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Kojima responds to the criticism of Quiet in MGSV
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A lot = more than two.
polyh3dron
Banned
So since it's a man who is the director and it's not a real life woman's choice on the character's attire, there is a different set of rules that apply to what is and isn't acceptable attire?
Hey dude, you're talking to Mr. Mechanics. I'm right there with you (although I thought TLoU was excellent by any measure). I can still point out Kojima's silliness for what it is, though. And like I said, not like it affects my enjoyment of the game. I roll my eyes at this shit and carry on. MGSV looks like it's improving the gameplay in every way, and cutting back on the cutscenes that were the bane of MGS4, so I'm all in.
Ha. Funny how almost all the women in Kojima's games are both "sex-positive" and look like supermodels. Kojima must just have been lucky to find all these characters, it can't be that he just like tits and guns.
Anyway, I think your line of guessing in your earlier post is probably right on the money - the taboo Kojima was talking about very likely could be rape and sexual torture, and the character has just escaped in her sex-slave outfit. She could even be "quiet" because her tongue has been torn out to prevent her calling for help. You are completely, utterly wrong, though, if you think that people will forgive Kojima for creating this character if that is the backstory he makes up for her. They will fucking crucify him for exploitation.
Shipwrecked
Neo Member
That's an extremely interesting theory, actually. It would explain why her... uh, pantyhose is all torn up... like she just escaped someone clawing at her.
And while I don't think that backstory should be off the table, a certain crowd would go apeshit if it happened.
Would be fun to watch the reactions.
Trent Strong
Banned
My bad. And, yeah, I thought The Last of Us had great gameplay too.
Funchameleon
Banned
It doesn't fucking matter what ridiculous in-world justification it has, and it doesn't matter that he already played his hand with the original fanservice quote, it's still fiction written by someone. If Kojima wrote a story that had her gratuitously spread her arsehole and moan orgasmically to deceive her enemies reach true mastery of the battlefield would you still be defending its justification and excusing the author? No? Then why this?
Would you really like to debate that sex-positivity is bad in any way? It's good for both men and women.
There is a difference between getting shit the way you want while making an excuse for it and making something one way because it adds deeper emotion to a character and helps build the narrative. I think that's what you are missing and anyone who bothers to insult him if it does turn out as we assume.
It would be like blaming The Boss opening her suit on wanting to sexualizing her and ignoring the whole major narrative purpose of her scar because "oh my god, sideboobs! you perv!"
Also, doubting the whole tongue thing. Thinking she was just tortured and undressed and her trauma made her mute. She's rescued or breaks out in Afghanistan at some point and wears that garb while still in the Afghan countryside. They may have a narrative rush her. She wants to leave faster than she wants to do anything else.
Dude, that's perfectly common for sex-positive girls to do! Just like how it's common for flirtatious girls to wear lab coats with their shirts open and no bras underneath when they're out and about in public. Everyone knows flirty, sexually self-assured girls show their tits to everyone! Totally not the influence of a horny dude at work here! Just being sex-positive!
Btw, I totally want Kojima to make the character you described now. Give her a cool codename like... Gaping Butthole, or something.
Come on, man, I'm being intellectually honest and respectful to you. No need for backhanded insults.
Flatline
Banned
And if there's a different set of rules who creates these rules? The male creator should obviously not be in charge of his own project, so... will a team of feminists dictate that?
And what is exactly considered revealing and thus sexualization? Different cultures even within the same country have completely different standards. After almost 90 years will a new swimsuit/feminist police be created to measure how long a skirt is? Is cleavage acceptable or banned for all male game creators? So many questions...
Pretty big fallacy here. That isn't what is happening here, so why bring it up?
Since your entire argument hinges on that statement, then it invalidates the whole thing.
You present yourself as a pleasant person and I don't intend to be otherwise myself. But what you're saying seems divorced from reality.
A girl being flirtatious, as per the come-ons you quoted from MGS1, does NOT create one modicum of believability for this manner of dress. I do not take Kojima's storytelling ability seriously enough to think for one instant that he chose that design element for any other reason than, "It looks cool." He's a very visual-oriented person; he likes his iconography. And he clearly likes "Escape from New York," which iirc has a woman who dresses like Eva from MGS3. Which brings us to Naomi and her breezy boobs. The whole open-shirt shtick is probably a throwback to "Escape from New York," Kojima being a film aficionado and all. Either that, or he just likes tits. Nothing deeper.
And again -- that's fine. It's silly, but fine.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think we tend to get way too bogged down in these discussions trying to clarify a specific ruleset when clearly not everyone is on the same page. The way I've always understood it is that when talking about the choices made by a creator -- particularly someone not of the same gender -- simply being able to cite the existence of people that dress/behave similarly isn't a bulletproof cover. That's not to say the design is bad, or that the person who designed it is bad. But when talking about a bigger issue*, concocting a certain fiction that explains potentially dubious choices isn't going to satisfy critics for what I feel are pretty obvious reasons. At the end of the day, a creator is still free to make the kind of character they want, but criticism isn't mitigated simply because others like the creation or because freedom of speech is protected.
*Of course, the real problems in these discussions requires that people be on the same page to begin with in terms of whether or not there is a larger problem. When there's disagreement at this fundamental level, it becomes clear why we have giant threads that largely result in derision and people on either side of the issue largely spinning their wheels attempting to articulate points that probably won't make believers of the person on the other side of the divide.
Funchameleon
Banned
Woah talk about owned. True logic-based beings like yourself can spot a fallacy a mile away, huh? Thank god hyperbole is now dead thanks to wikipedia warriors like yourself.
faceless007
Member
Exploring the boundaries of an argument with a hypothetical isn't a logical fallacy. It can be done well or poorly, but there's nothing inherently fallacious about it.
mr teaspoon
Member
You're comparing apples and oranges. The crux of this debate isn't about the female form being offensive, it's about the sexual objectification of women in media. Just like how the debate over whether or not Barbie dolls represent a healthy body ideal for little girls has nothing to do with actual thin, blonde women.
I keep thinking about Funchameleon's Gaping Butthole character.
GAPING BUTTHOLE: "Snake, you and I aren't that different, you know. When I was a little girl, my family was killed by mercenaries during my country's civil war. They killed my family, but they overlooked me, since I was hiding in the bathroom. They piled the corpses of my family outside the doors and windows to our house, trapping me inside. I survived for a while on what little food we had left... but soon the only thing left to consume... was prune juice. And I drank it all, Snake... I drank it all... And I was so filled with fear, with rage, with hate, I became bloated with blackness, and well... I pooped, Snake. I pooped and I pooped and I pooped and I pooped. Now my butthole is a sprawling portal to the darkness of my heart... the shit-stain of hate."
GAPING BUTTHOLE: "Snake, you and I aren't that different, you know. When I was a little girl, my family was killed by mercenaries during my country's civil war. They killed my family, but they overlooked me, since I was hiding in the bathroom. They piled the corpses of my family outside the doors and windows to our house, trapping me inside. I survived for a while on what little food we had left... but soon the only thing left to consume... was prune juice. And I drank it all, Snake... I drank it all... And I was so filled with fear, with rage, with hate, I became bloated with blackness, and well... I pooped, Snake. I pooped and I pooped and I pooped and I pooped. Now my butthole is a sprawling portal to the darkness of my heart... the shit-stain of hate."
immortal-joe
Member
Honestly, I feel Kojima should follow the example of his character and stop talking so openly about these topics. I appreciate that side of him, but in this day and age, there will be too many people in the press and gaming community willing to tear him apart for anything that might raise an eyebrow.
This bothers me because I don't want him to make any changes or modifications to his vision and design for this game due to a public outcry. I want undiluted, uncompromising madness straight from the horses mouth.
This bothers me because I don't want him to make any changes or modifications to his vision and design for this game due to a public outcry. I want undiluted, uncompromising madness straight from the horses mouth.
Hesemonni
Banned
This thread is going places
Funchameleon
Banned
Finally. Games as art.
Secret Fawful
Member
Kojima, what the fuck does that even mean?
Wow, a lot of people in here are now expecting Quiet to be trans!
I'm not sure that's the conclusion I'd jump to, but you know, I'd be down for that. Kojima might be crazy and over-the-top and I might not agree with all of his character designs, but I have the feeling that if he did a character that was trans, he wouldn't make that a negative trait of her. She'd have complexity to her character beyond just that, and even if the design we're seeing here is kind of questionable, I think there'd be a real chance to have a trans character that I wouldn't be ashamed of being introduced to a wide variety of players.
Plus, I have faith that if Kojima did go that route, he wouldn't later go back on her status of being trans. *evil look in a certain company's direction*
I'm not sure that's the conclusion I'd jump to, but you know, I'd be down for that. Kojima might be crazy and over-the-top and I might not agree with all of his character designs, but I have the feeling that if he did a character that was trans, he wouldn't make that a negative trait of her. She'd have complexity to her character beyond just that, and even if the design we're seeing here is kind of questionable, I think there'd be a real chance to have a trans character that I wouldn't be ashamed of being introduced to a wide variety of players.
Plus, I have faith that if Kojima did go that route, he wouldn't later go back on her status of being trans. *evil look in a certain company's direction*
encephalon
Member
Flirting is the equivalent of her MGS4 outfit now? Lol.
That's not a fallacy, it's a thought experiment.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
No doubt Kojima has thought of a new batshit insane reason why she's almost naked out in the desert.
I can't wait.
I can't wait.
Maybe it's more figurative, like she's a mute, so she's quiet in that respect, but she makes a loud fashion statement.
"Fashion... Can one make fashion statements... on the battlefield?"
Funchameleon
Banned
Is this about Chromie in WoW? While that was originally an accident the fact they retconned it after years was super disappointing. If it's happened elsewhere I'd be both fascinated and depressed to know about it.
It is not proof she is one way but people open about sex and sexuality often hold their sexuality in value. Many express it in ways to show off not ONLY to others but to themselves. Others don't. I'm not saying it's a defining character trait that is proven to her character, I'm just saying it doesn't stand out from the character as there are hints about it throughout her dialogue. She may be this way as the game hints at it so it exists not only be more sexually appealing to a male audience but to capitalize on her own personality. You can also take this as "making sure you sexualize fitting characters", which if they are fitting then they have a bit of characterization which is only reaffirmed by the outfit. You might like this description better.
It's both a callback to the original design and a invocation of the aesthetic's affect onto the character. You can't have that sort of outfit on other characters because it doesn't imply that character's characteristics correctly while EVA is to reflect similar characteristics as whoever that original EfNY character is.
encephalon
Member
But if Quiet is trans, then she's still a woman and it changes nothing.
polyh3dron
Banned
Oh is it? Because I thought all the brouhaha was about Quiet being scantily clad, having nothing on her torso except for a bikini top. As for her bodily dimensions, she's not some made-up unrealistic Barbie, the character is basically a digital representation of an actress named Stefanie Joosten:
That's the hollywood.
polyh3dron
Banned
Naomi doesn't know what a bra is or how to button up a shirt. Her flirty comments are not nearly strong enough or prevalent enough to make her choice of dress feel like anything other than pandering on the part of Kojima.
We should really just agree to disagree, because I -do- respect you, believe it or not (you're nice, which is refreshing on the Internet!), and I don't want to come off disrespectful by running in circles and becoming more blunt with each lap. Naomi's design just seems incongruent with her personality as it's depicted in the game. The level of flirting she shows in previous games doesn't smack of "so sexual I gotta go commando" in MGS4.
On a side note, thinking of Naomi makes me think of Otacon's "crying" over Skype in MGS4. Gah, I'm cringing all over again.
That is something we can agree on. Glad we could have the back and forth though.'
I'd have to take an aspirin before heading on the internet if it's discovered she's a sexual assault victim and her victim status is to be shown through the outfit after all this crap about her being demeaning and stuff. I don't know if Neogaf could handle it... or Kotaku for that matter.
I'll extend this olive branch: Characterization is up for interpretation. So everyone will bring their own view, and there's room for more than one view. It's all good.casabolg said:
Now I get to the fun part: Anyone have a high-res image of Quiet's face?
She's cuuuuuuuuute.
It changes something, to me, if she's trans and the game makes that clear as part of the plot. (Not saying that will be what happens, just going off of the speculation a lot of people in here seem to be doing.) It's hard to get a trans character into a game in a way that both finds a reason to point out their status and portrays the character as something other than a freak/joke, and as I said before, I think Kojima is a person that I could actually see making that happen.
I've never heard of Chromie, so now I'll have to do some research! No, I'm talking about Poison.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
Quiet looking pretty damn good. Glad Kojima isn't changing her for a vocal minority.
Oh is it? Because I thought all the brouhaha was about Quiet being scantily clad, having nothing on her torso except for a bikini top. As for her bodily dimensions, she's not some made-up unrealistic Barbie, the character is basically a digital representation of an actress named Stefanie Joosten:
Quiet and her actress DO NOT share body dimensions.
The actress has a very thin and flat frame actually. Quiet certainly does not. You can see this in other shots (as well as this one).
Nikodemos
Member
Quite literally. It seems he doesn't wear anything under that spray-on catsuit.
Mahadev
Member
Kojima can say whatever he wants, this is a very vocal but tiny minority that is being ignored by the general public. Following PETA's path hardcore feminists have become the butt of the joke since everything offends them and everything is a conspiracy against women by the evil phallocracy. PAX is bigger than ever despite feminist efforts to boycott and smear them as sexual predators and sexists because they made a joke.
Let's not try to silence devs because a fringe group is stirring up shit again, I really want his honest opinion about this stuff.
polyh3dron
Banned
yeah this game dev shaming is really getting out of control right now.
Kojima may show signs of a boob-man, but his love of ass transcends gender and age, or so I concluded from staring up Old Snake's ass-crack as I crept around in MGS4.
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