SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Yup.
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Marvel's The Avengers |OT| (Dir. Joss Whedon) [Spoilers unmarked]
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Yup.
Just saw it for the first time. Not sure why everyone was so hyped about it, just another transformers-esque big-budget blockbuster with explosions and bad quips. No real character motivations, story or structure, just things getting knocked into each other with occasional explosions.
Choppasmith
Member
It really pays to see the previous films because you could say the same thing about Return of the Jedi if you didn't see the previous movies.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
One really shouldn't be required to watch 7 or 8 films to inform the motivations of one film.
Choppasmith
Member
There's five, but I find you really need to only watch three (Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America) to get the full "depth" of Avengers with Hawkeye and Widow having the weakest "motivation" and development. My analogy still stands.
That's all there really is to it. It's a beautiful looking action movie with a few good jokes.
This is serial fiction. Assuming you're even interested in the first place, The Avengers is incredibly rewarding for viewers of the previous five films. This is how it works for these films so there's no point in complaining if you're not going to bother trying to keep up. The season finale of your favorite TV show wouldn't mean much to you if you hadn't been watching it up until that point. This is the same kind of thing. Either you're invested in it or you're not.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I've seen all the preceding films and I don't think it's as rewarding as you would like me to believe. And feature films are a very different beast to television, so that is kind of a ridiculous comparison. The point is that nobody in The Avengers really had an arc to speak of - but that is to be expected when you shove six main characters alongside each other and have them fight for screen time.
The Avengers was fun enough for the action and quips, but I can completely understand why somebody coming to it fresh would feel no investment in the film and I wouldn't put the blame on them for not watching a bunch of other standalone films first. There is no anchor for the audience in The Avengers. I honestly thought the natural anchor would have been Captain America for the first film - given that he needed to learn how to lead this group. Guess not.
Fun movie, fun to watch, great action, excellent humor an effects. Not sure why so many people enjoy over-thinking this whole thing.
"I didn't understand their motivations...". Did you care?
I remember there was a lot of talk pre-release about how the movie was really going to be Cap's story. Him learning to lead the team and live in the 21st century and all that. Someone even said it was almost "Captain America 2" if I recall. Of course, they ended up changing things (though the deleted scenes show some parts stayed in the script). I enjoy the movie as is, but I still would like to have seen that version of the script too.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
These particular films are serials, that's my point. These films are not like all other films, obviously. Why is that going over your head? The last good sequel to do this was The Avengers. Yeah, I think it's good.
This series of films is unlike any other. And to answer your question, perhaps Harry Potter.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
kill bill 2
until the whole bloody affair is confirmed.
Ghostbusters 2
until the whole bloody affair is confirmed.
Ghostbusters 2
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Kill Bill is one story divided into two films. Try again.
Ghostbusters 2 is wrong. It re-introduces each character's arc at the start of the story as it should.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
See you put criteria like "good" and it can't all be a single or collection of stories split into more than one movie.
Don't know.
Don't know.
I think I've seen all of them, the only tolerable one was the first Iron Man. I mostly meant the bad guys and the SHIELD/government.
Umm, yes? I can watch sweet explosions on youtube as well, it would be nice to know who's blowing up who and why in an actual full-length movie.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I think it's more that the poster didn't care because the film relied entirely on having seen the other films for that attachment.
The answers you seek are actually in the movie.
The Other: The Chitauri grow restless.
Loki: Let them gird themselves. I will lead them into glorious battle.
The Other: Battle? Against the meager might of Earth?
Loki: Glorious, not lengthy. If your force is as formidable as you claim.
The Other: You question us? You question HIM? He, who put the scepter in your hand, who gave you ancient knowledge and new purpose when you were cast out, defeated?
Loki: I was a king, the rightful king of Asgard! Betrayed!
The Other: Your ambition is little, born of childish need. We look beyond the Earth to greater worlds the Tesseract will unveil.
Loki: You don't have the Tesseract yet. I don't threaten, but until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.
The Other: You will have your war, Asgardian. If you fail, if the Tesseract is kept from us, there will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where he can not find you. You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain.
-----
Thor: Where is the Tesseract?
Loki: [laughs] I missed you too.
Thor: Do I look to be in a gaming mood?
Loki: Oh, you should thank me. With the Bifrost gone, how much dark energy did the Allfather have to muster to conjure you here, your precious Earth?
Thor: I thought you dead.
Loki: Did you mourn?
Thor: We all did. Our father...
Loki: YOUR father! He DID tell you my true parentage, did he not?
Thor: We were raised together, we played together, we fought together. Do you remember none of that?
Loki: I remember a shadow, living in the shade of your greatness. I remember you tossing me into an abyss, I who was and should be king!
Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the Earth is under MY protection, Loki!
Loki: [laughs] And you're doing a marvelous job with that! The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you ideally threat. I mean to rule them. And why should I not?
Thor: You think yourself above them?
Loki: Well, yes.
Thor: Then you miss the truth of ruling, brother. A throne would suit you ill.
-----
Steve Rogers: Thor, what's his play?
Thor: He has an army, called the Chitauri. They're not of Asgard or any world known. He means to lead them against your people. They will win him the Earth. In return, I suspect, for the Tesseract.
Steve Rogers: An army. From outer space.
bigboss370
Member
wait, what? i don't know if you went in with a pessimistic mindset, but the movie definitely had structure and flow. it had a story, albeit not the greatest, but there was a concise story there.
the scene where nick fury talks with cap, and then cap says "you should've left it [the cube] in the ocean" transitions nicely into Ironman being underwater. or when phil tells Widow that she's 'got the big guy' neatly flows into the india scene.
bad quips... are you kidding me? "clench up Legolas" was brilliant, can't believe it was actually in there. "he's adopted" was also hilarious, among others.
motivations? they're superheroes, it's what they do, they help people (sans widow and hawk). Banner is there because his science expertise with gamma rays may help. Cap is a soldier who follows orders, and Stark would probably show up to fight the aliens by himself.
character archs? Ironman went from a showoff that lights up a building in his name, to doing an act of selflessness because of what happened to Phil. Banner came to accept that maybe his power could be used to do good, and its not necessary to always hide it.
------------------
anyhow, the one problem i still do have with the movie, is the Chitauri force. Was that one ship, and those numbers of aliens, actually supposed to take over the whole earth?
He didn't say he didn't "care", he said he didn't "know". He actually said he didn't care because he didn't know. Which is impossible because the movie spells it out quite plainly which is what people are saying. So the argument doesn't even make any sense.
All pretty good points though I think you're forgetting there were a shit load of aliens. That and they probably didn't expect to be nuked. Technically their plan was sound since they left the mother ship on the other side of the rift which was the key the defeating them. Only one or two of the avengers could make it there with relative ease.
Tony just fucked it all up.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I know plenty of people who have only watched Avengers of the series and absolutely loved it. Some of them even went back and watched a few of the other Marvel movies because they loved it so much.
Having to watch previous Marvel films is not a requirement, but it certainly helps.
Hilarious.
First, a feature can absolutely be a serial. Just look at the Star Wars Trilogy, which was in part an homage to the serials George Lucas grew up watching in the theater, like Flash Gordon. The text scroll is lifted straight from the old serials. That's how the audience would catch up on the story.
Is the Marvel Cinematic Universe a serial? It certainly is borrowing aspects of them. They built a story over the course of the earlier movies that paid off in the Avengers. Whether you appreciated that payoff is irrelevant to its existence.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
no it didnt, tesseract, alien invasion, need response team, ...respond, "im always angry" *BAM* best punch of 2012 on film. The people that could be re introduced were, Black Widow, Iron Man, Capt America, and Hulk. They clearly show where they are post solo film in the first 40 or so mins of Avengers. The only one that really relied on their solo film was Thor, he just flew into the scene. Otherwise the whole...first part of the damn movie is just the characters, sure theres MORE if you watched the solo films and take it in as one piece. But i kinda got the gist of it all without thinking back to the solo movies while watching. The Tessaract is explained 3 times, first with Fury asking Cap about it/flashbacks, then with BW bringing Banner up to speed, then when Thor was on the heli carrier. The only thing that is left out is Heimdall and Odin can see this shit, so thats how Thor knows Lokis plan and about the Chitauri. Loki's motivation is he's a perpetual god of mischief , he hates that Odin never told him who he was, he believes he never had a chance to rule even though he was Odin's son, yes he chose earth to slight Thor and Odin. And yes this is explained as well, and YES odin is watching it all.
I can see what youre saying but...1.4 billion dollars later, i guess the gamble paid off and it didnt bother many. The bare minimum needed for an ensemble action flick is there, but if you watched the precursors, then you got a fuller experience , i think that kinda works for both viewers. Clearly the geeks like us in this thread are gonna be enthusiast about it, but people like my sister who never read a comic in her life also crave seeing the avengers because she enjoyed it, i was surprised to say the least.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
No. Thor's presence is explained.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
Enlighten me, I don't remember.
Odin mustered up a lot of Dark Energy to teleport Thor to Earth. Loki mentions it.
What we can infer is that it is a time consuming and tiring process to send even 1 individual using Dark Energy and that the Bifrost was created for easier travel.
Now that they have the Tesseract back, they'll probably use it to create a new Bifrost or something equivalent.
Messypandas
Member
Thor showing up in Avengers lickity-split took a complete shit on whatever gravitas the ending of Thor tried to muster.
Not exactly. The Dark Energy method of transporting is a one-way trip. They probably figured that if he ever went back he'd be stuck so it was a big deal to lose the Bifrost.
Fortunately, the Tesseract showed up and with it they could teleport back.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
I thought Thor's movie said something like once the portal was broken travel would be practically impossible. They made a big deal about it in that movie, which is why it made no sense to see him get to Earth so easily in Avengers. I don't care about the specifics of the comics regarding travel rules, the fact it was a one way trip, was part of the emotional impact of the movie. If you remove that tension, then the movie suffers. So these movies aren't/can't be serials in the way some here mentioned. More like little teases here and there.
Avenger creates it's own rules. It's not something like Star Wars as much as some of you want it to be. It's its own movie, and a mediocre one at that.
Avenger creates it's own rules. It's not something like Star Wars as much as some of you want it to be. It's its own movie, and a mediocre one at that.
Vermillion
Banned
Thor's movie also said there were other ways to get back to Earth.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
Then that is counterproductive and lessens the impact of the ending.
*****
Edit: I was checking Thor's ending. Shit, I hate these post credits scenes. I didn't know Thor had one.
Not really. It just means Loki knows something Thor and Odin don't. This was made apparent by the fact that he got the Jotuns into Asgard at the beginning without Heimdall knowing. It doesn't diminish the ending so much as it augments Loki's abilities. He's a formidable villain.
Doesn't Loki mention there are other means of traveling?
Yup, he says it pretty plainly.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
If there's any series that throws it's own internal logic to hell, it's Star Wars.
We're just gonna pretend Luke and Leia didn't make out before they decided to make them twins? Like Leia saying she she remembered her mother, while Luke didn't, only for Leia to die as soon as she pushes them out in EP3. Like C3-PO and R2 meeting for the first time in two different fucking movies.
Star Wars is fucking terrible aside from the visual effects innovations. Always has been.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
That's because ROTJ is the lesser film of the trilogy, and the prequels don't matter. Everybody knows they're shit.
The only ones that truly matter are the first two, ESB in particular. ESB is miles ahead in quality when compared to something like Avengers, it's not even debatable. No matter how shitty the subsequent movies are, the first two aren't hurt by it. Or are you going to tell me that the one guy dying in Avengers is as impactful as Solo being frozen? That scene alone shits all over the Avengers.
I was just coming to say this. Scene from Thor which explains it.
Heimdall: Tell me, Loki, how did you lead the Jotuns into Asgard?
Loki: Do you think the Bifrost is the only way in and out of this realm? There are passages between worlds to which even you, with all your gifts, are blind. But I have need of them no longer, now that I am king. And I say, for your act of treason, you are relieved of your duties as gatekeeper and no longer citizen of Asgard!
You can tell you've lost the argument because you admit to ignoring large swaths of the fiction of Star Wars, while also admitting you didn't pay full attention to the fiction of Thor/The Avengers, while also trying to change the subject from internal logic and consistency to the "impact" of death scenes, the latter of which is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Also, Phil Coulson would beat the shit out of Han Solo. That you couldn't even remember his name despite him appearing in four movies tells me how little attention you were paying. It's cool if you like Star Wars better than Avengers, but fuck Star Wars.
Also, Phil Coulson would beat the shit out of Han Solo. That you couldn't even remember his name despite him appearing in four movies tells me how little attention you were paying. It's cool if you like Star Wars better than Avengers, but fuck Star Wars.
Discotheque
Banned
whoa whoa whoa. Are we talking physically here like some Goku/Superman shit? Because I dunno then, Harrison Ford just looked like a tougher dude.
But seriously I think it's god damn impossible to argue that the whack agent from the Marvel movies is even a percentile as memorable as Han Solo. That guy's personality just runs circles around Coulson's generic ass. Even if you hate Star Wars.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
You didn't get my point. You're saying all Star Wars are terrible, and that is just bs. Like I said no matter how much Lucas hurt his own logic in the following films, the first two are still great and not affected by that. Yes I ignore them because they're terrible movies.
ST and ESB are great movies, Avengers is not (it's entertaining at best).
I couldn't remember his name because of shitty character development. I remember smaller characters from other movies because they are well developed/introduced or are at least interesting. Phil is a crap character.
Aggrotek
Member
In terms of pure cinematic quality and innovation, Star Wars wins. It was all new. A new universe to explore and learn from. The Avengers existed before Whedon came into the picture. I did really enjoy the Avengers. Solid effects, soundtrack, acting, and ect. But I really don't think you can compare the two movies directly.
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