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2012 NBA Mar |OT| Knicks fans now drinking JD in straight shots
- Thread starter reilo
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ryutaro's mama
Member
Royce of DailyThunder.com just tweeted this pic of Bestbrook being a complete freak in the All Star game.
DWill seems impressed.
Because of the color of the court, at a quick glance, it looks like they are playing outside on the beach, in sand.
Now you can't unsee it either.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
The sample size might be small compared to his overall body of work (all games), but it's plenty enough compared to total number of playoff games. Nobody talks about Lebron being a bad player during the regular season. Let's focus on where his criticism is laid at: the playoffs.
And we also aren't talking about his performances in first round appearances (lol Wizards, Baby Bulls, et al). We are talking about his performances in second round (Boston 2008, 2010), Conference Finals (Orlando 2009), and Finals (San Antonio 2007, Dallas 2011) series.
That's 29 games worth of data.
I have never ever seen a "superstar" produce 50-60% or even 70% of his regular season production in crucial playoff series like Lebron did in the 2007 Finals, 2008 Semi-Finals, 2010 Semi-Finals, and 2011 Finals UNLESS they are injured. Was Lebron injured? Hell no.
And Roy absolutely did take a huge amount of end-of-game shots, and his percentage was nothing but impressive. We can only judge on what a player does when he is in those situations. Your hypothetical is exactly that -- a hypothetical.
I don't buy one bit into your "he just got cold at the wrong time" argument. That's now how sports pan out in the playoffs.
Then Lebron loses on both fronts.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
LeBron is definitely not the only superstar to have bad playoff series, come on.
He's only had two good ones, if that, imo.
Black Mamba
Member
lebron is unique. It's not that he's chokes, it's that he completely checks out of games/series. Choking indicates someone trying to win.
Lebron has had more than 2 good series, though. He beat up on the Wiz a couple times.
Lebron has had more than 2 good series, though. He beat up on the Wiz a couple times.
In fact, here is a challenge.
Find me the following for Lebron James during the regular season:
4 straight games where he shot less than 36FG% (2007 Finals)
4 straight games where he shot less than 26FG% (2008 Semi-Finals, first four games)
3 straight games where he shot less than 34FG% and averaged more than 6TOV (2010 Semi-Finals, last three games)
6 straight games where he averaged less than 18PPG (2011 Finals)
Here, I'll even make it easy for you:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pstreak.cgi?player=jamesle01
Spoiler:
Find me the following for Lebron James during the regular season:
4 straight games where he shot less than 36FG% (2007 Finals)
4 straight games where he shot less than 26FG% (2008 Semi-Finals, first four games)
3 straight games where he shot less than 34FG% and averaged more than 6TOV (2010 Semi-Finals, last three games)
6 straight games where he averaged less than 18PPG (2011 Finals)
Here, I'll even make it easy for you:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pstreak.cgi?player=jamesle01
Spoiler:
He never ever has had streaks of games like that during the regular season. Ever. Ever. It's all unique to him in the playoffs.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I won't argue that he didn't show up in a lot of those games, but what you can't do is cherry pick those 29 games out of his entire playoff history. LeBron has played 92 playoff games.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#playoffs_advanced::none
Those don't look bad to me. He didn't do as well last year as in previous years but it wasn't that far from his career averages. Hell, if you compare his career regular season stats with his career playoff stats, you'll notice that nearly everything is the same.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#advanced::none
Like I said, things average out over time.
On Roy's case. Yes, he hit a lot of end of game shots. At a nice percentage. If you really think that if he continued to be put in those situations that he would continue to hit at the same rate....Well, I guess you can think that. Its just not likely at all that it would happen (note, I'm talking end of game stuff here, with 5 minutes left his numbers were pretty normal). And I think it is fine to think in hypotheticals when we're talking about something as cloudy and unsupported as clutchness.
Also, I don't agree with this but okay.
He's going to coast to a title this year, though.
Black Mamba
Member
It does seem that way. If he can't win in a lockout year where his team is clearly the best, my god.
When Lebron plays bad in the playoffs, he just doesn't play below his average. He plays terrible. He plays terrible by any players' standards, not just his own.
For three-to-four (or in 2011 Finals case, SIX) straight games. And in a format where a series winner is decided in under seven games? Good night.
For three-to-four (or in 2011 Finals case, SIX) straight games. And in a format where a series winner is decided in under seven games? Good night.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Just for keeping track, one of the top 3 basketball players ever had at least three horrific playoff series in his first eight years...Though he also had a ring and would have had another without crooked officiating.
Yes.
Yes.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Maybe its my memory playing tricks on me but LBJ completely and utterly destroyed the Magic in that conference finals. Definitely wasn't his fault in a series they should have got swept in.
Who?
Now that series was the exception, not the rule for Lebron. Every time his teams have exited the playoffs early, he was a non-factor.
yes that, and Hedo and Rashard played out of their minds
Black Mamba
Member
He did. His numbers were pretty insane in that series. Problem wasn't the team's offense. problem lied in the fact that Dwight destroyed their bigs who were way too slow or small and that Lebron could only guard Hedo or Lewis, but not both. The hedo-lewis pnr was a huge mismatch for Cleveland.
He had a great game 7 vs Boston in 2008. He sucked in the rest of the series, but played hard. Boston's defense was superb that season.
He has had clutch moments. No one remembers that magical 3pt buzzer beater in the 09 ECF. No one really talks about him in the 2011 ECF against the bulls. But in both cases he's followed it up with duds. In game 6 of the 09 ECF James dropped 25 good, but the lowest of his games in that playoff series. We know how game 6 of the 2011 finals turned out. And let's not even bring up that unbelievable Celtics-Cavaliers playoffseries in 2010.
By the way that 09 ECF was one of the better one's in recent years. Two young stars trading games, and having huge, massive games at that. Really great series and that Lebron-Dwight rivalry would have been awesome to see live on. Not with superfriends but just them playing hard as hell with what they got.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I'm not arguing he didn't show up in those games/series. He didn't.
And hey, thanks for responding to my post with nothing besides those games. Thank you for ignoring all of his other playoff games in your post (92 GAMES).
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Kareem saw massive decreases in his shooting percentage (over 10% in some cases) from the regular season to the playoffs in 1972, 1973, and 1978...
I didn't ignore them. I am just pointing out that they don't matter in the playoffs.
He put up stats on the Wizards three times, an extremely young Bulls team and a washed up Detroit team? Who gives a fuck? If that's your argument for Lebron being a player in the playoffs, then you've already lost it.
Superstars are judged by how they fare against the best. Simple as that. If you don't understand that, then you shouldn't bother watching the playoffs. Stick to the regular season.
Man does anyone even have a record of those series? How old are you?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
...Yes, all of the games are on record and some are available to see on YouTube. Shit, even Larry Bird had some terrible playoff series and if you want to get more modern, no one can forget David Robinson's failings other than when discussing LeBron and how he is much worse than the top 20 players ever who never had bad playoff series.
Imagine if he can't. With an all nba all star, and you still can't win in a lockout year? He'd be the biggest bust ever.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
OKC will take down the Heat. With Westbrook winning MVP.
Even more recent would be Dirk. He was the guy who was never going to win the title, including some awful awful playoff losses, until he actually won of it course.
Even more recent would be Dirk. He was the guy who was never going to win the title, including some awful awful playoff losses, until he actually won of it course.
I wouldn't say bust but yeah he'll be known for a while as that guy. Charles barkley still takes occasional crap for his lack of one. I could see him eventually becoming crazy because of it like that one dude in that steven king miniseries
Dirk's only blemish in his playoff career was 2007 versus Golden State. It's a terrible comparison.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
First, I was just showing his averages. He's had great games/series against great teams as well. Second, someone already pointed out that he's had some big games and hit big shots, and you basically swatted it away and said it doesn't count.
I don't think LeBron has been at his best in the finals, no. What I do think is that things will average out and he will play very well when he gets there, whether that be this year or in the future. If he gets enough chances, shit will happen at some point.
Yup, Bird had some bad finals as well I believe. And pretty much all of the boxscores are available in Basketball Reference.
I'm obviously arguing with someone that doesn't understand basketball and thinks sports is a series of coin-flips.
"It will average out."
Okay.
Game logs aren't available prior to 1986.
Dirk has one terrible series and several ludicrously efficient ones. Also Dirk didn't run away and team up with Tim Duncan in San Antonio, which is pretty much the equivalent of what Lebron did.
StickSoldier
Member
For the most part, Dirk has been incredible in the playoffs. The two main series that he was bad in were the Heat (1st time) and GSW. Dirk has been real good about having an increase in play come postseason.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Overall, Dirk has been one of the best playoff performers out of all of the players currently playing in the NBA. His numbers are ridiculous. He typically plays better in the playoffs than he does during the regular season.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Funny enough, basketball, along with a lot of other sports, is basically a weighted RNG (thanks xkcd). If you don't want to buy into statistical ideas, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.
He had unreal numbers but if you watched the games he shit the bed down the stretch every game. Turnovers and bad decision after bad decision.
Its a classic example of the numbers not telling the story. He gave his team a chance to win every night but he also threw the game away in 3 losses.
Black Mamba
Member
lol
You're the one not buying into some very basic statistical ideas that I have presented to you. Mainly, that Lebron has never ever ever ever ever ever produced such terrible streaks during the regular season like he has in the playoffs that I pointed out earlier. That goes beyond the law of averages.
Also, tell me, when's Raymond Felton going to start shooting 60FG% and 50% from three to even out his regular season averages? I'm still waiting.
If you honestly think sports, or even just basketball, is nothing but a series of numbers, then you're wrong. I do believe in statistics to a certain degree, but often times they mean fuck-all in such a complex and nuances sport like basketball.
You are completely dismissing the human element in all of this. And to ignore the human element in basketball and in Lebron's playoff's performances is ludicrous.
He's one of four guys to average 25 and 10 in the playoffs for their career. And that's with a TS% of 58%. That's better than his career regular season efficiency.
StickSoldier
Member
You wanna talk about coasting in the regular season, that's what Dirk does mighty well. It's like he's a completely different player once the playoffs start.
Black Mamba
Member
Comparing Lebron playing the same good defensive team 3 or 6 times in a row is not the same as Lebron playing a random 3-6 teams in a row during the NBA season.
It's so easy to demonstrate Lebron checks out when games matter. Not sure why such a silly streak must be established. It's like when ESPN says "1st left handed player in 35 years to have X points, Y assists, Z rebounds while playing between 33 and 35 minutes"
It's so easy to demonstrate Lebron checks out when games matter. Not sure why such a silly streak must be established. It's like when ESPN says "1st left handed player in 35 years to have X points, Y assists, Z rebounds while playing between 33 and 35 minutes"
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I used to come from your end completely. Really. I still think stats don't tell the whole story. But at the same time, I've slowly moved into a more stats based direction. What I've come to think (this is just me) is that a lot of the human element stuff just ends up not mattering much. There's a much better way to put this than I'm putting it....But yeah.
Its probably the fact that the blog I frequent uses numbers a ton...There are a lot of smart statisticians on there....And really, things can be reduced to numbers to a point. Offense is fairly predictive. Defense not so much. But offensive contributions (WS) are pretty highly correlated with winning (high r^2). I'm not an expert at all and I don't understand all of the nuances yet, but I've argued with enough of these guys to know that they know their shit, and this stuff works.
I think that the numbers give us a good idea of what's going on, actually, maybe even better sometimes than what we're processing while watching games. It removes the human element, yes, but it also removes our emotional judgement of the situation.
I really went off tangent in all of that, but it all comes back to the same thing. If you don't buy into stats, and would rather use the eye test, there's no discussion to be had. I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine--we're using completely different thought processes here.
Red Blaster
Member
Emptiest 40 ppg ever. He went to the line something like 18 times a game during that series.
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