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[Two Words]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Isn’t the whole deal about being transgender that you have the physical body of one sex, but the mind of another sex?

 

[Tekomandor]

I'm always amazed how people think biological men and women can compete on the same level in any sort of sport that requires physical strength. This isn't some misogynistic conspiracy. Men and women are different for evolutionary purposes. She'd be better off going out for the men's league.

If she's been on hormones for a while, then she's not as strong as a man and would get destroyed in the men's league.

The effects of HRT on strength is massive.

 

[Skellig Gra]

If she's been on hormones for a while, then she's not as strong as a man and would get destroyed in the men's league.

The effects of HRT on strength is massive.

Fair enough, the point I was trying to get across is she would be more suited to compete in the mens league. In reality she unfortunately won't fit well in either.

 

[Skii]

I think she should be allowed to compete. People are born with genetic advantage for athletics all the time. No matter how much certain people train, they will never have the genetics to be as good as some of the top athletes.

 

[Adam Sadler]

Yikes at the people in this thread trying to call others transphobic so quickly.

The right decision certainly was made in this case but I will say I do think the results should depend on the person! It sucks for sure she cannot compete

 

[CebollaDeAbbott]

I'm curious what would the legal ramifications be if one of the other women were injured by her.

Would they be able to sue the league and would they have a case? Thats is another angle I'd be worried about if I had to make these decisions. I have no idea what the laws are in Australia so I'm not sure if this would even come into play.

I would say most people, even those in charge probably have no idea in regard to that. As it is unprecedented, at least in the sport of Aussie Rules.

It's generally like other sports, we have a tribunal, players can be suspended and will be disqualified from winning awards at the end of year. I don't know if there is an instance of a lawsuit (some players have copped very heavy fines however.)

 

[Skellig Gra]

I think she should be allowed to compete. People are born with genetic advantage for athletics all the time. No matter how much certain people train, they will never have the genetics to be as good as some of the top athletes.

Its Australian Rules Football though. She could kill the other women.

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Your basic post is causal reductionism.

 

[Jellie]

I think she should be allowed to compete. People are born with genetic advantage for athletics all the time. No matter how much certain people train, they will never have the genetics to be as good as some of the top athletes.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[jett]

Because no one in their right mind that played sports in their life would think this is ok, since they'd know the monumental difference between a man and a woman. This isn't some advantage, she was born a man. With all the overwhelming physical advantages that men generally have over women and would curb-stomp these women because she was born a man rather than you know.. those other specific advantages that people get born with.

You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.

Do people forget that a complete fucking scrub that smoked, drank and then dominated the fuck out of the Williams sisters in tennis in late 90s? He was ranked 203rd and fucking bodied them 6-1 and 6-2. Now imagine if Karsten Braasch the scrub that went even further down the list falling to 300s shortly after, was a transgender woman. We would have seen a physically born man playing and dominating the fuck out of the best tennis players of this century until she retired bored from owning everyone. All these moral social heroes on this topic would be for it and not watch the actual sport, and the tennis fans would rightfully tap out completely killing the female tennis sport for the next decade. There would be no Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Seles etc because they'd all be women that got fucking dominated by the Braasch. All would be footnotes in tennis history. From the specific advantage of being born a man and playing against the sex that is far weaker in comparison. This is what some of you are trying to make it seem similar to all the genetic advantages, and it's somehow not a parody.

I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just calling it out how it is. People that played sports wouldn't write this nonsense about equality since they know it's the complete opposite of it in reality. It just looks like a bunch of people that are ignorant on the subject that are tripping over themselves trying to sound like fair and balanced citizens looking for imaginary social points.

These are true words.

 

[nekkid]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

Mixed contact sports sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[shnurgleton]

Because no one in their right mind that played sports in their life would think this is ok, since they'd know the monumental difference between a man and a woman. This isn't some advantage, she was born a man. With all the overwhelming physical advantages that men generally have over women and would curb-stomp these women because she was born a man rather than you know.. those other specific advantages that people get born with.

You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.

Do people forget that a complete fucking scrub that smoked, drank and then dominated the fuck out of the Williams sisters in tennis in late 90s? He was ranked 203rd and fucking bodied them 6-1 and 6-2. Now imagine if Karsten Braasch the scrub that went even further down the list falling to 300s shortly after, was a transgender woman. We would have seen a physically born man playing and dominating the fuck out of the best tennis players of this century until she retired bored from owning everyone. All these moral social heroes on this topic would be for it and not watch the actual sport, and the tennis fans would rightfully tap out completely killing the female tennis sport for the next decade. There would be no Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Seles etc because they'd all be women that got fucking dominated by the Braasch. All would be footnotes in tennis history. From the specific advantage of being born a man and playing against the sex that is far weaker in comparison. This is what some of you are trying to make it seem similar to all the genetic advantages, and it's somehow not a parody.

I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just calling it out how it is. People that played sports wouldn't write this nonsense about equality since they know it's the complete opposite of it in reality. It just looks like a bunch of people that are ignorant on the subject that are tripping over themselves trying to sound like fair and balanced citizens looking for imaginary social points.

 

[blackflag]

Should probably be XX league and XY league instead of mens and womens league.

The chromosomal advantage is really what they mean anyway not the identity. Probably the only reason they aren't is because this wasn't really a known issue back when "men" and "women" were divided into sports leagues.

 

[Tekomandor]

Its Australian Rules Football though. She could kill the other women.

Then why is she allowed to play against less elite players? Come off it, it's clearly not an issue of safety.

She doesn't have a male testosterone balance, so are we going to institute a weight limit on the AFLW?

 

[rekameohs]

Sports (mainly contact sports like this) is the one field where I think biological differences will always prevent total integration.

 

[The Fatal Englishman]

I think she should be allowed to compete. People are born with genetic advantage for athletics all the time. No matter how much certain people train, they will never have the genetics to be as good as some of the top athletes.

There is a significant difference between marginal genetic advantages and a person who has over 30kg of mass over all the competition.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Then why is she allowed to play against less elite players? Come off it, it's clearly not an issue of safety.

She doesn't have a male testosterone balance, so are we going to institute a weight limit on the AFLW?

I think it is. As for the bolded, in all honesty its not a bad idea, would be clear as to who can and cannot compete regardless of gender.

 

[Tekomandor]

All the ignorance about the actual physical realities on display here is painful. Look up how the Olympics does it - notice how it's about hormone balances?

That's because actual experts who weren't busy excusing their transphobia with middle school science came up with them.

 

[mortal]

Because no one in their right mind that played sports in their life would think this is ok, since they'd know the monumental difference between a man and a woman. This isn't some advantage, she was born a man. With all the overwhelming physical advantages that men generally have over women and would curb-stomp these women because she was born a man rather than you know.. those other specific advantages that people get born with.

You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.

Do people forget that a complete fucking scrub that smoked, drank and then dominated the fuck out of the Williams sisters in tennis in late 90s? He was ranked 203rd and fucking bodied them 6-1 and 6-2. Now imagine if Karsten Braasch the scrub that went even further down the list falling to 300s shortly after, was a transgender woman. We would have seen a physically born man playing and dominating the fuck out of the best tennis players of this century until she retired bored from owning everyone. All these moral social heroes on this topic would be for it and not watch the actual sport, and the tennis fans would rightfully tap out completely killing the female tennis sport for the next decade. There would be no Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Seles etc because they'd all be women that got fucking dominated by the Braasch. All would be footnotes in tennis history. From the specific advantage of being born a man and playing against the sex that is far weaker in comparison. This is what some of you are trying to make it seem similar to all the genetic advantages, and it's somehow not a parody.

I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just calling it out how it is. People that played sports wouldn't write this nonsense about equality since they know it's the complete opposite of it in reality. It just looks like a bunch of people that are ignorant on the subject that are tripping over themselves trying to sound like fair and balanced citizens looking for imaginary social points.

Well said.

 

[Eylos]

Afaik the difference is most hormonal, why they dont use this as the parameter? I think they should develop international scientific parameters (If its more than hormonal), its what it should be used.

Not only a lazy Premisse, imo.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I can see both sides here but interesting to me that the AFL was actively promoting the game this way last year.

The guy on the left outweighs the guy on the right by 66kg or 145lbs.

How do they let the guy on the far right play! He's at a disadvantage because of his gender compared to the guy on the far left's gender.

Afaik the difference is most hormonal, why they dont use this as the parameter? I think they should develop international scientific parameters (If its more than hormonal), its what it should be used.

Not only a lazy Premisse, imo.

So no one with Low T or High T medical conditions from birth!

 

[Tekomandor]

I think it is. As for the bolded, in all honesty its not a bad idea, would be clear as to who can and cannot compete regardless of gender.

Then why is she being allowed to play in the lower leagues? That's only gong to be more dangerous, if you think she's unsafe.

 

[ResidentWeevil13]

Should probably be XX league and XY league instead of mens and womens league.

The chromosomal advantage is really what they mean anyway not the identity. Probably the only reason they aren't is because this wasn't really a known issue back when "men" and "women" were divided into sports leagues.

It’s a little more complicated than that. If trans women are actively taking hormones they are damaging their ability to grow faster, stronger, bigger as the men they are competing with.

Trans men on hormones would effictivley be taking a PED while competing against women.

Honestly, I don’t know if there is a good answer here for trans athletes on hormones. Either way they are in limbo.

 

[God Dayumm]

What hypocrites. The only sports that should have the right to turn away women like this are those that have height and weight classes.

 

[Poltergust]

There really should be an international standard on hormone treatments so that these situations can be avoided entirely.

 

[Lunar15]

It's almost like we need to transition to classifying sports by performance class, like weight classes in boxing. That said, I have zero idea how that would ever work for a broad variety of sports, and I also understand that weight isn't the metric we're using at all here.

Like, the question is: is it a problem that Hannah Mouncey isn't allowed to participate in the women's league, because she'd be at a huge advantage, or that she's not able to participate in the men's league because she's "not a man?"

 

[caesar]

Look to people from New Zealand/Tonga/Samoa.

The NZ rugby team for example have Aotearoa Mata'u who is listed as over 6ft and 133kg. Here is her next to a player from Hong Kong.



I would have no trouble with putting Hannah Mouncey up against her in Rugby... although I would think Hannah might not be so keen!

This is where the AFL's "the stage of maturity of the AFLW competition, its current player cohort" stance is understandable, but only if they have a plan to actually integrate girls like Hannah, or indeed girls like Aotearoa into the game at some point. As more money flows into the sport it is only natural that the bigger and stronger girls will take up AFL as well. This might be as simple as training the girls in tackling technique, but will likely involve additional and different training.

The claim that it is "borderline physically impossible" is absurd.

Hannah Mouncey is most likely far stronger than this girl. Grip strength, muscle density, bodyfat ratio etc. Mata'u would get run over.

 

[PIMPBYBLUD]

I don't know why these things are even a discussion. The integrity of the sport and the competition comes first. I'd never allow any transgender man > woman in female sports. Especially in contact sports. It's too dangerous and unfair.

.

 

[Skii]

There is a significant difference between marginal genetic advantages and a person who has over 30kg of mass over all the competition.

Genetics doesn't give just a marginal advantage lol.

 

[Count Dookkake]

.

 

[Stoop Man]

It’s a little more complicated than that. If trans women are actively taking hormones they are damaging their ability to grow faster, stronger, bigger as the men they are competing with.

Trans men on hormones would effictivley be taking a PED while competing against women.

Honestly, I don’t know if there is a good answer here for trans athletes on hormones. Either way they are in limbo.

Aren't there tests that can be done to measure this woman's current abilities vs women currently playing? There's a trans MMA fighter, isn't there?

 

[Extra Sauce]

Inclusiveness vs Fairness

 

[caesar]

Aren't there tests that can be done to measure this woman's current abilities vs women currently playing? There's a trans MMA fighter, isn't there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox


During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: “I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right,” she stated. “Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch…”

 

[JCHandsom]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Bingo.

If there was a cis-gendered athlete who was the same height and weight, would she be barred from the draft?

 

[Skellig Gra]

Then why is she being allowed to play in the lower leagues? That's only gong to be more dangerous, if you think she's unsafe.

Lower leagues are probably more concerned with filling rosters would be my guess.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

The only way a female athlete will achieve those stats is with steroids.

Absolutely false. My roommate used to be an athlete in high school, and she was slightly taller and stronger than this woman.

 

[Agremont]

Bingo.

If there was a cis-gendered athlete who was the same height and weight, would she be barred from the draft?

There would likely be significant differences in bone structure and musculature between the two. It wouldn't be comparable.

 

[The Fatal Englishman]

Genetics doesn't give just a marginal advantage lol.

Relative to 30kg of additional mass and much higher muscle and bone density over your average competitor, yeah, intra-sex genetic advantages are pretty marginal.

 

[caesar]

Absolutely false. My roommate used to be an athlete in high school, and she was slightly taller and stronger than this woman.

Stronger how?

 

[cartographer]

It's shitty to wait so long to make your decision public. Undeniably shitty.

She's been on hormones for almost two years and easily meets IOC hormone levels with the AFL previously adopting IOC standards. If they weren't going to let her enter the draft, they could have told her they weren't going to adhere to IOC standards a while ago. And I'd like to see provide their science if there's a different, realistic level they think she can meet, since she's reportedly well below the IOC limits.

"Ciswomen can't be that big" is just false, so stop.

They should make it chromosome based to get rid of this discussion. If you have at least a Y you compete in the XY bracket, if you only have X you compete in the XX bracket.

obviously if you take hormones that would give you an advantage it should be considered doping.

This is sort of a trip. "Rational" yeeesh.

 

[ozz ex machina]

Bingo.

If there was a cis-gendered athlete who was the same height and weight, would she be barred from the draft?

Ugh this is just such a stupid argument to make. This person has had their body grow with male testosterone levels. Bones will be thicker etc.

It's not fair for women who compete. It's that fucking simple. And honestly I'm not sure how any true trans competitor who USED TO COMPETE AS A MAN cannot feel guilty for running over the female competition. Honestly if they go down this route. Please just make all sports mixed gender and we can be done with it. I hope that's fair enough for everyone when the best female athletes in the world can't become professionals.

 

[Tekomandor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox


During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: “I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right,” she stated. “Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch…”

Note the section of the article with testimony from an actual expert contradicting Brents' salty accusations.

 

[Stoop Man]

Wait, she's only been on hormones for a year?

 

[llien]

Lots of people have genetic advantages. Why is it that we get to pick and choose which ones we'll allow?

Differences need to be too drastic for someone to look into it. E.g. 10 nanomoles of testosterone per liter of blood were forbidden regardless of it was trans person or not. (actually in cases below it wasn't)

Which is quite curious as:

Prior to IAFF regulations, Semenya dominated the 800m race at the world championships in Berlin, but she failed to move beyond the semifinals in Beijing after testosterone limits were implemented. When the testosterone rule was suspended in 2015, she returned to form, winning the 400m, 800m, and 1500m races at the African Championships — all on the same day — and an olympic gold the following year.

Still:

The Court of Arbitration for Sport suspended the IAAF’s testosterone rule in 2014, citing a lack scientific evidence to suggest that women with high levels of the hormone have a significant competitive advantage. The IAAF argued that testosterone is the most important boost to athletic performance, but the court stated that unless it could prove an average performance gap of 10 to 12 percent between male and female runners, there was not sufficient “evidence about the degree of the advantage.”

But wait:

This decision came after an Indian sprinter named Dutee Chand said the federation unfairly discriminated against women like her with higher testosterone levels. The IAAF rebuked the court’s decision, pointing to two large studies in Russia and South Korea showing that most elite female athletes had testosterone levels between 0.1 and 3.08 nmol/L and that 99 percent of female athletes had testosterone below 3.08 nmol/L. They argued the 10 nmol/L cap for women was “too generous.”

Transgender person who sided with IAFF:

Joanna Harper, a doctor and transgender woman who competed in male distance running events for decades, told the Court of Arbitration that when she started taking a testosterone blocker and estrogen as part of her transition, she became “noticeably slower.” Harper collated data from seven other transgender runners for a study published in the “Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities” and found that all of them had slower times competing as females.

Anyhow, on upcoming Olympic games (2018) testosterone levels won't be tested.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/03/heres-what-the-2018-olympic-gender-regulations-look-like/

 

[cartographer]

Note the section of the article with testimony from an actual expert contradicting Brent's salty accusations.

Also worth mentioning that Fallon Fox lost to someone who now has a 2-3 record in UFC.

Wait, she's only been on hormones for a year?

She's been taking them since 2015.

 

[cartographer]

double post, sorry.

 

[JCHandsom]

Ugh this is just such a stupid argument to make. This person has had their body grow with male testosterone levels. Bones will be thicker etc.

It's not fair for women who compete. It's that fucking simple. And honestly I'm not sure how any true trans competitor who USED TO COMPETE AS A MAN cannot feel guilty for running over the female competition. Honestly if they go down this route. Please just make all sports mixed gender and we can be done with it. I hope that's fair enough for everyone when the best female athletes in the world can't become professionals.

Ok, my b.

 

[Draxal]

Lower leagues are probably more concerned with filling rosters would be my guess.

They have no jurisdiction.

 

[Stoop Man]

She's been taking them since 2015.

Yeah, I'd say give her a couple of years to adjust. HRT works fast but I think it's tricky to get the right dosages in the first few years.

 

[cartographer]

Yeah, I'd say give her a couple of years to adjust. HRT works fast but I think it's tricky to get the right dosages in the first few years.

What hormone levels do you think she should achieve? Is there something wrong with the IOC standard?