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A critique of Destiny 2's issues (power, loot, end-game) by one of the top players
- Thread starter The à¹ÛBronx
- Start date
The loot factor is the killer for me. Other loot games there always felt a chance you'd get that really cool super rare weapon with stats that made it op as fuck and turned you into a badass.
Destiny is just shallow with everybody running the same sets that everyone has managed to get in under a month
Destiny is just shallow with everybody running the same sets that everyone has managed to get in under a month
Strangelove77
Member
Bungie's leaning entirely on dlc to brush away the criticisms. They know even the harshest players will shut the fuck up for a few weeks once their next dlc comes out.
They don't fix anything, they just patch with dlc.
They don't fix anything, they just patch with dlc.
benicillin
Banned
I get what he's saying, but I also like that you can hit 305 through weekly missions without worrying too much and the loot has set rolls so it's not impossible to get "the good gun." I'm not a professional Destiny player, I'm not a streamer, I have increasingly less hours to spend on the game every week and mostly use it as a scifi chatroom with friends.
There's a lot of stuff I miss from Destiny 1, especially things that the live team added after the "main" Destiny team moved on to start work on Destiny 2, but the absurd difficulty of leveling and random loot are not among them.
There's a lot of stuff I miss from Destiny 1, especially things that the live team added after the "main" Destiny team moved on to start work on Destiny 2, but the absurd difficulty of leveling and random loot are not among them.
Slammin_Hammon
Member
It's also worth noting that even though a lot of variety and fun has been stripped in favor of balance the game is still terribly balanced despite everything Bungie did to make it easier for them to balance.
I largely agree. The game feels like it has hooks for or is built to support endgame/repeatable content, but it's not actually there.
It's significantly easier to level up; at 131 hours played I have all 3 characters over 300 having only done the Raid once and not even completing it, and I haven't even done all of the Milestones the last 3 weeks. But there's nothing meaningful to do with that level. And at this point I already have nearly every exotic, and I have literally every worthwhile Legendary weapon and armor I want; I shred every single legendary I get immediately after checking it's PL to make sure it's not going to be a 1 point upgrade over something I already have. I don't even look at what the item is anymore because there's no more random rolls, and while I'm ok with random rolls being gone that needs to come along with there being a LOT more guns/rolls then there are right now. Barring there being a lot more guns to aim for there needs to be some sort of reforging/reroll option of some kind. Armor are in an even worse spot with largely useless rolls (especially with elementals being gone from D1) outside of legendary mods arguably, and you put those on yourself.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the game being much more casual per se, but it's a hard turn from D1, and it also feels like it wasn't exactly their intention. Additionally they presumably want to sell people Bright Engrams, and people not playing or playing super casual aren't going to buy those. Two weeks in a row now I'm getting on all 3 characters, doing the Flashpoint and maybe personal Clan XP Milestones, and getting off for the week. And that's fine! But it feels like a missed opportunity.
I also agree that you never really feel powerful in D2 like you did in D1. For the love of all that is holy they need to separate PvP and PvE.
Pretty much this. At the end of D1 and now in D2 I feel like they are always a few choices away from making the game into something incredible that would be my main/fulltime game year-round, but they never quite get there.
It's significantly easier to level up; at 131 hours played I have all 3 characters over 300 having only done the Raid once and not even completing it, and I haven't even done all of the Milestones the last 3 weeks. But there's nothing meaningful to do with that level. And at this point I already have nearly every exotic, and I have literally every worthwhile Legendary weapon and armor I want; I shred every single legendary I get immediately after checking it's PL to make sure it's not going to be a 1 point upgrade over something I already have. I don't even look at what the item is anymore because there's no more random rolls, and while I'm ok with random rolls being gone that needs to come along with there being a LOT more guns/rolls then there are right now. Barring there being a lot more guns to aim for there needs to be some sort of reforging/reroll option of some kind. Armor are in an even worse spot with largely useless rolls (especially with elementals being gone from D1) outside of legendary mods arguably, and you put those on yourself.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the game being much more casual per se, but it's a hard turn from D1, and it also feels like it wasn't exactly their intention. Additionally they presumably want to sell people Bright Engrams, and people not playing or playing super casual aren't going to buy those. Two weeks in a row now I'm getting on all 3 characters, doing the Flashpoint and maybe personal Clan XP Milestones, and getting off for the week. And that's fine! But it feels like a missed opportunity.
I also agree that you never really feel powerful in D2 like you did in D1. For the love of all that is holy they need to separate PvP and PvE.
Pretty much this. At the end of D1 and now in D2 I feel like they are always a few choices away from making the game into something incredible that would be my main/fulltime game year-round, but they never quite get there.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
Agree with this. The game is an improvement on D1 for me.
Razzmatazzer
Member
Good post, agree with most of it. As a huge D1 fan, definitely a bummer to see what D2 has become. The potential is definitely there, so here's hoping Bungie can make things right!
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
I think the crux of the issue is that there's literally no reason to after 280. You're just doing the same things you have been doing to bump that number higher, which affords you nothing.
I feel the post is quite clear in why that wouldn't be the case with the system he was proposing. Rather it would give you an actual means to work towards a god roll gun and that be an accomplishment for the player over and above picking one up randomly.
Flying Toaster
Member
I still love logging on and playing with friends but the game has now become my friends and I playing Destiny as a reason to play a game together. I am curious as to what the solution will be as I still like the game but I do agree with a lot of the "cooling off" period analysis pieces coming out now.
As long as PVP and PVE are linked, we'll never get cool OP gear.
hipsterbodega
Neo Member
The decreased importance of the end game for leveling is a double edged sword. D1 didn't really give much opportunity for solo or slow players to level. You basically had to do Nightfall, Trials or the Raid, or you got stuck under a glass ceiling. D2 offers limited opportunities for growth that aren't tied to building a fireteam --and as someone who can barely scrape together enough people for Nightfall much less the Raid, I find it to be a welcome change.
But I also see how that can also be frustrating for people who can and do play socially. It lessens the value of the endgame.
There are way too few Exotic engrams though, that's for sure. They seem to pop up more often than in D1, but because the pool is so small, I've gotten the same grenade launcher 5 times and the same pants 4 times and I'm still waiting for Hard Light to drop.
I still find the loops satisfying, and I'm not disappointed by the amount of content, but the rewards aren't as fun.
But I also see how that can also be frustrating for people who can and do play socially. It lessens the value of the endgame.
There are way too few Exotic engrams though, that's for sure. They seem to pop up more often than in D1, but because the pool is so small, I've gotten the same grenade launcher 5 times and the same pants 4 times and I'm still waiting for Hard Light to drop.
I still find the loops satisfying, and I'm not disappointed by the amount of content, but the rewards aren't as fun.
PhilipDoesMatter
Member
Do it like Diablo Bungie!
serenewarfare
Banned
Yeah, this is another casualty of "balance". Like the gear in D2 does have perks and mods that augment abilities and would usually push you towards a particular build, but the effect they have on your stats is so insignificant that it might as well not exist. Like in Diablo I can get a piece of gear that makes one of my abilities 20% more powerful, so I'd be an idiot not to use that ability. Because Bungie is so scared of imbalance, the most benefit you'll get on an ability is like 4% or 5%, at which point it's not worth changing up what you are used to.
And that's to say nothing of the fact that the build options overall are still really limited.
Some more from my experience:
- They add "Adventures" and "Lost Sectors", and then give you little reason to do them past LL 265 or so. Too bad, some were actually fun.
- They instill artificial "slow-down!" mechanics which keep you stagnated at certain light levels for that week, and try to hide it with "powerful gear" milestones, which are limited weekly. Without any explanation whatsoever for new players that can't figure out why all of a sudden they are stuck at LL 268 for days and days.
- 4 new planets! Sure, maybe technically, but calling tiny Titan and even IO a planet? Pretty disingenuous. And the farm? How many people visited that place more than twice? Maybe three times tops. Hate to say it, but it feels, once again, like the Campaign was meant to be longer.
- A beautiful, large planet like EDZ that give you absolutely no reason to explore off the beaten path. Every lost sector and region chest is marked for you, which again are not even worth doing for the crappy blues once you've reached the LL cap for that week. Forgivable perhaps in D1, but in D2? No way.
- Completely underwhelming exotics. I honestly can't think of one that really excites me in any meaningful comparable way to D1. For the most part, you can easily roll with all legendaries and not miss anything. What a sad change from D1.
- Tokens, tokens and more tokens... all giving you the same legendaries at such a lower LL than you currently have that they become useless after you've accumulated hundreds of legendary shards you will never use.
- You are then left waiting for the reset for new "milestones with powerful gear!" or farming public events over and over again hoping for an exotic engram and then hoping that engram gives you the slot item you need to increase your LL. And THEN hoping that it's significantly higher than what you already have slotted (not guaranteed). So much fun.
- A raid that while not bad, doesn't focus enough on your gun skills, but more on communication and knowing where to stand/jump. Also, not very noob-friendly where one person can wipe you. Overall, a step back from the Vault of Glass and other better D1 raids. Also, all that design and rendering time they spent in the secret chest areas of the raid that .000001% of the population will ever see would have been better spent on increasing the size of a planet like Titan, so it actually encompasses more than two tiny areas.
Totally. One of the best times of D1 was during the Age of Triumph at the end, and in a way it was great cuz everyone was 400 - it was about collecting tons of exclusive fashion pieces instead
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Bungee doesnt allow fun.
GinoFelino
Member
I bolded because it Perfectly states how I feel about this
I'd rather have a pleasant, rewarding journey with an end point like D2 than the soulcrushing everlasting grind of D1
Raven117
Member
This is a good post that I do think captures the "hardcore"(term used loosely). It just seems that Bungie didn't really want to make "OUR GAME" this go around.
As for static loot vs rolls...thats really not the point he was making. The point was that the guns we got felt like just random gun drops from D1. In other words, each gun didn't feel like it was crafted in a way that would make each one unique and special.
There are a handfull of good ones, the rest are trash tier.
The game while a ton of fun for my 80 hours over 3 characters each pushing 300 or a bit over was a great time. But Bungie really did miss the mark when it came to the endgame.
Even when you finally do get your PL up high, get the loadout you want....They really don't give you many activities to actually use it.
This may change with DLC but its doubtful.
Doesnt matter I guess. Im still in for all DLC and will play other games as well, but I never felt that obsessive spark of awesome that D1 had in which we all fell in love with.
Bungie, your stubbornness of not separating out pvp v. pve is really starting to hurt the game. You are sucking the fun out of both of them.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
I would agree honestly, if it wasn't for a feeling that the journey between 280 and 305 seems utterly redundant. You're just running the same things with the sole purpose of bumping that number up, with no other real change. Doing the same activities, with the same strength and power, until you get there.
That's my issue with it.
It really depends on what you want out of the experience.
I mean if you just want a quick endorphin blast for headshots and swapping better gear every few feet for the 10-15 hours that treadmill lasts, it'll deliver. Many are fine with that. No shortage of praise there. The honeymoon never ended.
Many of us have hopes for something beyond this shallow splurge of artificial nonsense.
It's a reversion from even the original design map in several ways and its disheartening.
ElfArmy177
Member
Can someone explain why is to fucking hard for bungie to design an mmorpg fps???
At this rate warframe is gonna be a much better destiny once it launches it's open world soon.
Dear bungie take Diablo 3, add halo, done. Make randomized dungeons for people, randomized bosses, more than 5 types of fucking enemies.. I don't understand.. there are only three god damn classes and they can't create enough loot?
Why are the zones so... Final fantasy corridor like? There is no sense of scale at all for this game whatsoever.
Maybe make higher level zones.. I dunno. I'm level 290 and frankly im so bored with the game I've gone back to warframe and rainbow six. There is absolutely no reason to level past 290. None. At all. I've already done the raid and completed it.
The issue is this game is just a single player game with some multiplayer content. It should be the other way around.
At this rate warframe is gonna be a much better destiny once it launches it's open world soon.
Dear bungie take Diablo 3, add halo, done. Make randomized dungeons for people, randomized bosses, more than 5 types of fucking enemies.. I don't understand.. there are only three god damn classes and they can't create enough loot?
Why are the zones so... Final fantasy corridor like? There is no sense of scale at all for this game whatsoever.
Maybe make higher level zones.. I dunno. I'm level 290 and frankly im so bored with the game I've gone back to warframe and rainbow six. There is absolutely no reason to level past 290. None. At all. I've already done the raid and completed it.
The issue is this game is just a single player game with some multiplayer content. It should be the other way around.
PKMNTrainer
Member
I'd consider myself a semi-casual player. I have three characters hovering around the 290 power level mark, but I don't go out of my way to do the Raid or Trials of the Nine. I spoke with my (very casual) Destiny friends about these topics after reading that post on Reddit. We largely shared the same sentiments, although maybe not 100%.
I do find it odd that Power Level is functionally an RNG content gate. It would be interesting if it let you do a little more damage in PVE instances, although I do like being balanced when playing with my friends. I want PVP to be centered on player skill, so I'm glad things like Iron Banner and Trials no longer give advantages to power level.
Personally I enjoy Destiny 2 multiplayer, more so with friends. I don't want to go back to Destiny 1 multiplayer, but I wish they encouraged mobility and supers/abilities a bit more. I do agree that balance should not be their 100% priority, but obviously there's nothing inherently wrong with striving for some balance. The negatives really begin to show in the Exotic perks, which are certainly neutered in comparison to their Destiny 1 counterparts.
Exotics feel fairly weak, with the exception of some fun/well designed situational pieces (Riskrunner, Tractor Cannon, Peacekeepers, Winter's Guile, probably more I don't know about). Personally, the legendary loot is in a decent spot for me. Yes there are absolutely weapons with worthless perks, but I'm glad I don't have to grind weapon rolls to feel competitive. Stacking up on weapon perk mods and applying them to gear I like would be a happy medium.
As far as the end game is concerned, I'm not the most qualified to speak to it. That being said, I do like there being an actual END of the game before the next content drop. The events have been coming at a good pace, but I love the feeling of completing the milestones I want to complete for the week and just dropping it to play something else or return to play casually. When events come up or my friends need help, I'll jump on and help because I enjoy the gameplay in spite of the issues.
I feel bad for the min/maxers and more hardcore fans of Destiny 1. This game is certainly not comparable to D1 year 3 in regards to end game. I do hope that they make improvements to that area of the game (sooner rather than later), but I also hope that more casual players like myself aren't left in the dust as a result.
I can only imagine that these types of decisions are incredibly difficult for Bungie to make with the diversity of player types playing this game. I don't feel like some of the constructive suggestions offered in that post would be too much to ask for. Hoping they can really take this feedback to heart and create a better experience for all players.
I do find it odd that Power Level is functionally an RNG content gate. It would be interesting if it let you do a little more damage in PVE instances, although I do like being balanced when playing with my friends. I want PVP to be centered on player skill, so I'm glad things like Iron Banner and Trials no longer give advantages to power level.
Personally I enjoy Destiny 2 multiplayer, more so with friends. I don't want to go back to Destiny 1 multiplayer, but I wish they encouraged mobility and supers/abilities a bit more. I do agree that balance should not be their 100% priority, but obviously there's nothing inherently wrong with striving for some balance. The negatives really begin to show in the Exotic perks, which are certainly neutered in comparison to their Destiny 1 counterparts.
Exotics feel fairly weak, with the exception of some fun/well designed situational pieces (Riskrunner, Tractor Cannon, Peacekeepers, Winter's Guile, probably more I don't know about). Personally, the legendary loot is in a decent spot for me. Yes there are absolutely weapons with worthless perks, but I'm glad I don't have to grind weapon rolls to feel competitive. Stacking up on weapon perk mods and applying them to gear I like would be a happy medium.
As far as the end game is concerned, I'm not the most qualified to speak to it. That being said, I do like there being an actual END of the game before the next content drop. The events have been coming at a good pace, but I love the feeling of completing the milestones I want to complete for the week and just dropping it to play something else or return to play casually. When events come up or my friends need help, I'll jump on and help because I enjoy the gameplay in spite of the issues.
I feel bad for the min/maxers and more hardcore fans of Destiny 1. This game is certainly not comparable to D1 year 3 in regards to end game. I do hope that they make improvements to that area of the game (sooner rather than later), but I also hope that more casual players like myself aren't left in the dust as a result.
I can only imagine that these types of decisions are incredibly difficult for Bungie to make with the diversity of player types playing this game. I don't feel like some of the constructive suggestions offered in that post would be too much to ask for. Hoping they can really take this feedback to heart and create a better experience for all players.
Hell, I'd even settle for a halfway decent competitive pvp setup. Halo ranks would be amazing. Even better would be seasons and ranks, with season-exclusive cosmetic rewards. The only think keeping me playing crucible is DestinyTracker. Which is a shame, because to be Destiny pvp has always been incredible.
Inb4 someone complains about the teamshot meta or MIDA. I barely use MIDA because it really isn't the best gun by far. And "teamshot" really just means smart coordinated positioning and engagements. No more solo pubstomps.
Inb4 someone complains about the teamshot meta or MIDA. I barely use MIDA because it really isn't the best gun by far. And "teamshot" really just means smart coordinated positioning and engagements. No more solo pubstomps.
ethomaz
Banned
The loot system being less random helps this too... the drops are common and not rare anymore because if you already have a drop it will try to give something new and not random.
That way everybody has everything really fast.
The cool playtime where you have TLW, GHorn, Hawkmoon, etc and others not... ended.
franklyshankly
Member
The answer to all of this is clearly that they simply don't have the bandwidth to create enough content to fill out a true MMO with the level of quality Destiny has.
Still anxiously awaiting the PC release myself, but every time I read one of these threads I lose a bit more of my hype. It seems the game really was turned into a 60 hour play it once then put it down shooter rather than what Destiny used to be.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
As someone who truly hated Destiny, I have no problems with the core loop of Destiny 2. It's fun to play, the guns feel better (to me) and the world design is very much an improvement. I actually like Power Level. It's taking me a long time to level up, since I don't play that obsessively. When I max my Warlock, I am looking forward to making two new characters and maxing them too.
Except Warframe isn't going fully open world; its just launching one area (2.25km x 2.25km) thats open
Yeah I'm pumped for the Warframe update but they're apples and oranges for sure!
The main complaint here is that D2 is an incredible game with some slight errors that prevent it from being the BEST game (only slightly kidding). If you are sleeping on it then it's your loss.
RedSparrows
Member
100%. With the caveat that looking back in regret of D1's 'superior' systems is dodgy af, because those were also deeply flawed.
Gun collecting is not a fun endgame, end of.
Gun collecting is not a fun endgame, end of.
It's crazy to me, really. Destiny 1 was a complete mess for its first few months thanks to the insane amount of grind along with a lack of content. Destiny 2 has much more content, a far more manageable "grind" while getting rid of things like "God rolls" which only existed to artificially extend the "content."
It has a number of issues, don't get me wrong. But I don't think Bungie can win either way here, to be honest.
Vanilla as in... launch up until House of Wolves?
Yeah, that's never coming back because Bungie realized it was awful.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
It's worth noting that I'm the polar opposite of a 'hater'. I love the Destiny universe, find a lot of great things in Destiny 2 but the road to the end (and the lack of end-game) has left me a bit lost once I've ticked all my checkboxes for that week.
I'll still be playing it and enjoying it through to Y3 in all likelihood, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit disappointed and felt like the post in the OP just hit the bell for what I've found so far.
The environment design and surrounding lore is still some of the best I've seen in the genre and the game feels great to play. I love my clan, I love running the raid. I just wish there was more to do.
Speaking personally my main issues are:
I'll still be playing it and enjoying it through to Y3 in all likelihood, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit disappointed and felt like the post in the OP just hit the bell for what I've found so far.
The environment design and surrounding lore is still some of the best I've seen in the genre and the game feels great to play. I love my clan, I love running the raid. I just wish there was more to do.
Speaking personally my main issues are:
- The separation between activity and reward
- No more dead ghosts - resulting in very little drive to explore the gorgeous environments
- The lack of additional experiences between 280 and 305
- No heroic strike playlist with relevant rewards
Rexatality
Member
Then that's something that needs to be undone, because frankly their fanatical love for PvE/PvP parity is hurting Destiny more than helping it.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
Actually you should be hyped. It seems that Destiny 1 fans, hate 2. But look at me. I hated 1 but I love 2.
Flying Toaster
Member
I never understood this mad mission for PVE/PVP parity. It leads to salty tears on both sides of the fence.
The Jazz Cabbage Master
Member
The game started sooooooooooooooooooooo strong for me. Now, I feel I have less incentive than Destiny 1 to jump in each day.
I keep getting the same gear
I can't replay the Campaign missions at my leisure
Can't play specific Strikes
Can't scale content to my level
Everything feels too easy outside of Nightfall tier stuff
I'm just kinda... bored.
I honestly figured with that 1000 person dev team the loot and content would be so much more than this...
I keep getting the same gear
I can't replay the Campaign missions at my leisure
Can't play specific Strikes
Can't scale content to my level
Everything feels too easy outside of Nightfall tier stuff
I'm just kinda... bored.
I honestly figured with that 1000 person dev team the loot and content would be so much more than this...
franklyshankly
Member
I personally think the issue here is one of audience. The people who hated vanilla Destiny and the grind left.
The people who stayed and played for three years are largely people who actually liked those parts of the game.
Now D2 appears (again I'm waiting on PC release so I don't have first hand experience) and is catered towards the people who hated the first game rather than those who continued to play it.
Case in point.
ethomaz
Banned
Everything in vanilla Destiny was memorable... everybody remembers its guns, gears, places, raid bosses, etc.
What do you remember after that? Maybe Black Hammer in Crota and nothing else.
Raven117
Member
I think its a little Stockholm syndrome for the simple fact that there just isn't a reason to play Destiny 2 as much as Destiny 1. It wasn't THE answer but it was AN answer.
They made a great game for the majority of people that will play it. The climb through the campaign and even up to 265 is a nice, fairly smooth, curve. Even the bump to around 280 isn't all that bad. For once character, this takes about 30-40 hours. Its enough to do a raid, do a nightfall, and call it quits.
MOST of the people playing the game will never even see the raid. This is for folks smack dab in the middle of the bell curve.
They made such a great game to play...yet don't give the people who want to play it over and over any reason to other than to just enjoy the gameplay. (Most folks like to work towards something).
RandomHopeInc
Member
Funnily this is the reason I like Destiny 2, instead of the first, because I hate copious amounts of RNG. I think they were clearly going for the casual, like me, it made it an easier game to digest.
Razzmatazzer
Member
Actually D2 was built for people like you, not the fans, so if anything you should check it out.