalling correctly, but isn't there a moment in Homecoming where Peter just says "that shit doesn't matter I'm going to be an Avenger!"
I quite like Homecoming, but as with much of the broader mcu, it doesn't indulge in slower scenes that are allowed to breathe. I mean, efficiency has always been one of the core traits of films produced by Marvel Studios, and that can often be seen in how scenes are written and composed.
More than the acting and writing in that SM2 scene, it's the quietude and mundanity that really make it work. It feels real.
Aside from, maybe, Steve and Peggy's bedside scene in The Winter Soldier or Pepper/Tony's Heart operation scene in IM1, everything in the mcu is written to maximize impact or to make character beats "punchier", to the point of being really, really obvious.
More than the acting and writing in that SM2 scene, it's the quietude and mundanity that really make it work. It feels real.
Aside from, maybe, Steve and Peggy's bedside scene in The Winter Soldier or Pepper/Tony's Heart operation scene in IM1, everything in the mcu is written to maximize impact or to make character beats "punchier", to the point of being really, really obvious.
hemo memo
Gold Member
That's the point. He's a 15 years old kid.
Homecoming Spiderman has the support of avengers, in a world where gods fly around with aliens coming through the sky, he wears an AI suit that does most of the thinking for him, of course he can sit back and enjoy life as his human troubles are distractions rather then life changing as seen in Raimi movies, this is why Homecoming fell short. Raimi Spiderman did love being Spidey as you can see when he's swinging around (screaming yee-haw, woo) he's enjoying himself but it's obvious so we don't focus on it too much, "there are bigger things at play" no need to indulge on the obvious. I found that more gripping then Homecoming, there's always Iron Man to save him so no struggle is really a struggle (lol he did save him with an AI Ironman). When you see that you just switch off, the stakes arnt as high and there's always a safety net.
How old is 15 really
Anyway 15 isn't some super young naive age. There has been plenty of media showing young teenagers with power who also know how to be responsible given what they have. As Stark said, he doesn't deserve the suit and frankly, he shouldn't have gotten it back even at the end regardless of him defeating the Vulture. He still didn't learn anything
You know what? I hope they find another director for the Homecoming sequel.
Jon Watts wasn't bad, I just didn't feel like he really put signature stamps on the film that made it stand apart, nor really made it his own in a way that made me think "this guy has to come back!" I feel it is a competent film but there are a few details I wish he was able to capture about Spider-Man/Peter and his world.
Regardless of how you feel about Raimi's take on the character, I think he had a thorough understanding for the character and a love for the character and his supporting cast that really came through. You have to acknowledge that even if you don't agree with his adaptation.
I don't think Jon Watts has the same strong vision for the character; I can see Marvel's vision but I didn't feel like seeing him through Watts lens added much to this interpretation, although I would be interested to see what he wanted to be in the film because I may be very wrong. I just want to see someone with the same passion for the character as Raimi since I think it could really elevate the MCU Spider-Man films from good to great since there already is so much I like there.
Watts did get the tension in some scenes just right, but some of the more emotional scenes or scenes that are supposed to connect 2 characters were good, but just didn't make me connect with what they were going through in a way I thought it should have.
Jon Watts wasn't bad, I just didn't feel like he really put signature stamps on the film that made it stand apart, nor really made it his own in a way that made me think "this guy has to come back!" I feel it is a competent film but there are a few details I wish he was able to capture about Spider-Man/Peter and his world.
Regardless of how you feel about Raimi's take on the character, I think he had a thorough understanding for the character and a love for the character and his supporting cast that really came through. You have to acknowledge that even if you don't agree with his adaptation.
I don't think Jon Watts has the same strong vision for the character; I can see Marvel's vision but I didn't feel like seeing him through Watts lens added much to this interpretation, although I would be interested to see what he wanted to be in the film because I may be very wrong. I just want to see someone with the same passion for the character as Raimi since I think it could really elevate the MCU Spider-Man films from good to great since there already is so much I like there.
Watts did get the tension in some scenes just right, but some of the more emotional scenes or scenes that are supposed to connect 2 characters were good, but just didn't make me connect with what they were going through in a way I thought it should have.
This thread and some of the stuff posted here have made me change my mind a bit about Homecoming.
I already thought that there being almost no theme of responsibility was weak, and that the character of Peter was complete except for this missing conflict of selfishness and selflessness, and the goodness which defines him.
Overall, I think if we could get an average of the two - the emotional and personal part of Raimi's film and the fun, teenage spirit and less cheese (as well as the action) of Homecoming I think we could have a very good film. My favourite Spider-Man comic was Ultimate Spider-Man and it managed to have both.
Unfortunately, Homecoming is bogged down with MCU stuff, not only the actual connection with the Avengers and Stark but the always-comedic tone and fast-paced nature of these films. I cannot recall a single time in the MCU where I felt something was really emotionally impactful (The only movie I missed was Thor 2: The Dark World) so I hope they manage to recover that in the next.
I already thought that there being almost no theme of responsibility was weak, and that the character of Peter was complete except for this missing conflict of selfishness and selflessness, and the goodness which defines him.
Overall, I think if we could get an average of the two - the emotional and personal part of Raimi's film and the fun, teenage spirit and less cheese (as well as the action) of Homecoming I think we could have a very good film. My favourite Spider-Man comic was Ultimate Spider-Man and it managed to have both.
Unfortunately, Homecoming is bogged down with MCU stuff, not only the actual connection with the Avengers and Stark but the always-comedic tone and fast-paced nature of these films. I cannot recall a single time in the MCU where I felt something was really emotionally impactful (The only movie I missed was Thor 2: The Dark World) so I hope they manage to recover that in the next.
Homecommings biggest issue isn't anything to do with themes. Its biggest problem is poor producing/directing that is unsure of itself and is more interested in repeating itself and creating "Cool" or "Iconic" in the Ubisoft sense of the word scenes rather then making a functional cohesive film that understands the pace/flow of a highschool film.
Spoilers for Action sequences
The time spent on these redundant sequences would be better spent on character development which is mostly nonexistent outside of Ned and the occasional "Hot Aunt May" joke. Or John Hughes homage.
Spoilers for Action sequences
Spiderman Homecomming has 6 primary action scenes that can esentially be categorized into 2 versions of the same 3 scenes. So it essentially has 3 redundant action scenes.
Introductory Action scene
The Point Break ATM Robery - Spiderman fights some street level goons and his inexperience leads to a local Deli being destroyed.
Donald Glover Cameo 1 - Spidey interrupts some smalltime thieves doing a suburban Arms deal. Small foot vs Car chase ensues.
These scenes essentially serve the same purpose which is to show a raw Spidey learning on the job and introduce the films antagonists.
We want an "Iconic moment" Action scene where Peter screws up and Iron man chews him out
Ferry Sequence - Heavily inspired by Rami's Train sequence in Spiderman 2 this is an attempt at doing a character beat hero moment on NY public transit.
Washington Monument sequence - Ned inadvertantly endangers his classmates due to Peter's stupidity. Peter swoops in and saves the day successfully, but Tony chews Peter out for his recklessness/stupidity.
Vulture Heist scene's
SMH contains 2 heist scenes where Peter interacts with the Vulture. The main issue is that there should only be one of these scenes and it should be the films final confrontation. The Road Convoy scene is too small scale to be an act 3 finale and the Plane sequence has no stakes because the audience isn't concerned about Peter falling. He's the hero and he will be in the sequels. Its also too large a scale of destruction for a "street level hero". Crashing a plane in NY isn't something that is associated with street level crime.
SMH only needs one of these scenes. It should be a souped up version of the road convoy involving multiple cars, multiple "Vulture Crew" members and a police escort.
Introductory Action scene
The Point Break ATM Robery - Spiderman fights some street level goons and his inexperience leads to a local Deli being destroyed.
Donald Glover Cameo 1 - Spidey interrupts some smalltime thieves doing a suburban Arms deal. Small foot vs Car chase ensues.
These scenes essentially serve the same purpose which is to show a raw Spidey learning on the job and introduce the films antagonists.
We want an "Iconic moment" Action scene where Peter screws up and Iron man chews him out
Ferry Sequence - Heavily inspired by Rami's Train sequence in Spiderman 2 this is an attempt at doing a character beat hero moment on NY public transit.
Washington Monument sequence - Ned inadvertantly endangers his classmates due to Peter's stupidity. Peter swoops in and saves the day successfully, but Tony chews Peter out for his recklessness/stupidity.
Vulture Heist scene's
SMH contains 2 heist scenes where Peter interacts with the Vulture. The main issue is that there should only be one of these scenes and it should be the films final confrontation. The Road Convoy scene is too small scale to be an act 3 finale and the Plane sequence has no stakes because the audience isn't concerned about Peter falling. He's the hero and he will be in the sequels. Its also too large a scale of destruction for a "street level hero". Crashing a plane in NY isn't something that is associated with street level crime.
SMH only needs one of these scenes. It should be a souped up version of the road convoy involving multiple cars, multiple "Vulture Crew" members and a police escort.
The time spent on these redundant sequences would be better spent on character development which is mostly nonexistent outside of Ned and the occasional "Hot Aunt May" joke. Or John Hughes homage.
Spider-Man 2 is an emotional ride. The performances, ost, scenes...
Rewatched it recently for the first time in years and couldn't believe how good it was.
The fact that I'm older and broke too hit home as well.
Homecoming was your jokey pop corn flick with edgy comments every 4 seconds. Not a bad movie though but yeah, not even close.
Rewatched it recently for the first time in years and couldn't believe how good it was.
The fact that I'm older and broke too hit home as well.
Homecoming was your jokey pop corn flick with edgy comments every 4 seconds. Not a bad movie though but yeah, not even close.
Zoso
It's been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely lonely lonely lonely lonely time.
I agree with the OP. Loved those moments in the Raimi films. As much as I enjoyed watching Homecoming, it suffers from many of the same problems that make these MCU movies feel hollow.
Film Crit Hulk had a pretty great article about this recently.
Spider-Man & The Marvel Fatal Flaw
A few excerpts:
Film Crit Hulk had a pretty great article about this recently.
Spider-Man & The Marvel Fatal Flaw
A few excerpts:
It's worth reading his full article.
For me Homecoming was the same empty experience as other MCU movies. The characters are extreme one-liner and plot devices with no charm or humanity to be seen. The fights are technically nice, but lack any emotional impact or danger. They are like cut-scenes from video games. And the worst part was the villain, Vulture was a psychopath yet the writers kinda wanted us to care for him being all "working class hero" and showing some humanity in the end, but it was all cheap manipulation.
It was a really bad movie, but I guess another character and IP has been absorbed to the MCU where nothing stands out from the rest.
I think it's time to rewatch the Raimi movies!
It was a really bad movie, but I guess another character and IP has been absorbed to the MCU where nothing stands out from the rest.
I think it's time to rewatch the Raimi movies!
Great post. 👏
That's why it's still the highest grossing origin movie of all time (nothing has come close until Wonder Woman).
It was just a film that resonated with people in a huge way, became ingrained in pop culture and we would not be where we are with comic movies today without it.
So nothing special.
I get if you don't like it, but saying the first Raimi movie is "nothing special" is like saying the first Donner Superman or Tim Burton Batman are "nothing special."
hipsterpants
Member
This thread is making me overthink Homecoming and now the last fight is bothering me. Imagine if he hadn't successfully navigated the plane or been unlucky with the trajectory, it would have been exactly the same situation as the boat. Peter didn't learn shit.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
This post tells me that the point of the movie totally flew over your head. Did you miss the last 30 minutes of the movie? Serious question.
It always felt to me that Raimi tricked Sony into letting him make Spider-Man, and once that made a ton of money he went full Raimi in SM2. You're not going to get a quiet cake eating scene in the MCU.
Dark Knight, Spidey 2, and Winter Soldier are the superhero trinity for me.
Dark Knight, Spidey 2, and Winter Soldier are the superhero trinity for me.
Hands of Stone
Member
I'd love to see Raimi get another crack at Spider Man, could you imagine if they tapped him for the sequel?
The Emperor
Member
Raimi trilogy is GOAT!
It is an emotional impactful journey. I care...those films make me care. There is so much heart to them.
Whereas MCU is 'hahaha banterz...jokezzz'. Like they'll have an emotional moment and quickly make a joke out of so it loses all impact!
Wonder Woman was a recent superhero film with heart
.
It is an emotional impactful journey. I care...those films make me care. There is so much heart to them.
Whereas MCU is 'hahaha banterz...jokezzz'. Like they'll have an emotional moment and quickly make a joke out of so it loses all impact!
Wonder Woman was a recent superhero film with heart
.
captainnapalm
Member
Raimi was totally committed to that Lee/Ditko origin story of power and responsibility and what it really means to be both a struggling kid and a superhero. And it worked just as well in the films as it did in the comics.
Seeing Peter Parker struggle with his life and responsibilities and his aunt and his girlfriend and money and a job and growing up. He wasn't just a hero automatically. He grappled with the concept of what it meant be a hero, how a person should act when given powers and how it impacts their life.
It was that fresh take on the superhero genre that basically allowed Marvel to become what it did in the 60s - and it again arguably allowed comic book movies to take off like they did in the 21st century. It strongly resonated with people in two different eras.
Seeing Peter Parker struggle with his life and responsibilities and his aunt and his girlfriend and money and a job and growing up. He wasn't just a hero automatically. He grappled with the concept of what it meant be a hero, how a person should act when given powers and how it impacts their life.
It was that fresh take on the superhero genre that basically allowed Marvel to become what it did in the 60s - and it again arguably allowed comic book movies to take off like they did in the 21st century. It strongly resonated with people in two different eras.
LilWayneSuckz
Member
Spider-Man 2 is a much better movie, with much better dialogue.
I just feel Tom Holland's interpretation of Spider-Man fits more with the MCU. And I believe that the movie was a good introduction for him as a leading man.
I just feel Tom Holland's interpretation of Spider-Man fits more with the MCU. And I believe that the movie was a good introduction for him as a leading man.
Homecoming is a great MCU film. The problem is that it has to be compared to two GOAT predecessors. That's why I'm against the "give everything to MCU" people*, if the MCU had everything, we wouldn't have gotten the first 2 Spider-Man films, X-2, Deadpool, or Logan. Those 5 movies are better than anything from the MCU (except Civil War).
* That being said, SM in the MCU is a great idea, just keep X-Men with Fox.
* That being said, SM in the MCU is a great idea, just keep X-Men with Fox.
Byakuya769
Member
Exactly. Could you imagine the goofy face Tobey would have worn after finallly connecting with his dating interest only to find out that he needs to bail on their date because her dad is a super villain who had just threatened his and his family's lives? Would have convinced me of that "Parker luck" instead I'm like, damn... Peter is so lucky to have this final battle play out, homecoming is a lame event anyway. Fuck Tom Holland, he sucks.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
I think they went too far in the "no origin story" department and relied too heavIly on what we already know.
There were very few scenes that showed the new Peter as an admirable person IMO, and that was the only bad part
There were very few scenes that showed the new Peter as an admirable person IMO, and that was the only bad part
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I think this thread just shows how hard it is to defend Homecoming's faults. The answer always is, "Holland is a better Spider-Man". Strange.
gutter_trash
Banned
Peter's motivations of wanting to get Stark's approval overshadowed his original reason of becoming Spider-Man the hero
I feel like the only thing keeping Spider-Man 2 from being one of my favorite movies of all time is Tobeys dumb expressions. He can take a super cool scene, like stopping the train, and immediately pull me out of it lol.
Kaneda Shotaro
Member
Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2 might be the best comic book films ever. Expertly made with a lot of love.
SM1 and SM2 are films, whereas recent MCU is not. I haven't seen Homecoming yet, but the main problem with most of the recent MCU films is that they hang their hats on razor thin characterization, quick quips, and are plotted and filmed as if some kid is speed-reading through panels in a comic book rather than taking their time to make it through the story.
The earlier MCU doesn't suffer from this and neither does much of the better TV series offerings simply because of the format.
The earlier MCU doesn't suffer from this and neither does much of the better TV series offerings simply because of the format.
autumnleaf
Member
Aww I really hoped this was going to be a thread about the scene where the Russian girl offers him cake.
I suppose it has more impact if you've had a background of dealing with poverty. Peter Parker's struggles in those movies always felt overwrought to me, the first movie being much better about it than the second or third. You can show that he and Aunt May are struggling to get by without having to lay it on so thick.
Glass Rebel
Member
People are tripping over themselves to discredit the movie because it didn't indulge in making Peter wallow in guilt for three movies straight with criticism that basically amounts to nothing more than "not my Spider-Man". It's literally what people who didn't like Raimi's movies (as much) were accused of.
