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[AntraxSuicide]

A lot of compromises were made in the name of reunification following the civil war. Black people suffered for most of them. The US would be very different today if an actual attempt was made to integrate the emancipated slave population into American society. But the white population of the North was still racist, even if they didn't think that human beings were livestock. Freeing the slaves was noble and all, but few people wanted said free slaves in their neighborhoods.

Yeah, they really messed it up. Like, I get not being too punitive since places can get unpredictable when they're really pressed (post WW1 Germany turning to Hitler, for example). But post-Civil War, we literally did nothing. Not one trial. Confederate generals went on to hold elected office, or continued to serve as officers. They got buried as heroes. If we had actually hanged their leadership, I think the country today would be so much better off. As a nation, we haven't actually really admitted any real guilt for the Confederacy and slavery in general.

 

[The Kree]

Yeah, they really messed it up. Like, I get not being too punitive since places can get unpredictable when they're really pressed (post WW1 Germany turning to Hitler, for example). But post-Civil War, we literally did nothing. Not one trial. Confederate generals went on to hold elected office, or continued to serve as officers. They got buried as heroes. If we had actually hanged their leadership, I think the country today would be so much better off. As a nation, we haven't actually really admitted any real guilt for the Confederacy and slavery in general.

They also got paid for all the slaves they let go.

Not exactly what I would call losing, aside from all the death by musket.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Oh my God the truth bombs in here convinced me not to see it.

I was in the camp of wait till it comes out but not anymore.


I read this article twice it was so good.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Coates is my hero, my inspiration, my favorite writer living or dead. He inspired me to become a writer. I've read almost everything the man has put out. I feel a very strong connection to him. We were both born and grew up in Baltimore.

This article is perfect.

 

[tanooki27]

How far in production are they? If it's pre-, there's still time to stop the show. But they and HBO seem like the dig in their heels type.

I would imagine HBO is loathe to silence some of its premier creators

 

[Herr Schwarz]

I feel like this show is as of right now a platform up to the soap box where like minded people can lecture each other on things they already agree with.

No one is on the other side of this issue; and if they are they sure as fuck aren't reading your long form think piece deconstructing and strawmanning your way to self reverential levels of racial piety.

As it stands there isn't anything tangible to deconstruct, the show doesn't have content in which one can accurately gleam its message.

So yeah, wake me up when there's a corpse to behold.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

No one is on the other side of this issue; and if they are they sure as fuck aren't reading your long form think piece deconstructing and strawmanning your way to self reverential levels of racial piety.

Two people in this thread have already said the article changed their mind on the show

 

[norm9]

I would imagine HBO is loathe to silence some of its premier creators

HBO has always been premium tv. Good luck weathering this one.

 

[AndersK]

A lot of compromises were made in the name of reunification following the civil war. Black people suffered for most of them. The US would be very different today if an actual attempt was made to integrate the emancipated slave population into American society. But the white population of the North was still racist, even if they didn't think that human beings were livestock. Freeing the slaves was noble and all, but few people wanted said free slaves in their neighborhoods.

I'm the first to lament people for a ludicrous lack of awareness, but I can't say I've ever considered your facts as an option. I just assumed... Fuck me.

Nazis killed my great-Grandfather in WW2, a nautical mine after the war was done, while he was fishing. If it weren't for the huge and absolute necessary reparations and admittance of guilt by the German state, I doubt relations would be as amicable as they are,today. if shit would've got handwoven away and Albert Speer was pardoned for 'not being Goebbles' I'd be livid.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Two people in this thread have already said the article changed their mind on the show

By issue I mean the evilness that went down during that period and the current racism today.

But this whole thing is HBO getting dragged by intellectually dishonest PC thugs. That can revel in clicks that the HBO outrage can get them, like those little fish living in the mouth of a shark that's made a fresh kill.

There is no body of work to get upset about, this is the literal definition of judging a book by its cover or blurb. It's ignorant.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

But this whole thing is HBO getting dragged by intellectually dishonest PC thugs. That can revel in clicks that the HBO outrage can get them, like those little fish living in the mouth of a shark that's made a fresh kill.

Do you want to try that again or should we skip the part where we pretend we don't know what you're doing?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Read this earlier after seeing it linked on Twitter and really couldn't agree more.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Do you want to try that again or should we skip the part where we pretend we don't know what you're doing?

I mean you kind of just proved my point right. You decided to bypass the substance in favour of what my use of the term pc thug.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I mean you kind of just proved my point right. You decided to bypass the substance in favour of what my use of the term pc thug.

There was no substance. You called us intellectually dishonest PC thugs and offered no actual points or arguments.

Intellectually dishonest about what?

Ignoring the fact that you apparently believe that it's incorrect to judge and criticize a concept before it's been produced. Let's just hope you don't work in Hollywood.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I see we have a master ruseman in our midst. Well played, old chap.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

There was no substance. You called us intellectually dishonest PC thugs and offered no actual points or arguments.

Intellectually dishonest about what?

About trying to deliver an informed critique of a show that doesn't even have a singular page of content written yet?

I mean you can have the argument and talk it, why tether yourself to HBO?

 

[AndersK]

There was no substance. You called us intellectually dishonest PC thugs and offered no actual points or arguments.

Intellectually dishonest about what?

Ignoring the fact that you apparently believe that it's incorrect to judge and criticize a concept before it's been produced. Let's just hope you don't work in Hollywood.

Im Fairly sure "Intellectually Dishonest PC Thugs" is shorthand for SJW. I don't know why you Bother.

 

[Vire]

An incredibly well-written article. Wow.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

About trying to deliver an informed critique of a show that doesn't even have a singular page of content written yet?

I mean you can have the argument and talk it, why tether yourself to HBO?

His article is literally about why the show should not be given the benefit of the doubt. That's all. It's about the concept and the people working on it, okay?

But I was unfortunately unaware that you apparently are a troll of the highest caliber. My mistake. Now who's being intellectually dishonest?

I'll leave you to it, Fuhrer Schwarz.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

About trying to deliver an informed critique of a show

Nobody's critiquing the show.

They're critiquing the concept, the context, and the trustworthiness of the people in charge of executing that concept.

Coates' article (and 99% of all backlash to this announcement) isn't "an informed critique of the show" and it's not presented as such. It's bullshit to describe it that way, but not as bullshit as describing people who are giving voice in opposition as "PC Thugs"

This isn't a review of a non-existent show

It's a review of American History, popular culture, and the way the two have intertwined to the detriment of Black people in America.

 

[Bronx-Man]

PC Thugz sounds way more badass than "sjw" now that I think about it.

We pulling up to ya hoods, doing driveby's on any mf that ain't practicing intersectional feminism

 

[sgjackson]

I mean you kind of just proved my point right. You decided to bypass the substance in favour of what my use of the term pc thug.

I don't think it's ignorant or reactionary to assert that an idea can be bad conceptually, and I think Coates's breakdown of why Confederate is bad conceptually is well-stated. He's asserting that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and that both the American entertainment industry and Benioff and Weiss have a history of misrepresenting key social issues in a depiction of the Confederacy in harmful ways - in the case of Hollywood, misrepresenting the Confederacy as misunderstood gallant knights, and in the case of Benioff and Weiss, handling the issue of sexual assault poorly in Game of Thrones.

While there's wiggle room to address the above argument by saying "It could be different this time!", he also goes further and addresses how the core premise is historically flawed - the Reconstruction Era elevated key players in the Confederacy to powerful positions and did little to address the core issue of the conflict, whereas a similar situation (Nazi Germany) was handled much more strongly and strictly. The idea that a what-if history of the Confederacy winning being bad because many of the key Confederate players didn't lose all that much in the process and still maintained some level of power isn't flawed either.

The above two concepts were stated pretty succinctly and reasonably convinced me that the show is conceptually harmful, and if being open-minded and analyzing a well-written article makes me ignorant then so be it.

 

[cdyhybrid]

I feel like this show is as of right now a platform up to the soap box where like minded people can lecture each other on things they already agree with.

No one is on the other side of this issue; and if they are they sure as fuck aren't reading your long form think piece deconstructing and strawmanning your way to self reverential levels of racial piety.

As it stands there isn't anything tangible to deconstruct, the show doesn't have content in which one can accurately gleam its message.

So yeah, wake me up when there's a corpse to behold.

You could at least pretend you read the article.

Put some effort in, man.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

PC Thugz sounds way more badass than "sjw" now that I think about it.

We pulling up to ya hoods, doing driveby's on any mf that ain't practicing intersectional feminism

Seriously, changing it to that could work wonders if you think about it.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

His article is literally about why the show should not be given the benefit of the doubt. That's all. It's about the concept and the people working on it, okay?

But I was unfortunately unaware that you apparently are a troll of the highest caliber. My mistake. Now who's being intellectually dishonest?

I'll leave you to it, Fuhrer Schwarz.

Um, you? Again I think the reactions are vastly premature. If it pilots and its deeply racist trash, no ones going to watch it and then you can write as many articles as you like.

But I'm not going to attack ghosts of ideas that aren't even in any kind of tangible product just yet.

 

[Enzom21]

You could at least pretend you read the article.

Put some effort in, man.

I doubt he cares what some uppity "thug' has to say.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

But I'm not going to attack ghosts of ideas that aren't even in any kind of tangible product just yet.

Yes we know you act before you think.

 

[metalslimer]

By issue I mean the evilness that went down during that period and the current racism today.

But this whole thing is HBO getting dragged by intellectually dishonest PC thugs. That can revel in clicks that the HBO outrage can get them, like those little fish living in the mouth of a shark that's made a fresh kill.

There is no body of work to get upset about, this is the literal definition of judging a book by its cover or blurb. It's ignorant.

PC Thugs? Wow...that's some cute dog whistling

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But I'm not going to attack ghosts of ideas that aren't even in any kind of tangible product just yet.

These aren't "Ghosts of ideas"

You keep trying to frame this as a review of a show. It's not a review of a show. It's not presented as such, framed as such, or argued as such. The ideas being argued aren't contingent on the show being good. The conversation doesn't hinge on whether the show justifies itself as a creative choice. It's about why the creative choice is being made at all, whether you should trust the people making that choice, and the effects of similar choices throughout entertainment history, choices that reflect (and often feed into) larger cultural choices, most of which have forever served to let the American South off the hook for their treasonous, traitorous, hateful, subhuman bullshit.

You wanna wait to see if the TV show is good stories. Okay. That's worth more to you than what the contents of this conversation are. Okay. That's your call.

Pretending that you're the only sane one in a world of crazy people because of those choices is fairly disingenuous and unfair both to the people taking the time to read before they speak, and to yourself

 

[AndersK]

I too, prefer to critique when shits already gone bad. Fuck doing stuff prematurely. What if you ruffled some snowflakes?

That's why I never criticize Mr Drumpf, after all, no nukes are flying yet.


(and I even fuckin' like GoT and it's showrunners as a whole. Don't mean I feel this is a Good idea.)

 

[Almighty]

It covers the time when the South was ascendant, at least on Civil War battlefields, and the Union was beset by poor leadership. I don't see that as pro-confederacy, but I am willing to admit the film may be poorly done. If I saw it when it was released, it has certainly passed from memory.

You need to re-watch the movie then. The South winning the battles is not the problem, it is everything else in that movie. The movie spends hours going out of its way to paint the Southern cause as this noble sympathetic issue of states rights and it glosses over slavery as much as it can.

The movie fits the Lost Cause narrative to a tee and if what you say is true and the books don't then I feel bad for the author(s).

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I too, prefer to critique when shits already gone bad. Fuck doing stuff prematurely. What if you ruffled some snowflakes?

That's why I never criticize Mr Drunpf, after all, no nukes are flying yet.


(and I even fuckin' like GoT and it's showrunners as a whole. Don't mean I feel this is a. Good idea.)

I wonder how many Herr Schwartz's there were in Germany right before WW2.

 

[AndersK]

I wonder how many Herr Schwartz's there were in Germany right before WW2.

Many, but I'd argue they didn't have any actual freedom to speak out, at least not in a way that's comparable to today.

The real tragedy is doing this shit pro bono.

 

[Bronx-Man]

The original PC thug

 

[Veelk]

There needs to be some kind of study done over the cognitive dissonance that occurs in people who believe in things like "PC thugs" that are too sensitive, yet immediately pull the "I'm feeling very attacked right now" the moment people respond to their poorly thought 'criticism' of articles.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Nobody's critiquing the show.

They're critiquing the concept, the context, and the trustworthiness of the people in charge of executing that concept.

Coates' article (and 99% of all backlash to this announcement) isn't "an informed critique of the show" and it's not presented as such. It's bullshit to describe it that way, but not as bullshit as describing people who are giving voice in opposition as "PC Thugs"

This isn't a review of a non-existent show

It's a review of American History, popular culture, and the way the two have intertwined to the detriment of Black people in America.

Right but why tether yourself to the show in order to make the article in the first place then if it's not in some way trying to go after the shows premise.

and even with this critique, what's the answer, just stop trying?

I mean it'll probably be a show about black people trying to set up a sci fi version of the underground railroad, it could be interesting! Dystopias are the in thing right now.

I say let it play out

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

This topic shook me proper. I'm sorry i didnt really grasp the essence of the backlash against the project, before i read through this.

I've always assumed confederate leadership was tried for their actions and complicity. No fuckin' wonder the sentiment lingers.

Nobody was tried. They all went home. The racist thought was allowed to breed which is why it still exists.

 

[Claude Augario]

By issue I mean the evilness that went down during that period and the current racism today.

But this whole thing is HBO getting dragged by intellectually dishonest PC thugs. That can revel in clicks that the HBO outrage can get them, like those little fish living in the mouth of a shark that's made a fresh kill.

There is no body of work to get upset about, this is the literal definition of judging a book by its cover or blurb. It's ignorant.

Going from reading words and ideas thoughtfully and meticulously crafted by Ta-Nehisi Coates to this verbal diarrhea is such a whiplash in quality.

Like, I'm embarrassed that you actually typed this out.

 

[Veelk]

Right but why tether yourself to the show in order to make the article in the first place then if it's not in some way trying to go after the shows premise.

and even with this critique, what's the answer, just stop trying?

I mean it'll probably be a show about black people trying to set up a sci fi version of the underground railroad, it could be interesting! Dystopias are the in thing right now.

I say let it play out

Have you even actually read the article?

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Going from reading words and ideas thoughtfully and meticulously crafted by Ta-Nehisi Coates to this verbal diarrhea is such a whiplash in quality.

Like, I'm embarrassed that you actually typed this out.

The disparity almost makes you think the Internet wasn't worth it. Almost

 

[Angelus Errare]

By issue I mean the evilness that went down during that period and the current racism today.

But this whole thing is HBO getting dragged by intellectually dishonest PC thugs. That can revel in clicks that the HBO outrage can get them, like those little fish living in the mouth of a shark that's made a fresh kill.

There is no body of work to get upset about, this is the literal definition of judging a book by its cover or blurb. It's ignorant.

I hope you're this uppity about folks who are excited for this show despite having no body of work to get excited about.

You know judging a book by it's cover or blurb and all.

 

[entremet]

I’m in the wait and see camp but that was persuasively argued.

 

[lightskintwin]

Right but why tether yourself to the show in order to make the article in the first place then if it's not in some way trying to go after the shows premise.

and even with this critique, what's the answer, just stop trying?

I mean it'll probably be a show about black people trying to set up a sci fi version of the underground railroad, it could be interesting! Dystopias are the in thing right now.

I say let it play out

There's already a sci fi version of the Underground Railroad where it's an actual Railroad being adapted by Barry Jenkins for a TV series for Amazon.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Right but why tether yourself to the show in order to make the article in the first place then if it's not in some way trying to go after the shows premise.

The show's premise != the finished show. It's fair to go after the premise because they put the premise out there. There's nothing unfair about addressing the premise. There is something unfair about trying to frame criticism of pursuing that premise as an "informed critique of the finished show."

That's bullshit. You were doing that earlier while calling people PC Thugs.

We know you want it to play out. It's more important to you to watch a TV show than to actually engage with any of the ideas being brought up. Your entire M.O. is to find ways to dismiss the ideas being discussed for the most specious of reasoning because that "fixes" the thing faster.

But your fixes don't fix anything. They don't address the issues being brought up, and like I said earlier, they're not doing us, or yourself, any favors.

If you wanna let it play out you can wait for it to either get made or not made. But don't suggest people who are willing to think about the arguments being presented and engage with those arguments are all somehow practicing variations on the same intellectually dishonest theme when the primary intellectual dishonesty on display is 100% owned by you.

 

[Cipherr]

PC thugs eh?

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Have you even actually read the article?

Yeah I read the article, did you read my first post where I said no one is going to be on the other side of the argument that article is advocating? Except the racists that aren't going to be reading it anyway? Did ya read that bit? Nahh

I just draw the line at trying to scuttle a show that isn't even out yet. And if that wasn't the intention, why even tether it to the show in the first place.

So you can play historical ping pong in comparing some of the brutality in GoT to historical confederate america i guess?

 

[Opto]

PC thugs eh?

Not to be confused with the PC thugs of gaming side, ever since everyone realized "pc master race" was not a great term

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Yeah I read the article, did you read my first post where I said no one is going to be on the other side of the argument that article is advocating? Except the racists that aren't going to be reading it anyway? Did ya read that bit? Nahh

I just draw the line at trying to scuttle a show that isn't even out yet. And if that wasn't the intention, why even tether it to the show in the first place.

So you can play historical ping pong in comparing some of the brutality in GoT to historical confederate america i guess?

OK will do that and you can have fun with your not thinking thing I guess

 

[Veelk]

Yeah I read the article,

Can you please summarize it for me then? Just the main points and what their reasoning is.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

The show's premise != the finished show. It's fair to go after the premise because they put the premise out there. There's nothing unfair about addressing the premise. There is something unfair about trying to frame criticism of pursuing that premise as an "informed critique of the finished show."

That's bullshit. You were doing that earlier while calling people PC Thugs.

We know you want it to play out. It's more important to you to watch a TV show than to actually engage with any of the ideas being brought up. Your entire M.O. is to find ways to dismiss the ideas being discussed for the most specious of reasoning because that "fixes" the thing faster.

But your fixes don't fix anything. They don't address the issues being brought up, and like I said earlier, they're not doing us, or yourself, any favors.

If you wanna let it play out you can wait for it to either get made or not made. But don't suggest people who are willing to think about the arguments being presented and engage with those arguments are all somehow practicing variations on the same intellectually dishonest theme when the primary intellectual dishonesty on display is 100% owned by you.

I'm not engaging with the criticism because again, like I said in my first post, "No one is going to be on the otherside of the argument the author is making there"

There's a lot of ironic use of "did you read the article" going down, did you read the thread?