GhostWriter24
Member
Wat?
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Man charged with murder after tricking girlfriend into taking abortion drug.
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Wat?
Sorry, I posted and left for class. Why do people bring up the 38 week abortion? Where does this actually happen legally in the US without being a medical necessity?
TheFightingFish
Member
It's not an option. I mentioned it because you said that you don't factor development or viability into your opinion. It's not something that happens now, but as far as I can follow your logic you would not have an issue with it, is that the case?
GAFers arguing about legal definitions and such doesn't mean we think this is setting legal precedent.
Well I was referring to the people who said they thought it set a bad legal precedent, but okay.
Honestly, we can throw around lots of scenarios that I may find personally distasteful, but I will still stand by my belief that I don't think any other person should have control over a woman's body (or a man's for that matter). I personally would hope that a woman that far along in a known pregnancy would have made a decision for or against long before it could be viable outside of the womb. I'm not thrilled over abortions. I would prefer that a number of other things took place instead of a woman being unhappily pregnant. My earlier comment wasn't about my views on abortion; they were about a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. Nothing else really.
speculawyer
Member
Yeah, I really don't think murder is an appropriate charge. He's committed a crime but murder is stretching it too far.
Anticitizen One
Banned
He should be punished but I dunno life in prison and murder charge seems somewhat extreme
Meus Renaissance
Member
This is a remarkable case because it transcends the conventional narratives surrounding abortion by shaking the credibility of the argument that personal choice be the defining factor for constituting personhood. Irrespective of where you stand on abortion, I imagine we can all agree that it is unacceptable to acknowledge, and celebrate, new life when the pregnancy is convenient and then to dismiss it with semantics when it is inconvenient.
If you are pro-life, and support a mother's right to decide to not acknowledge personhood then you should be equally supportive of a mother who chooses to acknowledge her baby. In this case, it would logically mean you support her claim of murder whilst you wrestle with the moral implications
If you are pro-life, and support a mother's right to decide to not acknowledge personhood then you should be equally supportive of a mother who chooses to acknowledge her baby. In this case, it would logically mean you support her claim of murder whilst you wrestle with the moral implications
Winterfang
Banned
But it directly cause the dead of the child to be . I mean even if you are a hardcore pro-Choice person and you see fetuses with the same value as a gallbladder, this situation goes beyond abortion. This was a murder in my opinion, Abortion was the method.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
It's murder when the pregnancy is a threat to the mother's health?
Or there is another way to describe this. murder doesn't have to be the default option.
Petit Melon
Member
Cytotec is used to induce labor in general (i.e. full term babies or late pre-term (36 weeks) and including fetal demises). It's normally applied directly onto the cervix though. Calling it "abortion drug" bothers me. That's not what it is.
Anyway, unless the baby was over the state's limit for abortions, I don't see how he can be charged for murder. Now the forging his Father's signature and mislabeling medication? That should see some jail time. That's a crime.
Anyway, unless the baby was over the state's limit for abortions, I don't see how he can be charged for murder. Now the forging his Father's signature and mislabeling medication? That should see some jail time. That's a crime.
Freezasaurus
Member
If she was planning to keep the baby, then he most certainly should be charged with murder. What a piece of shit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally pro-choice. But like the article indicated, she was tricked.
Byakuya769
Member
Why?
Don't commit the crime if you can't do the time?
Anyways, abortion is only legal if the mother has consented or the parents have if she's underage; therefore, it was murder. The law does need to be changed to give man more power on the final say. Not in the way that if he doesn't want the child and she does she still has to abort. What I mean is if he wants the child, the girl can not abort otherwise, it will be murder; unless the pregnancy threatens her life or health. It's just too difficult....to get it all right.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Hmm has there ever been a case of a father seeking charges against a woman for aborting a pregnancy without his knowledge?
It feels good because we know deep down that abortion is wrong, straight up. You can get lost in the details on what constitutes as a human life "living" etc. But in the end sometimes feels are right.
May not be legally murder but he should still be put away for the rest of his life for being a piece of shit. A crime like this is far too serious to forgive. I don't even know what label you'd give the crime though. Assault isn't enough. Some new type of charge should be invented for this scenario that carries the same penalties as first degree murder but doesn't apply to mothers who willingly abort their babies.
Despicable act and a very complicated situation.
I know I'm incredibly lttp here, but this made me laugh.
I know I'm incredibly lttp here, but this made me laugh.
Some people aren't thinking of the precedent which could be set by successfully charging someone with murder over what's technically an abortion. It's a slippery slope. Unless you're going to charge women with murder now for doing the same thing, because we can't have double standards like this. Ideally he should be charged and punished severely for the act of deception, but not with murder as that potentially paves the way for abortion being sentenced as murder in circumstances in which we believe it is a woman's right to choose.
Cognitive dissonance for pro-choice campaigners.
Though arguably, the father of the child-to-be terminated the foetus rather than murdered the unborn child.
Pro-choice has never been about pro-abortion, so it was always campaigned as difficult terrain to walk over.
I doubt fathers will ever get legal rights regarding foetuses -even though half the genetic material is theirs. When a mother terminates his child-to-be, with him wanting the child, he has to put up or shut up. The fact that it affects her health more than his, allows me to at least tip the balance in her favour.
Justice is a difficult thing. I feel this is murder though. In the traditional child destruction sense.
Though arguably, the father of the child-to-be terminated the foetus rather than murdered the unborn child.
Pro-choice has never been about pro-abortion, so it was always campaigned as difficult terrain to walk over.
I doubt fathers will ever get legal rights regarding foetuses -even though half the genetic material is theirs. When a mother terminates his child-to-be, with him wanting the child, he has to put up or shut up. The fact that it affects her health more than his, allows me to at least tip the balance in her favour.
Justice is a difficult thing. I feel this is murder though. In the traditional child destruction sense.
Well, bearing 100% of the burden of the actual pregnancy and birthing will do that.
Yup, so much for equal rights. Men have no reproductive rights at all..
Personally, I feel like this is a case of a guy killing his kid so that he doesn't have to pay child support. If he's viewing it through the lens of paternal responsibilities, then the state response does not conflict with his intent or state of mind.
Perhaps "Poisoning with intent to kill" would be a more appropriate charge though... not sure if you can append a "with intent to kill" component to a poisoning charge that would increase the sentencing and severity of classification of a typical poisoning charge.
9 months pregnancy vs 18 years child support and if the baby is aborted , she doesnt have any pregnancy burden
Yeah. And this is a REAL SLIPPERY SLOPE. Not those dumb ones people used to ban gay marriage. To have this be considered murder would be bad news for all women who want a choice.
Sure, but why similar to murder charges? Because he's taking away a child's life?
Because the fetus has a life?
That must be protected?
Because the damage to one of the parties is huge (the mother to be). Not because of any equivalency of the crime itself, but equivalencey of seriousness. You may not have murdered anyone, but you still took away someones child.
Abortion is only legal when the mother has consented. I don't know why so many people are skipping this fact.
Damage is big but there is no equivelance of seriousness because the damage in murder is even bigger. People lose a person dear to them and also the person it self suffers from a loss of its own life, while in this case its the fetus.
Of course it is not as bad as murder but it is pretty bad and elicits appropriate punishment.
Late term (specifically like this case where it is not even the mother that forces the abortion) abortions should have different treatment since then we do assign different value to the fetus.
I disagree. Having been deprived of loved ones, it is pretty fucking significant. Significant enough to warrant a long jail sentence to me. Is it as big a crime as murder? Probably not. But that is pretty irrelevant, lots of things that are not as big a crime as murder have significant sentences associated with them. The reason for that is that there is only so much jail you can impose on someone, and the threshold for deserving a lot of jail is a lot lower than murder.
I agree that it is pretty fucking significant. I am saying murder is worse because in addition to that we also count the person it self which loses its own life. It is not a disagreement over it being significant and needing appropriate punishment, just putting it bellow murder.
Yeah, fine. It still deserves a very long prison sentence.
If you can't handle the consequences of your actions you shouldn't be taking risks.
timetokill
Banned
Wouldn't that also be an argument that abortion should be illegal overall? Like if women can't handle the consequences of their actions they shouldn't be taking risks. If they don't want to risk carrying a baby to term they shouldn't be having sex. Anytime you have sex, protection or not, you have to accept the fact that you may end up pregnant.
Obviously wouldn't apply in cases of rape though.
tuna on toast
Banned
If something's not considered a human being, then you can't murder it.
If it wasn't for the guy, it would have been a human being no?
This is going to be a unique case. At what point is a fetus considered a person? Some say conception, some say the first trimester, others believe in close to birth etc.
Some people wanting to ban sex selective abortion have this same problem. You can't say it's a fetus and not a person, but then also say because it's determined to be a female fetus, you want to abort it etc.
Just sad all around. It should be grievous assualt and bodily harm however.
ryutaro's mama
Member
SkyNet seemed to think so.
That's the Nazi line of logic. The jews were subhuman rats etc. so it was ok to kill them.
Human Life is human life. You can debate the merits of that life or its existence but doesn't make it less human
Not really a valid one, because abortion isn't illegal, while forcing someone to get an abortion against their will is.
Byakuya769
Member
That's a dodge if I've ever seen one. You're discussing what constitutes murder and why? So the question posed is asking why one action is murder and another isn't, and if the latter is only state sanctioned murder, then why is it justifiable.
I'm pro choice, btw. But a lot of people are wanting their cake and eating it too in here.
tuna on toast
Banned
Legally, it wasn't a human being when it was killed, so it can't be murder.
Murder is the killing of a human being. If a fetus isn't considered a human being under the law, killing it can't be considered murder.
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