i work nights. i'll be taking BART across the bay sunday night and i'll be wanting to go back monday morning... it's going to be very interesting (and annoying) waiting for this to pan out. i'm planning my route just in case... but the 'backup' route is going to add an hour... oh that and it will probably be fucking crowded because of this BS
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Bay Area Commute Horror: BART strike looming
- Thread starter EleventhDoctor
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i work nights. i'll be taking BART across the bay sunday night and i'll be wanting to go back monday morning... it's going to be very interesting (and annoying) waiting for this to pan out. i'm planning my route just in case... but the 'backup' route is going to add an hour... oh that and it will probably be fucking crowded because of this BS
You Are Viewtiful
Member
B-b-but Unions gave us the weekend! Now they should be able to fuck anyone over as they see fit!
Do you agree with unpaid overtime, unpaid internships, no sick days, no guaranteed vacation time, 60 hour work weeks, 30 hour work weeks so you don't get health insurance etc. etc. I can go on forever? Labour abuse happens to this day. If you hate unions you can always go to Alabama or Michigan.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Do you agree with unpaid overtime, unpaid internships, no sick days, no guaranteed vacation time, 60 hour work weeks, 30 hour work weeks so you don't get health insurance etc. etc. I can go on forever? Labour abuse happens to this day. If you hate unions you can always go to Alabama or Michigan.
Yes you're right-labour abuse does happen-but so does Union abuse. Why is this so difficult for everyone to admit?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Yes you're right-labour abuse does happen-but so does Union abuse. Why is this so difficult for everyone to admit?
What union abuse? Looking at the article, hundreds of workers get assaulted each year and the reply by management is "it's safe enough". The dismissive attitude is all I need to know who is the problem party in this negotiation. Strikes only happen as a last resort, no one WANTS a strike, to live on $10 a day strike pay. Strikes happen when talks break down completely.
jamesinclair
Banned
I can cite numerous examples where private public transit existed with minimal subsidies and ran so much smoother than the government cluster fucks.
-BMT ran profitably for 20 years while forced to keep the fare at a nickel as NYC tried to starve it. Adjust that for inflation and realize it operated 100% on farebox revenue.
.
Youre seriously comparing transit services in the early 1900s to today?
You really dont see why that comparison is very, very useless?
Open Source
Banned
What union abuse? Looking at the article, hundreds of workers get assaulted each year and the reply by management is "it's safe enough". The dismissive attitude is all I need to know who is the problem party in this negotiation. Strikes only happen as a last resort, no one WANTS a strike, to live on $10 a day strike pay. Strikes happen when talks break down completely.
Could be that both sides are "problem parties." Likely, in fact.
Cornballer
Member
Updates as of late last night/early this morning. Not much progress being made, lots of looming.
- SF Gate: BART strike deadline looms as talks lose momentum
- San Jose Mercury News: BART strike looms as governor asked to intervene
- SF Gate: BART strike deadline looms as talks lose momentum
- San Jose Mercury News: BART strike looms as governor asked to intervene
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I don't think so, not in this case. If management doesn't bring a counter offer there is no bargaining.Could be that both sides are "problem parties." Likely, in fact.
Cornballer
Member
By the way, the SJ Merc article has some updated figures on salaries:
An analysis by this newspaper of BART payroll data shows the average BART employee -- union and nonunion -- made about $83,157 in gross pay in 2012, up from $80,588 in 2010. Including benefits and other perks, the average cost for BART for each employee was $116,309 last year, up from $110,017 in 2010. Both figures are the highest in the Bay Area among big transit agencies -- more than San Francisco Muni, Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority and AC Transit.
Last year, 938 BART employees, including managers and executives, made at least $100,000 in gross pay, and 19 workers made at least $200,000. BART workers point to highly paid managers as the real source of the agency's rising payroll.
Employee benefits for which BART currently picks up the tab include free dental care and transit passes for all workers. But the biggest concerns for BART management are pension and health care costs. BART workers currently pay nothing toward their retirement plans and a flat $92 monthly fee toward medical coverage, regardless of how many dependents they have, a leading reason why BART's total cost per employee is the highest among Bay Area transit agencies.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
By the way, the SJ Merc article has some updated figures on salaries:
Hopefully we can hike up those fares even more to cover all these sky high salaries.
Hopefully we can hike up those fares even more to cover all these sky high salaries.
Seriously. Bay area transit prices are ridiculous especially after experiencing NY's system.
When ridership goes up, they have budget issues. When there's not enough ridership, they have budget issues. The whole system needs a do-over and use less customized parts to reduce cost.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
It is really sad that so many people have been convinced by corporations that organized labor is a 'thing of the past' and that they are full of greedy, lazy people.
People don't know how good they have it until it's gone. One only needs to look to the South, right-to-work states to see how effectively getting rid of unions can erode your working rights. The government does not care about you. They care about short-term gains in "the economy" so they can get reelected, and they are willing to make you work 6 days, 60 hours a week to have a more "productive" economy and stay buddy-buddy with their banker friends. Collective bargaining is essential to a healthy democracy and banning organized labour actually goes against free market principles.
"BART strike 'extremely likely,' union leaders say"
"Meanwhile, commuters and Bay Area transportation officials are planning for the possibility of life without BART. They're advising commuters to work from home, carpool or drive during off-peak hours, if possible. AC Transit buses are tentatively expected to provide extra service on transbay routes and to run a shuttle between downtown Oakland and San Francisco. But AC Transit officials advised their riders Saturday evening to consider alternative transportation Monday because system drivers are also in negotiations and could strike. "
If this happens I hope the shit hits the fan. We need guaranteed public transit, not this bullshit. People rely on this to survive. I know I do.
The trains are filthy, homeless people everywhere, fares are expensive compared to other major US cities, workers ridiculously overpaid for the work they put in, and they not only want a substantial raise but will hold the entire bay hostage for it... motherfuckers.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-strike-extremely-likely-union-leaders-say-4638530.php
"Meanwhile, commuters and Bay Area transportation officials are planning for the possibility of life without BART. They're advising commuters to work from home, carpool or drive during off-peak hours, if possible. AC Transit buses are tentatively expected to provide extra service on transbay routes and to run a shuttle between downtown Oakland and San Francisco. But AC Transit officials advised their riders Saturday evening to consider alternative transportation Monday because system drivers are also in negotiations and could strike. "
If this happens I hope the shit hits the fan. We need guaranteed public transit, not this bullshit. People rely on this to survive. I know I do.
The trains are filthy, homeless people everywhere, fares are expensive compared to other major US cities, workers ridiculously overpaid for the work they put in, and they not only want a substantial raise but will hold the entire bay hostage for it... motherfuckers.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-strike-extremely-likely-union-leaders-say-4638530.php
JesseEwiak
Member
As somebody who isn't in San Francisco, my grim wonder is how many game journalists go from usual San Francisco latte liberals to screaming right wingers the moment they're inconvenienced.
As somebody who isn't in San Francisco, my grim wonder is how many game journalists go from usual San Francisco latte liberals to screaming right wingers the moment they're inconvenienced.
When you don't own a car, and many of us are in that situation, it goes far beyond a mere inconvenience. If both BART and AC were to strike, it's literally cabs or nothing. Even if I thought I could afford that, there simply wouldn't be enough cabs to go around. This is an apolitical issue afaic. Yes, SF is pretty liberal... but just read the sfgate comments and see for yourself where 9 out of 10 of them stand on the matter.
JesseEwiak
Member
When you don't own a car, and many of us are in that situation, it goes far beyond a mere inconvenience. If both BART and AC were to strike, it's literally cabs or nothing. Even if I thought I could afford that, there simply wouldn't be enough cabs to go around. This is an apolitical issue afaic. Yes, SF is pretty liberal... but just read the sfgate comments and see for yourself where 9 out of 10 of them stand on the matter.
Considering half the posts on this thread are about how unions aren't needed and the usual classist, "why are people in a blue collar position being paid more than me," I don't think this can be called apolitical.
And while I feel for you, this exact situation is why the transit workers actually have leverage, unlike many workers. That's one of the benefits of unionization for the worker. I'm sure people were inconvenienced when plant workers in Detroit went on strike during the 40's or when the people picking grapes went on strike in the Southwest during the 60's.
Again you use the word inconvenience... several times. We have developed a society in urban areas where certain things are expected. Sidewalks for people to walk, Roads for people to drive, and tracks for high-speed transit. For me and others, one is as default as the other. When one is removed, it is a major setback. If a strike happens and lasts for long, I will be forced to work elsewhere. I think me having a job is more important than them getting a raise. It is apolitical.
After all these union talk, is there legal binding that require all these places currently utilizing union workers to continue to do so instead of hiring non-union workers? I'm not saying it's feasible to completely replace such large amount of workers without other issues; just wondering if there's any legal reason. For instance, with all these nursing strikes at Sutter health over the past year or so, I can't figure out why they couldn't just get rid of the nurse union and replace with the temp nurses they have to hire during strike. (I *think* the temps are not in union, not sure...)
EleventhDoctor
Banned
There are some unions that legally aren't allowed to strike-my wife is in one. Why shouldn't BART be exempt from striking?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Declaring a service essential makes it more expensive, which is why your mayor or city representative hasn't advocated for it. You should write to them.There are some unions that legally aren't allowed to strike-my wife is in one. Why shouldn't BART be exempt from striking?
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Bart & muni are run horribly. if you are from around here you would definitely not support the shitty employees that do a Crap job while milking the system
Take It from someone that takes bart from Union City to embarcadero for work the last 6 years
Absolutely. I'm all for fair wages for people that do a good job and deserve it. There is no one at BART-management or workers that deserve any kind of reward for the lackluster service. Trains are always late and flifthy and everyone has a shitty attitude.
Hmm I guess talks broke down.
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/arti...ation_and_world/doc51d09bcbdd0d5615144434.txt
I still think they'll come back to the table and negotiate something tonight.
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/arti...ation_and_world/doc51d09bcbdd0d5615144434.txt
I still think they'll come back to the table and negotiate something tonight.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Hmm I guess talks broke down.
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/arti...ation_and_world/doc51d09bcbdd0d5615144434.txt
I still think they'll come back to the table and negotiate something tonight.
According to this article the unions want 5% more over the next three years. Where did the 23% come from?
According to this article the unions want 5% more over the next three years. Where did the 23% come from?
I'm not sure. I confess I haven't paid too much attention to the developments.
Here are a couple more articles:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Gov-s-office-asks-that-SF-transit-talks-continue-4638163.php
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-strike-extremely-likely-union-leaders-say-4638530.php
EleventhDoctor
Banned
As a New Yorker, I know the pain of when the transit workers strike. Shit is no fun.
How much are the fares?
I take the train to SF from Castro Valley each day and its 9.20 each way-not including parking.
Edit: my bad, I meant that's round trip fare.
Cornballer
Member
I'd be surprised if any strike lasted more than a few days.I'm going to be in San Francisco on the 12th. What are the odds of a strike happening by then?
Isn't that the round trip cost?I take the train to SF from Castro Valley each day and its 9.20 each way-not including parking.
Jayayess1190
Member
Isn't that the round trip cost?
Yeah it is round trip.
ironichaos
Member
If you guys are going to look at the average wages of BART employees...be sure to also look at the average wages of similar workers in San Francisco so you have a more accurate perspective.
It's the most expensive city in the country. Those wages might look high to you if you live elsewhere (when I moved from MN a year and a half ago it made my jaw drop), but from the perspective of someone who now lives and works in the city, those wages don't seem that absurd. They've gotta be somewhat competitive to attract talent. This is what happens when you're competing with the likes of Facebook, Apple, Google, etc.
It's the most expensive city in the country. Those wages might look high to you if you live elsewhere (when I moved from MN a year and a half ago it made my jaw drop), but from the perspective of someone who now lives and works in the city, those wages don't seem that absurd. They've gotta be somewhat competitive to attract talent. This is what happens when you're competing with the likes of Facebook, Apple, Google, etc.
ironichaos
Member
Absolutely. I'm all for fair wages for people that do a good job and deserve it. There is no one at BART-management or workers that deserve any kind of reward for the lackluster service. Trains are always late and flifthy and everyone has a shitty attitude.
Are you mistaking BART for MUNI? I ride BART everyday. The train in the morning has always been on time; I've never once been late for work for the year and a half I've ridden it. I admit there are occasional delays in the afternoon, but those are more often than not caused by someone falling/jumping on the tracks.
The trains are tidy as well. It's just difficult to make them appear that way because the fabric seats and carpet are so stained. They just need to replace them with surfaces that don't absorb liquids/stains.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I'd be surprised if any strike lasted more than a few days.
Isn't that the round trip cost?
Yes I'm sorry-round trip
unpaid internships
Unions are one of the biggest users of the unpaid internship abuse. Funny how unionized shows like Conan and The Daily Show are all pro-union, and make use of unpaid interns to do work.
no sick days
Multiple family members have multiple weeks of vacation to take, and they're all non-union. In fact, we got more vacation time collectively now than when they DID work for a union.
60 hour work week
See first reply. If you don't work constant overtime, you'll get bullied as the union wants you to work as much as possible so they can continue to justify the hours to the company. If you don't take them, you'll just get bumped out by a more senior union member.
30 hour work weeks so you don't get health insurance
I worked at a library, all the librarians and clerks were unionized. Our position was denied the ability to join the union they were in, because it would have endangered their health insurance plan where nobody had to pay any co-pay on hospital visits. And our position was working 32 hour weeks. Most of the clerks worked 12 hours, at most. We even offered to pay dues, and were still denied entry into the union. The only difference between us and clerks is clerks could actually touch the cash register. We had to hand the cash to them and get the change from them for fee payments, etc, because the union had the rules written up that way.
Most modern unions are corrupt middlemen who don't actually protect the workers anymore, or care about them. We need to legislate the protections into law, instead of relying on a mediocre middleman to help us out. Signed, someone in a multigenerational union family that got backstabbed by unions one too many times.
There's good unions out there, but the blind trust and adoration some people have for them seems to come more from idealism than experience.
If you guys are going to look at the average wages of BART employees...be sure to also look at the average wages of similar workers in San Francisco so you have a more accurate perspective.
It's the most expensive city in the country. Those wages might look high to you if you live elsewhere (when I moved from MN a year and a half ago it made my jaw drop), but from the perspective of someone who now lives and works in the city, those wages don't seem that absurd. They've gotta be somewhat competitive to attract talent. This is what happens when you're competing with the likes of Facebook, Apple, Google, etc.
A NYC MTA bus driver get $20 per hour. BART's farebox recovery ratio is in line with NYCT. So the reason you pay more for a fair, and get far less in return is because BART has desperately increased costs.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-talks-continuing-as-strike-deadline-nears-4639593.php
Latest updates. Still no official word on a strike, but it's not looking good. Four hours till midnight.
Latest updates. Still no official word on a strike, but it's not looking good. Four hours till midnight.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I still think there's a strong chance trains will be running tomorrow morning.
The blowback is just going to be too large with a strike.
BART strike imminent - commute chaos ahead
A strike by BART workers that could paralyze the Bay Area's Monday commute grew closer late Sunday evening, when contract talks between BART and its two biggest unions broke off just hours before a planned strike deadline.
After union negotiators left the bargaining table in Oakland about 8:30 p.m., BART officials warned that a strike as of midnight appeared likely unless talks began again.
The two sides had resumed negotiations late Sunday afternoon, and reportedly had reached tentative agreement on several items. But as of press time, the two sides still appeared to be far apart on key issues of pay and benefits.
Union officials, saying BART planned no new offers Sunday, said they were returning to their union halls to prepare for a strike and wait for the transit district to change its mind. At midnight, they said, they would decide whether to walk off the job. BART trains would complete their Sunday schedules.
"We deeply regret that we have made no progress today," said Josie Mooney, a chief negotiator for Service Employees International Union Local 1021. "BART management continues to bargain in bad faith."
BART officials said they had doubled their salary offer - to 8 percent over four years - but that the unions had reduced their proposal for a 23.2 percent raise by one-half percent. They said it was the unions' turn to make a proposal.
"It's not even dark yet and the unions left for the evening," said Alicia Trost, BART spokeswoman. "BART negotiations have a tradition of going until midnight - even past midnight. We apologize to our riders. ... We're sorry they've been dragged into this labor mess."
The apparent standoff leaves commuters to puzzle out how they will get around the Bay Area without BART. Transportation officials have suggested that in the case of a strike, people who can should work at home for at least part of the day, drive during off hours and be patient if taking alternate transit, which will be as crowded as the highways.
San Francisco Bay Ferry will add boats from the East Bay, and AC Transit, in the midst of its own labor troubles, will run extra buses. AC's workers were planning to bargain until midnight. If talks failed, they said, the soonest they would strike would be Tuesday morning.
Earlier in the day, union negotiators had returned to the bargaining table after walking away a day earlier. Some carried suitcases or food and appeared to be prepared for a long night.
"We are hoping the district brings us something substantive that we feel we can take to our members so we can settle this," said Antonette Bryant, president of Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1555, which represents 945 train operators and station agents.
The other union at the table is Service Employees International Union Local 1021, which represents 1,433 mechanics, maintenance workers and professional staff. BART has three smaller unions, one that would honor picket lines and two that represent police, who are prohibited from striking.
Frustrated by a lack of progress, union bargaining teams had previously walked away from negotiations in the Kaiser Center, which houses BART headquarters, on Saturday afternoon, saying a strike was all but inevitable.
After they left the talks, BART bargainers sent a new proposal by e-mail. But union officials said they were unimpressed and weren't inclined to return to bargaining.
Talks resumed only after state Labor Secretary Marty Morgenstern called SEIU representatives to say that Gov. Jerry Brown wanted them to return to the table. Brown also told ATU officials he was rejecting their request for a 60-day cooling-off period that would delay a strike.
The key issues in the labor dispute are economic: wages, contributions to pensions and health insurance payments. Currently, BART employees, union and nonunion, make no contribution to their state pension plans and pay $92 a month for health insurance.
BART spokesman Rick Rice said the district's latest proposal offers a 2 percent annual raise, up from its initial proposal of 1 percent. The latest proposal, compared with the previous proposal, also reduces the amounts that the district would require employees to begin contributing to pensions and to pay toward health insurance premiums. Rice said the proposal would mean a raise for every union employee.
Union officials disagreed. Part of the raise BART offered in the latest proposal is contingent, they said, on factors ranging from ambitious ridership increases and sales tax revenues to reductions in the number of employees seeking Family Medical Leave Act absences. Many employees would lose money every year, union officials said.
"On the surface it looks like a raise," Bryant said. "But it's not really a raise. It certainly leaves us in the red - 3 to 4 percent lower than our wages now."
BART says it wants to reach a fair deal with its employees but that it needs relief from skyrocketing pension and health benefits. It says that while its operating budget generates a surplus, it needs to reinvest that money in modernizing and improving the system, which carries 400,000 riders on an average weekday and expects to hit 750,000 within a decade.
To accommodate that growth, it needs to raise billions to pay for its share of 1,000 new railcars, a new train maintenance facility and a new train control system.
The unions say their employees are responsible for keeping the aging system running well enough to transport more passengers than planners envisioned even four years ago.
Unionized workers have gone without raises for five years, and four years ago made $100 million in concessions to help the district when the economy was struggling. Now that BART is booming and making a surplus, it should share that with its workers, the unions say.
A typical BART station agent or train operator is paid a salary in the low $60,000 range. According to BART, they also make an average of $11,000 to $16,000 annually in overtime. The value of their benefits, the district estimates, averages an additional $50,000 a year.
Looks like there's some clarification on the average salary at least. And looks like there's definitely a strike unless something happens in the next 30 minutes.
A typical BART station agent or train operator is paid a salary in the low $60,000 range. According to BART, they also make an average of $11,000 to $16,000 annually in overtime. The value of their benefits, the district estimates, averages an additional $50,000 a year
Holy fuck, you have freaking 5%er cashiers. I would be pissed if I was a taxpayer of fare payer of Bart.
I take the train to SF from Castro Valley each day and its 9.20 each way-not including parking.
Edit: my bad, I meant that's round trip fare.
You could avoid parking by parking at the street.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
You could avoid parking by parking at the street.
Not in Castro Valley-every nearby street requires a parking permit because the residents of the neighborhoods were fed up with people clogging their street parking. If you're not at the station by 8:30-you don't get a spot.
Well it's midnight!! The strike is here-during a "heat wave" no less. Prepare for unbelievable traffic backups.
Not in Castro Valley-every nearby street requires a parking permit because the residents of the neighborhoods were fed up with people clogging their street parking. If you're not at the station by 8:30-you don't get a spot.
Well it's midnight!! The strike is here-during a "heat wave" no less. Prepare for unbelievable traffic backups.
I parked on the street at Castro Valley for more than 3 years. You just have to walk up a bit further.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I parked on the street at Castro Valley for more than 3 years. You just have to walk up a bit further.
Yeah I did too-and until recently I was taking the Hayward train in. In the last 2 years the amount of people taking BART has really skyrocketed-and parking is scarce. What's even amazing is the train at Castro Valley pulls up-only having been at Dublin and West Dublin-the doors open up and it's already packed. You know you're in for a rough commute then.
dakkumauji
Member
Man, the timing for this strike is pretty weird. Right during a 'heat wave' and on July 4th weekend. I do wonder how long this will last since I'll imagine there'll be pressure from every which side to get this resolved quickly.
Good luck everybody with this.
Good luck everybody with this.
JesseEwiak
Member
Holy fuck, you have freaking 5%er cashiers. I would be pissed if I was a taxpayer of fare payer of Bart.
If you include benefits, a lot of people are 5%ers. A $60,000 base salary shouldn't be considered insane. As far as overtime goes, either hire more people or pay people overtime, that's the choice.
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