By "a lot" you probably mean a dozen or so people on message boards.
A lot = more than two.
By "a lot" you probably mean a dozen or so people on message boards.
So since it's a man who is the director and it's not a real life woman's choice on the character's attire, there is a different set of rules that apply to what is and isn't acceptable attire?Once again, why do you fail to see the difference between a real-life woman dressing according to her own choice, and the objectified portrayal of women in gaming? Apparently this is really fucking difficult to grasp because many of us have been trying to explain it 'til we're blue in the face, but I'm really about to give up because I don't know how it can be made clearer.
Hey dude, you're talking to Mr. Mechanics. I'm right there with you (although I thought TLoU was excellent by any measure). I can still point out Kojima's silliness for what it is, though. And like I said, not like it affects my enjoyment of the game. I roll my eyes at this shit and carry on. MGSV looks like it's improving the gameplay in every way, and cutting back on the cutscenes that were the bane of MGS4, so I'm all in.I don't care if video games have shitty storytelling. They're games. I play games for their mechanics and systems, not their stories. If I want a good story I'll watch a movie or TV show or read a book. And if I want a good story with thoughtfully developed characters I won't play The Last of Us, which is the equivalent of a mid-tier movie at best, I'll watch The Wire or The Sopranos or I'll read.
I'm saying that's explained by sex-positive people usually having a value in their sexuality both towards other and themselves so it's not out of place as it fits with the character.
That's an extremely interesting theory, actually. It would explain why her... uh, pantyhose is all torn up... like she just escaped someone clawing at her.Ha. Funny how almost all the women in Kojima's games are both "sex-positive" and look like supermodels. Kojima must just have been lucky to find all these characters, it can't be that he just like tits and guns.
Anyway, I think your line of guessing in your earlier post is probably right on the money - the taboo Kojima was talking about very likely could be rape and sexual torture, and the character has just escaped in her sex-slave outfit. She could even be "quiet" because her tongue has been torn out to prevent her calling for help. You are completely, utterly wrong, though, if you think that people will forgive Kojima for creating this character if that is the backstory he makes up for her. They will fucking crucify him for exploitation.
Hey dude, you're talking to Mr. Mechanics. I'm right there with you (although I thought TLoU was excellent by any measure). I can still point out Kojima's silliness for what it is, though. And like I said, not like it affects my enjoyment of the game. I roll my eyes at this shit and carry on. MGSV looks like it's improving the gameplay in every way, and cutting back on the cutscenes that were the bane of MGS4, so I'm all in.
Ha. Funny how almost all the women in Kojima's games are both "sex-positive" and look like supermodels. Kojima must just have been lucky to find all these characters, it can't be that he just like tits and guns.
There is a difference between getting shit the way you want while making an excuse for it and making something one way because it adds deeper emotion to a character and helps build the narrative. I think that's what you are missing and anyone who bothers to insult him if it does turn out as we assume.Anyway, I think your line of guessing in your earlier post is probably right on the money - the taboo Kojima was talking about very likely could be rape and sexual torture, and the character has just escaped in her sex-slave outfit. She could even be "quiet" because her tongue has been torn out to prevent her calling for help. You are completely, utterly wrong, though, if you think that people will forgive Kojima for creating this character if that is the backstory he makes up for her. They will fucking crucify him for exploitation.
Dude, that's perfectly common for sex-positive girls to do! Just like how it's common for flirtatious girls to wear lab coats with their shirts open and no bras underneath when they're out and about in public. Everyone knows flirty, sexually self-assured girls show their tits to everyone! Totally not the influence of a horny dude at work here! Just being sex-positive!It doesn't fucking matter what ridiculous in-world justification it has, and it doesn't matter that he already played his hand with the original fanservice quote, it's still fiction written by someone. If Kojima wrote a story that had her gratuitously spread her arsehole and moan orgasmically to deceive her enemies reach true mastery of the battlefield would you still be defending its justification and excusing the author? No? Then why this?
Dude, that's perfectly common for sex-positive girls to do!
So since it's a man who is the director and it's not a real life woman's choice on the character's attire, there is a different set of rules that apply to what is and isn't acceptable attire?
It doesn't fucking matter what ridiculous in-world justification it has, and it doesn't matter that he already played his hand with the original fanservice quote, it's still fiction written by someone. If Kojima wrote a story that had her gratuitously spread her arsehole and moan orgasmically to deceive her enemies reach true mastery of the battlefield would you still be defending its justification and excusing the author? No? Then why this?
You present yourself as a pleasant person and I don't intend to be otherwise myself. But what you're saying seems divorced from reality.Come on, man, I'm being intellectually honest and respectful to you. No need for backhanded insults.
So since it's a man who is the director and it's not a real life woman's choice on the character's attire, there is a different set of rules that apply to what is and isn't acceptable attire?
Pretty big fallacy here. That isn't what is happening here, so why bring it up?
Since your whole argument hinges on that statement, then it invalidates the whole thing.
Pretty big fallacy here. That isn't what is happening here, so why bring it up?
Since your entire argument hinges on that statement, then it invalidates the whole thing.
So since it's a man who is the director and it's not a real life woman's choice on the character's attire, there is a different set of rules that apply to what is and isn't acceptable attire?
This thread is going placesI keep thinking about Funchameleon's Gaping Butthole character.
GAPING BUTTHOLE: "Snake, you and I aren't that different, you know. When I was a little girl, my family was killed by mercenaries during my country's civil war. They killed my family, but they overlooked me, since I was hiding in the bathroom. They piled the corpses of my family outside the doors and windows to our house, trapping me inside. I survived for a while on what little food we had left... but soon the only thing left to consume... was prune juice. And I drank it all, Snake... I drank it all... And I was so filled with fear, with rage, with hate, I became bloated with blackness, and well... I pooped, Snake. I pooped and I pooped and I pooped and I pooped. Now my butthole is a sprawling portal to the darkness of my heart... the shit-stain of hate."
Finally. Games as art."... I pooped, Snake. I pooped and I pooped and I pooped and I pooped. Now my butthole is a sprawling portal to the darkness of my heart... the shit-stain of hate."
I believe one of her comments in MGS 1 is something to the kin of 'If you make it back to the mission, you can play doctor on me'. More or less.
Pretty big fallacy here. That isn't what is happening here, so why bring it up?
Since your entire argument hinges on that statement, then it invalidates the whole thing.
Maybe it's more figurative, like she's a mute, so she's quiet in that respect, but she makes a loud fashion statement.No doubt Kojima has thought of a new batshit insane reason why she's almost naked out in the desert.
I can't wait.
Is this about Chromie in WoW? While that was originally an accident the fact they retconned it after years was super disappointing. If it's happened elsewhere I'd be both fascinated and depressed to know about it.Plus, I have faith that if Kojima did go that route, he wouldn't later go back on her status of being trans. *evil look in a certain company's direction*
It is not proof she is one way but people open about sex and sexuality often hold their sexuality in value. Many express it in ways to show off not ONLY to others but to themselves. Others don't. I'm not saying it's a defining character trait that is proven to her character, I'm just saying it doesn't stand out from the character as there are hints about it throughout her dialogue. She may be this way as the game hints at it so it exists not only be more sexually appealing to a male audience but to capitalize on her own personality. You can also take this as "making sure you sexualize fitting characters", which if they are fitting then they have a bit of characterization which is only reaffirmed by the outfit. You might like this description better.But what you're saying seems divorced from reality. A girl being flirtatious, as per the come-ons you quoted from MGS1, does NOT create one modicum of believability for this manner of dress.
And he clearly likes "Escape from New York," which iirc has a woman who dresses like Eva from MGS3. The whole open-shirt shtick is probably a throwback to that film, Kojima being a film aficionado and all. Either that, or he just, well, likes tits. Nothing deeper.
Wow, a lot of people in here are now expecting Quiet to be trans!
I'm not sure that's the conclusion I'd jump to, but you know, I'd be down for that. Kojima might be crazy and over-the-top and I might not agree with all of his character designs, but I have the feeling that if he did a character that was trans, he wouldn't make that a negative trait of her. She'd have complexity to her character beyond just that, and even if the design we're seeing here is kind of questionable, I think there'd be a real chance to have a trans character that I wouldn't be ashamed of being introduced to a wide variety of players.
Plus, I have faith that if Kojima did go that route, he wouldn't later go back on her status of being trans. *evil look in a certain company's direction*
Oh is it? Because I thought all the brouhaha was about Quiet being scantily clad, having nothing on her torso except for a bikini top. As for her bodily dimensions, she's not some made-up unrealistic Barbie, the character is basically a digital representation of an actress named Stefanie Joosten:You're comparing apples and oranges. The crux of this debate isn't about the female form being offensive, it's about the sexual objectification of women in media. Just like how the debate over whether or not Barbie dolls represent a healthy body ideal for little girls has nothing to do with actual thin, blonde women.
That's the hollywood.the character is basically a digital representation of an actress named Stefanie Joosten:
?That's the hollywood.
Naomi doesn't know what a bra is or how to button up a shirt. Her flirty comments are not nearly strong enough or prevalent enough to make her choice of dress feel like anything other than pandering on the part of Kojima.It is not proof she is one way but people open about sex and sexuality often hold their sexuality in value. Many express it in ways to show off not ONLY to others but to themselves. Others don't. I'm not saying it's a defining character trait that is proven to her character, I'm just saying it doesn't stand out from the character as there are hints about it throughout her dialogue. She may be this way as the game hints at it so it exists not only be more sexually appealing to a male audience but to capitalize on her own personality. You can also take this as "making sure you sexualize fitting characters", which if they are fitting then they have a bit of characterization which is only reaffirmed by the outfit. You might like this description better.
We should really just agree to disagree.
I'd have to take an aspirin before heading on the internet if it's discovered she's a sexual assault victim and her victim status is to be shown through the outfit after all this crap about her being demeaning and stuff. I don't know if Neogaf could handle it... or Kotaku for that matter.Only Kojima could say something like this and not have me roll my eyes. I believe him.
She will be more interesting then anything all these hyper-sensitive devs and moralists could ever come up with.
I'll extend this olive branch: Characterization is up for interpretation. So everyone will bring their own view, and there's room for more than one view. It's all good.casabolg said:That is something we can agree on. Glad we could have the back and forth though.
Kojima bringing the goods! Trolling the internet like a boss. Making nerds look pathetic.
But if Quiet is trans, then she's still a woman and it changes nothing.
Is this about Chromie in WoW? While that was originally an accident the fact they retconned it after years was super disappointing. If it's happened elsewhere I'd be both fascinated and depressed to know about it.
Oh is it? Because I thought all the brouhaha was about Quiet being scantily clad, having nothing on her torso except for a bikini top. As for her bodily dimensions, she's not some made-up unrealistic Barbie, the character is basically a digital representation of an actress named Stefanie Joosten:
Quite literally. It seems he doesn't wear anything under that spray-on catsuit.
Honestly, I feel Kojima should follow the example of his character and stop talking so openly about these topics. I appreciate that side of him, but in this day and age, there will be too many people in the press and gaming community willing to tear him apart for anything that might raise an eyebrow.
This bothers me because I don't want him to make any changes or modifications to his vision and design for this game due to a public outcry. I want undiluted, uncompromising madness straight from the horses mouth.
yeah this game dev shaming is really getting out of control right now.Honestly, I feel Kojima should follow the example of his character and stop talking so openly about these topics. I appreciate that side of him, but in this day and age, there will be too many people in the press and gaming community willing to tear him apart for anything that might raise an eyebrow.
This bothers me because I don't want him to make any changes or modifications to his vision and design for this game due to a public outcry. I want undiluted, uncompromising madness straight from the horses mouth.
Kojima may show signs of a boob-man, but his love of ass transcends gender and age, or so I concluded from staring up Old Snake's ass-crack as I crept around in MGS4.Quite literally. It seems he doesn't wear anything under that spraypaint catsuit.