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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

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Dr.Acula

Banned
I just hope the Conservative candidates don't spend all their time taking about O'Leary. The GoP trying to gang up on him pushed him over the top. I also don't see the Liberals attempting to prop up O'Leary as some kind of "beatable" candidate. The Dems had a weak leader in Hillary and no mandate in the house/senate, whereas Trudeau should get bumps with electoral reform and weed, and faces weak opposition while holding a strong majority.

Plus Kevin O'Leary can't speak French.
 

imBask

Banned
it's all based it all on super subjective and top level stuff

-Trudeau is going to turn people against the LPC before the elections
-I think there are lots of closet, silent conservatives in Canada
-I think the importance of his stance against french is overstated, the exposure will outweight the language. (i'm saying that as a french speaker first)
-I also think many of us are going to ride the "lol we're not as dumb as the Americans don't worry about it" wave

I don't WANT him to win by any means, i'm just predicting stuff here. I'd never vote for Trudeau in a million years but if that's what it takes to stop O'Leary I might consider it.

I don't really wanna debate those points, I might be 100% wrong, i'm just putting it out there and hope I am

just for a slice of life : this morning the french CBC radio was already super smug about O'Leary and cracking jokes about him.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
Conservatives seem to be rejecting O'Leary (https://www.reddit.com/r/metacanada/comments/5okt6y/kevin_oleary_to_enter_conservative_leadership/). With that crowd supporting Bernier, and with his boost from Quebec, it really seems like Bernier will win. But there does seem to be a lot more appetite for Leitch's ideas than I'd like to see.

Here's a good observation from that reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/metacanada/comments/5okt6y/comment/dckh3ea

steve_buscemis_teeth
Bernier Fan
•
12h

Kevin O'Leary is an open border globalist that is missing the point of why people voted for Trump. Some people just don't get it, Trump won solely because of immigration, Brexit won solely because of immigration, Le Pen is a front runner solely because of immigration etc...

People want their country back and it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with demographics
 

maharg

idspispopd
But by the same token, don't act like the same conditions that allowed Trump to be elected in the US are present here in Canada.

9 years ago Americans elected their first black president and he dragged them kicking and screaming into getting millions of uninsured Americans into having some kind of health care coverage and repealed DOMA and DADT, among other dramatic leftward shifts from Bush (domestically).

Would you have said 8 years ago the US had the right conditions for Trump? Because that's where in the timeline we are right now. Every other western country is going down this road right now and it's absurd and dangerous to think we can't be next.
 

Silexx

Member
One thing to note (and I reserve the right to be proven wrong down the road about this) is that O'Leary has not yet shown any inclination to use any of the racist dog whistle politics that Trump applied.
 

This.

Unless O'Leary changes his stance on free trade and immigration, he's not exactly following in the footsteps of the Trump movement.

Couple things though:

-O'Leary can't speak French and unless he learns in 2 years, I don't see him doing well in Quebec at all barring some Trump like miracle.

-O'Leary will be attacking progressive ideas like the carbon tax, and will be heavily promoting the oil industry etc. The focus should be to convince Canadians on why these ideas are good, and not on O'Leary's character.

-Hes said some fucked up shit like income inequality is good, MPs in low income neighborhoods need to make sure people don't get duped like with Trump.

-he'll be comparing Trudeau to Bambi and calling him soft. Liberals have 2 years to show how they're dealing with Trump. We'll see by then, if Trump is running the US into the ground.

Of course he needs to win the leadership first though. I'd rather have O'Leary than Kelly Leitch
 

imBask

Banned
kevin_wine_by_fire.gif
 
O'Leary pissed off Conservatives in Quebec with his candidacy debut on the same night as the French debate was happening without having the balls to show up for the debate.

Who will be courting Bernier supporters in Round 2 to block O'Leary?
 
I think the economy will be central to the next election campaign. Whoever the conservative leader ends up being, the campaign will most definitely be centered on being financially conservative and being the force of change to boost the Canadian economy. I don't think much else will matter to be honest. I just really hope O'Leary and Leitch are not the leader.
 

CazTGG

Member
But by the same token, don't act like the same conditions that allowed Drumpf to be elected in the US are present here in Canada.

Rob Ford was elected mayor with close to a majority of the votes (47%) in what is supposed to be the most multicultural and diverse city in all of Canada despite his history of bigotry and hailing from a wealthy family thanks to a campaign that potrayed him as the everyman who would "put a stop to the gravy train" in spite of him racking up Toronto's debt among other embarassing actions. The Reform Party became the leading right-wing party during the 90s when the right-wing vote had a split between them and the Progressive Conservatives. They campaigned on ending bilingualism, ending healthcare, had a hard stance on immigration and held anti-Quebec sentiments and attracted support from people who talked about Ontario being taken over "by the low blacks, the Hispanics". Given that we've had these successful populist "anti-elitist" movements crop up from time to time, it would be unwise to assume that our border somehow shields us from the same bigotry, apathy towards said bigotry and anger towards the current establishment isn't present across provinces and territories.

I said this in a video I made on Leitch a week or so: There are certainly obstacles that Leitch and O'Leary will need to overcome, namely their lack of fluency in French and the ranked ballot not favoring them over more moderate candidates, but that doesn't mean there aren't those same conditions in Canada. Instead of saying some variation of "that could never happen in Canada", we need to be active and start saying "we won't let this happen in Canada"!
 

Silexx

Member

I said this in a video I made on Leitch a week or so: There are certainly obstacles that Leitch and O'Leary will need to overcome, namely their lack of fluency in French and the ranked ballot not favoring them over more moderate candidates,
but that doesn't mean there aren't those same conditions in Canada. Instead of saying some variation of "that could never happen in Canada", we need to be active and start saying "we won't let this happen in Canada"!

What you describe as "obstacles" are actually more akin to "brick walls".
 
Rob Ford was elected mayor with close to a majority of the votes (47%) in what is supposed to be the most multicultural and diverse city in all of Canada despite his history of bigotry and hailing from a wealthy family thanks to a campaign that potrayed him as the everyman who would "put a stop to the gravy train" in spite of him racking up Toronto's debt among other embarassing actions.

Rob Ford also just had to waltz in and declare himself a candidate. The barriers to entering municipal politics even in a city as large as Toronto aren't even close to being the same as the barriers to entering federal politics at the highest level.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I said this in a video I made on Leitch a week or so: There are certainly obstacles that Leitch and O'Leary will need to overcome, namely their lack of fluency in French and the ranked ballot not favoring them over more moderate candidates, but that doesn't mean there aren't those same conditions in Canada. Instead of saying some variation of "that could never happen in Canada", we need to be active and start saying "we won't let this happen in Canada"!

Thankfully, because of Quebec, most lost LPC votes will probably go to the BQ instead of the CPC anyway. Harper tried the "Muslims, right?" angle and it bombed hard for him, and Canada itself is still trying to recover from a decade of Conservative rule, so the anti-establishment thing already happened.

I think the more interesting/important election will be Alberta, to see if the NDP have a chance in hell to hold government, to see if the "protest vote" phenomenon will hold.

That said, I have a friend who is considering joining the CPC just to cast a vote for someone other than Leitch.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
The fact that in Canada you have to actively go out of your way and join a political party, often, as in this case, paying to join (even if it's only like 15 bucks), is also a huge, absolutely yuuuge, difference between this leadership vote and the primaries in the United States. I don't know what the breakdown of this tiny subset of people is, but I highly doubt it's reflective of the general populace.

I'd be really interested to see stats about party memberships and the demographic breakdowns of them. So far I've found this table from Stats Can showing that about 4 to 6 percent of Canadians are members of a political party, with men being a teensy bit more likely to be members, and older people being more likely to be members, especially people 65+.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Rob Ford also just had to waltz in and declare himself a candidate. The barriers to entering municipal politics even in a city as large as Toronto aren't even close to being the same as the barriers to entering federal politics at the highest level.

If a candidate emerged among the CPC pack who could pull off getting 47% in a general, these 'barriers' would mean pretty much jack shit.

This is also assuming those barriers survive the failure of whoever wins this round, when it turns out the system churns out an uninspiring candidate who gets their knees cut out from under them by Trudeau in an election.

I'll also point out that the republicans actually *tried* to alter their system to prevent someone like Trump from winning, and it didn't work in the end. It's not as if the GOP nomination wasn't a run-off battle where you'd expect second choices to do well. In the face of the weird kind of charisma Trump has, the barriers they do nothing.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
The fact that in Canada you have to actively go out of your way and join a political party, often, as in this case, paying to join (even if it's only like 15 bucks), is also a huge, absolutely yuuuge, difference between this leadership vote and the primaries in the United States. I don't know what the breakdown of this tiny subset of people is, but I highly doubt it's reflective of the general populace.

I'd be really interested to see stats about party memberships and the demographic breakdowns of them. So far I've found this table from Stats Can showing that about 4 to 6 percent of Canadians are members of a political party, with men being a teensy bit more likely to be members, and older people being more likely to be members, especially people 65+.
On the flip side, you can I guess theoretically join all the parties since there isn't a "primary" process. I think this is the only time in recent memory when two parties are going through leadership changes in the same year, and I think the timing is right that you can join the CPC to vote in March and then quit and join the NDP to vote in October.
 
If a candidate emerged among the CPC pack who could pull off getting 47% in a general, these 'barriers' would mean pretty much jack shit.

This is also assuming those barriers survive the failure of whoever wins this round, when it turns out the system churns out an uninspiring candidate who gets their knees cut out from under them by Trudeau in an election.

I'll also point out that the republicans actually *tried* to alter their system to prevent someone like Trump from winning, and it didn't work in the end. It's not as if the GOP nomination wasn't a run-off battle where you'd expect second choices to do well. In the face of the weird kind of charisma Trump has, the barriers they do nothing.

1) The Conservatives can't get 47% without Quebec. Harper got as far as anybody could possibly get without Quebec and he didn't sniff 47%

2) The U.S. and Canada aren't the same, and Kevin O'Leary and Trump aren't the same. Politics in Canada always trends towards the least interesting outcome. I would be shocked if this all didn't play out exactly according to Wells's Rules
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
1) The Conservatives can't get 47% without Quebec. Harper got as far as anybody could possibly get without Quebec and he didn't sniff 47%

2) The U.S. and Canada aren't the same, and Kevin O'Leary and Trump aren't the same. Politics in Canada always trends towards the least interesting outcome. I would be shocked if this all didn't play out exactly according to Wells's Rules
Canada is a country where you can win a majority with less than 40 so yeah. lol
But the predictable swing is always Ontario, and identity politics mostly doesn't work here for the most part and with the NDP being dead and irrelevant, there's only really one place for the protest vote to go now.
 

maharg

idspispopd
1) The Conservatives can't get 47% without Quebec. Harper got as far as anybody could possibly get without Quebec and he didn't sniff 47%

I didn't say they could necessarily? We have many years before anyone but Trudeau has a shot at winning a general election. If you can't see how a populist conservative candidate that could appeal to both Quebecers and the ROC could emerge then I think you lack imagination.

2) The U.S. and Canada aren't the same, and Kevin O'Leary and Trump aren't the same. Politics in Canada always trends towards the least interesting outcome. I would be shocked if this all didn't play out exactly according to Wells's Rules

Ugh. This stupid "we are not exactly the same so any comparison is null!" thing again. Yes, if Trump literally moved to Canada and ran he wouldn't stand a chance. This doesn't mean that someone exploiting the same base elements of politics in a *Canadian way* can't enjoy similar success and lead us down a bad path *for Canada*.

"Least interesting" does not mean "least bad." Arguably, most Canadians found the residential schools uninteresting, they were still a horrifying human rights abuse.

Anyways, this axiom is just a religious belief in the exceptional boringness of Canadians. It's not some rigorous proof of anything.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
^
The big difference is that tt's impossible to be populist and appeal to both Quebec and English Canada at the same time. The NDP tried it and failed spectacularly.
 

bremon

Member
Alberta@noon right now is taking calls about thoughts on O'Leary. I've never been so embarrassed to be Albertan. All pro-Trump and pro-O'Leary empty talk. "A great businessman who can get Trudeau out and fix the economy!". Just had one guy call in about Bernier being his guy and that was the only anti-Kevin call.
 
Canada is a country where you can win a majority with less than 40 so yeah. lol
But the predictable swing is always Ontario, and identity politics mostly doesn't work here for the most part and with the NDP being dead and irrelevant, there's only really one place for the protest vote to go now.

But you're also forgetting that Ontario tends to hold grudges. Hell, one look at our Provincial scene will tell you people are still pissed at parties over events that happened 20-30 years ago

Alberta@noon right now is taking calls about thoughts on O'Leary. I've never been so embarrassed to be Albertan. All pro-Trump and pro-O'Leary empty talk. "A great businessman who can get Trudeau out and fix the economy!". Just had one guy call in about Bernier being his guy and that was the only anti-Kevin call.

When its a radio station doing it; Usually that's when you respectfully call in, be on their side by saying which candidate you prefer and then using facts to back up your views that O'Leary is a terribly business man because of his tendency to run any business he has ever touched into the ground.

If people aren't hearing opposing views, of course they are going to take the position of what they heard first.
 

maharg

idspispopd
^
The big difference is that tt's impossible to be populist and appeal to both Quebec and English Canada at the same time. The NDP tried it and failed spectacularly.

"Someone tried it once and it didn't work, it must be impossible!"

If you think people just give up like that I have a bridge to sell you.

Also, the NDP ran a pretty explicitly not populist campaign last time, so...
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
But you're also forgetting that Ontario tends to hold grudges. Hell, one look at our Provincial scene will tell you people are still pissed at parties over events that happened 20-30 years ago
I suppose that's the only reasonable explanation for why Wynne is still Premier. :p
(Although that's literally because we only get to choose between, as they say on South Park, a douche and a turd here)

Ontario is basically convince non-Toronto/Hamilton to vote for you instead of the other guy, and a lot of the those communities are home to immigrants as well. You can play on economic anxieties, but I don't think some kind of divisive campaign is going to work. I genuinely believe that Quebec saves us from all of that, because trying to appeal to one group automatically offends the other and vice versa and the way it works out is that you need both to vote for you (or at least not for your opponent) to win.
 
^
The big difference is that tt's impossible to be populist and appeal to both Quebec and English Canada at the same time. The NDP tried it and failed spectacularly.

Jack Layton's brand of positive populism worked really well in 2011.

I wouldn't consider Mulcair to be a ''populist'' tough, he is a colour swapping opportunist
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
"Someone tried it once and it didn't work, it must be impossible!"

If you think people just give up like that I have a bridge to sell you.

Also, the NDP ran a pretty explicitly not populist campaign last time, so...
I think gutter can talk about how the NDP tried to pander to Quebec sovereigntists more than me anyway. lol
They were certainly try to hold their Quebec seats and willing to do/say anything to make that happen.

Maybe someone can come up with the magic formula that both appeals to Quebec's desire to be a distinct society but also simultaneously appeals to the rest of Canada. Maybe that means a campaign that argues for complete decentralization and offering more power to the provinces - "The federal government is broken and we need to let the people fix it themselves!" - and I can see someone running that kind of platform in order to win opposition. But maybe I'm too short-sighted to see how someone runs a campaign that somehow unites Canada in divisiveness, which is what the Trump/Firage playbook was all about.

Jack Layton's brand of positive populism worked really well in 2011.

I wouldn't consider Mulcair to be a ''populist'' tough, he is a colour swapping opportunist
I would consider that desperate populism. lol
 
I didn't say they could necessarily? We have many years before anyone but Trudeau has a shot at winning a general election. If you can't see how a populist conservative candidate that could appeal to both Quebecers and the ROC could emerge then I think you lack imagination.



Ugh. This stupid "we are not exactly the same so any comparison is null!" thing again. Yes, if Trump literally moved to Canada and ran he wouldn't stand a chance. This doesn't mean that someone exploiting the same base elements of politics in a *Canadian way* can't enjoy similar success and lead us down a bad path *for Canada*.

"Least interesting" does not mean "least bad." Arguably, most Canadians found the residential schools uninteresting, they were still a horrifying human rights abuse.

Anyways, this axiom is just a religious belief in the exceptional boringness of Canadians. It's not some rigorous proof of anything.

I'm sure we can have a discussion without calling each other stupid. I may harbour opinions on the likelihood of a Federal party fielding a candidate that speaks French worse than Harper, but I can get by using words like "unlikely", and "without historical precedent".
 

maharg

idspispopd
[edit] I'm editing this post to make it less confrontational than my first pass.

I'm sure we can have a discussion without calling each other stupid. I may harbour opinions on the likelihood of a Federal party fielding a candidate that speaks French worse than Harper, but I can get by using words like "unlikely", and "without historical precedent".

I'm sorry I implied you're stupid. It's the idea I intended to attack, not you. And it's an idea that repeats a lot, and I really do believe that it is not a helpful argument in any way. Do you really believe I'm unaware that the US and Canada (or Trump and O'Leary for that matter) are not identical? This is not a good faith interpretation of what I am (or anyone else is) saying. That we're not identical does not mean there are not similar currents, or that the methods of that particular brand of populism can't be adapted to any political system.
 
I did not call you stupid, I called an idea that keeps popping up in defense of ignoring a very real potential problem stupid. I myself have many stupid ideas and I don't consider myself stupid.

So let's dig down. Do you really believe I'm not aware that Canada and the US are not in fact identical? Using nice words does not mean you're treating the person you're talking to with respect in itself.

I don't think you do, but when fascism comes to Canada it'll come draped in the Canadian flag, not as some knock off American wannabe. Making the giant assumption that he wins the nom, he'd be running against a popular incumbent. These are big differences in the situations between the US and Canada that I think are worth including in the conversation, not stupid notions.

Not to mention he would be a poster boy for running for Opposition Leader.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I edited my reply. Sorry for the original one, it was too much.

I don't think O'Leary wins this time, and I don't think Leich is the person we actually need to worry about. But I think we *will* have our Trump and it's probably not all that far away, and it will look a lot like Trump (they will be charismatic, probably wealthy, and will push on base level buttons in the same way with the same kind of easy-to-digest rhetoric). It might be O'Leary next time, depending on how deep down a racist rabbit hole he wants to get.

Personally, I think what will happen is after this round, when they lose against Trudeau, they will change the nomination rules and the party will deliberately steer into it. If the right person comes along at that point, they will have a good shot of winning.

Again, it's 8 years from now we need to be worried about, but the groundwork is going to be laid sooner rather than later.
 
I don't think you do, but when fascism comes to Canada it'll come draped in the Canadian flag, not as some knock off American wannabe. Making the giant assumption that he wins the nom, he'd be running against a popular incumbent. These are big differences in the situations between the US and Canada that I think are worth including in the conversation, not stupid notions.

Not to mention he would be a poster boy for running for Opposition Leader.
this is why Harper tried to slowly change the culture of flag waving and patriotism for being more macho that what is is.

Harper knew that by bolstering a more macho type of ''Patriotism'' that he could brainwash more average folks.

It didn't work in the long term.

But Canada is no where near other countries in term of Flag Waving bravado, especially considering the stark regional disparities where everyone has a different definition ideology of what being a Proud Canadian is.

Harper tried to merge Quebec Nationalism with Conservative Values to try to sell it to them since the whole Canada flag waving thing works differently there. Only worked in some small pockets but didn't pan out Province wide
 
I edited my reply. Sorry for the original one, it was too much.

I don't think O'Leary wins this time, and I don't think Leich is the person we actually need to worry about. But I think we *will* have our Trump and it's probably not all that far away, and it will look a lot like Trump (they will be charismatic, probably wealthy, and will push on base level buttons in the same way with the same kind of easy-to-digest rhetoric). It might be O'Leary next time, depending on how deep down a racist rabbit hole he wants to get.

Personally, I think what will happen is after this round, when they lose against Trudeau, they will change the nomination rules and the party will deliberately steer into it. If the right person comes along at that point, they will have a good shot of winning.

Again, it's 8 years from now we need to be worried about, but the groundwork is going to be laid sooner rather than later.

No worries man, I'm not trying to tone police either. I wasn't offended :)

I have a hard time seeing O'Leary be an MP for potentially eight years to get a shot at being PM. It's not like the US where you can be an occasional candidate. If he gets the gig he has to run in a riding, actually be an MP, show up to Parliament every day, etc.

I just don't see him doing it. I see him a lot like the Conservative version of Michael Ignatieff. The kind of person who sees themselves just airdropping right into the top job from outside politics. Hell, I think you could draw a lot of compatibles between those two situations.

As for whether we're due for a Trump, who knows, maybe we just had him. I'm a glass is half full type of guy.
 

Prax

Member
I don't think we'll get a Trump, but we ARE going to get tired of the Liberals because that's just how we seem to work.

But I think it will just be the next Harper but softer? Not charismatic, but perhaps folksy. Just warm and will bring Canada many shames and steps backwards but he will seem like a nice grampa so it will only be the next crop of young people bemoaning him for a while until we all get disillusioned.
 
Conservative leaning Canadians area already predisposed to dislike the Trudeaus.

It's the non-partisan Canadians who float in-between both parties that are always up for grabs, especially in Ontario
 

maharg

idspispopd
No worries man, I'm not trying to tone police either. I wasn't offended :)

I have a hard time seeing O'Leary be an MP for potentially eight years to get a shot at being PM. It's not like the US where you can be an occasional candidate. If he gets the gig he has to run in a riding, actually be an MP, show up to Parliament every day, etc.

I just don't see him doing it. I see him a lot like the Conservative version of Michael Ignatieff. The kind of person who sees themselves just airdropping right into the top job from outside politics. Hell, I think you could draw a lot of compatibles between those two situations.

As for whether we're due for a Trump, who knows, maybe we just had him. I'm a glass is half full type of guy.

I'm saying I don't think O'Leary is likely to win the leadership this time around, but that if conditions become more favourable (or he can use his wealth and relative fame to make them more favourable) he would try again.

No way is he running for a seat unless he's already the leader.
 

Sean C

Member
The Reform Party became the leading right-wing party during the 90s when the right-wing vote had a split between them and the Progressive Conservatives. They campaigned on ending bilingualism, ending healthcare, had a hard stance on immigration and held anti-Quebec sentiments and attracted support from people who talked about Ontario being taken over "by the low blacks, the Hispanics".
Reform never came close to forming a government, though. I don't think anybody thinks there isn't a certain constituency that would support Trump in Canada (any newspaper comment section would show that), but the Reform Party (which was nowhere near as extreme as Trump) shows the limits of that approach more than the potential success.

Instead of saying some variation of "that could never happen in Canada", we need to be active and start saying "we won't let this happen in Canada"!
Other than people who are Conservative Party members, there really isn't anything for people to actively do right now. We aren't in the middle of an election.

I don't think O'Leary wins this time, and I don't think Leich is the person we actually need to worry about. But I think we *will* have our Trump and it's probably not all that far away, and it will look a lot like Trump (they will be charismatic, probably wealthy, and will push on base level buttons in the same way with the same kind of easy-to-digest rhetoric). It might be O'Leary next time, depending on how deep down a racist rabbit hole he wants to get.

Personally, I think what will happen is after this round, when they lose against Trudeau, they will change the nomination rules and the party will deliberately steer into it. If the right person comes along at that point, they will have a good shot of winning.

Again, it's 8 years from now we need to be worried about, but the groundwork is going to be laid sooner rather than later.
Of all the possible scenarios, I'd call that among the least likely. The Conservative Party brass would never intentionally steer things in that direction, anymore than the GOP brass would have had they had the opportunity. Particularly since, I suspect, we're going to see Trump spectacularly fail over the next couple of years, which will be a big damper on emulators of his movement.
 

Liberty4all

Banned
Canadian politicians can't win playing identity politics for all the reasons you guys have mentioned.

With that said, Jack Layton proved that CLASS politics can deliver in a big way. That's why he made it so far in 2011 .. . He was for "the hard working Canadian families". I don't think there was ever a time I saw him on the news he didn't say that at least once or twice.

Trudeau showed this too with his "I will tax the rich". The rich being our doctors, many of whom no doubt will be heading south of the border soon with the new taxes hurting their abilty to income split and put tax deferred income into their corporation.

Bribes to middle class families also works ... both Harper and Trudeau in their respective elections won a shitload of votes thanks to the Child Tax Credit.
 

Ondore

Member
Other than people who are Conservative Party members, there really isn't anything for people to actively do right now. We aren't in the middle of an election.

I'm actually thinking of ponying up the $15 to join the CPC on March 31, vote against O'Leary and Leitch, then leave. I feel like giving up lunch for a day or two would be worth doing something to keep that element out of Canadian politics.
 

SRG01

Member
Conservative leaning Canadians area already predisposed to dislike the Trudeaus.

It's the non-partisan Canadians who float in-between both parties that are always up for grabs, especially in Ontario

Yup. Ontario outside of the Toronto region is filled with soft right-leaning votes.
 

CazTGG

Member
Reform never came close to forming a government, though. I don't think anybody thinks there isn't a certain constituency that would support Drumpf in Canada (any newspaper comment section would show that), but the Reform Party (which was nowhere near as extreme as Trump) shows the limits of that approach more than the potential success.

The main reason they didn't was more due to the split in the right-wing vote between them and the Progressive Conservatives rather than a lack of appeal for their platform. The Reform Party swept the western provinces and developed quite the support in Ontario. I'm not saying they're proof we're doomed, more that there is a history of this right-wing populist, racist movement to garner a significant amount of support on the federal level, to say nothing about the apathy towards bigotry of all strides. 2015's federal election had some of those same whiffs with Harper and the party's Islamophobia and the Conservative Party still won just under 100 seats and roughly 32% of the vote. That's a sizable portion of the vote and power in Parliament that shouldn't be ignored given what their platform entailed.

meme-01.jpg


(Yes, this is real)
 
Yup. Ontario outside of the Toronto region is filled with soft right-leaning votes.

First, Ottawa is fairly centrist.
Secondly, Toronto has 25 seats. Expand that out to the suburbs and bedroom communities, and you're up to 63 seats. If the Conservatives want to become the party of rural Canada and go hard on the racism, that's a recipe for electoral disaster, since they'd be alienating all those suburban voters they need to win elections (as we saw in 2015).

Yes, and the deadline for the NDP is August I think.

I just wonder what it takes to officially "quit" a party?

They don't share membership lists or make them public, so the parties have no way of policing that. If you're just the honest type, though, you can mail in your membership card to party HQ with a note telling them you quit.

The fact that in Canada you have to actively go out of your way and join a political party, often, as in this case, paying to join (even if it's only like 15 bucks), is also a huge, absolutely yuuuge, difference between this leadership vote and the primaries in the United States. I don't know what the breakdown of this tiny subset of people is, but I highly doubt it's reflective of the general populace.

I'd be really interested to see stats about party memberships and the demographic breakdowns of them. So far I've found this table from Stats Can showing that about 4 to 6 percent of Canadians are members of a political party, with men being a teensy bit more likely to be members, and older people being more likely to be members, especially people 65+.

This, I think, more than anything else, is the fundamental reason why a Trump-style campaign for party leadership wouldn't work. Joining a party and voting in its leadership races takes much more effort here than it does in the U.S. All Trump had to do was ask people to show up on a certain day and vote for him. O'Leary -- or anyone like him -- is relying on people being so into his candidacy that they're going to spend $15 to buy a membership, then remembering to vote by mail or in person two months later. It's a much bigger ask, and it relies on a campaign organization that I don't believe he'll have in place in just a few short months.

The main reason they didn't was more due to the split in the right-wing vote between them and the Progressive Conservatives rather than a lack of appeal for their platform. The Reform Party swept the western provinces and developed quite the support in Ontario. I'm not saying they're proof we're doomed, more that there is a history of this right-wing populist, racist movement to garner a significant amount of support on the federal level, to say nothing about the apathy towards bigotry of all strides. 2015's federal election had some of those same whiffs with Harper and the party's Islamophobia and the Conservative Party still won just under 100 seats and roughly 32% of the vote. That's a sizable portion of the vote and power in Parliament that shouldn't be ignored given what their platform entailed.

This is all ahistoric nonsense. The Liberals won majorities in 1993, 1997 and 2000 in part by nearly sweeping Ontario each time, with approximately half the vote each time. It wouldn't have mattered if there were a united right, because the combined vote totals for PC + Reform still wouldn' have come close to the Liberals -- and that's without even considering the fallacy of PC voter = Reform voter (I know I was a PCer, and I most definitely wasn't a Reformer). The only time the combined Conservative vote even came close to matching those crazy Liberal totals of 1993-2000 in Ontario was 2011, and that required a surging NDP knocking a lot of centre-right Liberals into the CPC column out of fear of an NDP victory. Even then, the CPC vote maxed out at 44%. If the Conservatives try and go Trump-style hard-right in 2019, we'll most likely see a repeat of 1993/1997/2000/2015 -- the NDP vote will collapse, and the whole centre/centre-left vote will go Liberal.

I'm not discounting the idea that a right-wing populist could sweep to power in Canada. I'm not discounting that the CPC 2015 campaign was a lot more successful than many people realize. I am saying, however, that the political realities of this country are different enough from elsewhere (and very different from the U.S.) that you can't just say that because it happened there, it'll happen here.
 

diaspora

Member
so uh, remember the person that was crying about their hydro bill? Apparently they were using 4800KWh+

which is fucking insane, 3400 of that was off peak hours, were they bitcoin mining in the middle of bumfuck nowhere? That $1k bill/month is 100% deserved.
 

SRG01

Member
First, Ottawa is fairly centrist.
Secondly, Toronto has 25 seats. Expand that out to the suburbs and bedroom communities, and you're up to 63 seats. If the Conservatives want to become the party of rural Canada and go hard on the racism, that's a recipe for electoral disaster, since they'd be alienating all those suburban voters they need to win elections (as we saw in 2015).

Thought some of the Toronto suburbs were soft-blue as well? They voted in Ford after all?

so uh, remember the person that was crying about their hydro bill? Apparently they were using 4800KWh+

which is fucking insane, 3400 of that was off peak hours, were they bitcoin mining in the middle of bumfuck nowhere? That $1k bill/month is 100% deserved.

Either that or a grow-op? Or running a server business in a basement?
 
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