• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bloc is not a true Left wing party.

Economically and social ussues yeah but they're Hard Right on Identity Politics and Nationalism

NDP played with fire admitting Nationalists as candidates. For this and the Sherbrooke Declaration of pandering, I cannot support these Nationalist and Soft Souvrrnist enablers
 

maharg

idspispopd
We are all, once again, shocked to hear your opinion of the NDP is negative, gutter_trash.

Thank you for informing us for the 8 billionth time.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I don't remember who, but someone posted an article about how the 2015 election would spell a decline for one of the two left-leaning parties in Canada. Between the NDP's current decline and the Bloc Quebecois being close to a non-factor at this point, it seems that we may be headed into a U.S.-style two-party system where your only options are to vote against the party you don't want in power rather than the one who most closely share your beliefs (or vote swapping with someone in a competitive riding where someone belonging to a given party holds those views). That's a dreadful proposition should it come to pass (which I hope it doesn't).

This is how I felt after the NDP proved they couldn't win federally after losing basically all of Quebebc. It's why I'm all for the Sanders/Corbyn approach of just nuking the established left-of-center party and dragging them as far left as possible.

It's funny though, BC and Alberta and presumably Saskatchewan will have NDP governments because the NDP are the only other viable choice for voters, so in some ways the 2 party system does benefit them too.
 

CazTGG

Member
So it seems that, while the majority of Ontatian favor legalization, they're not where where legal marijuana should be sold:
http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...overnment-control-of-marijuana-retailing.html

Asked specifically where recreational marijuana should be sold after the federal government legalizes it next July 1, respondents were divided.

A quarter — 24 per cent — said the “Cannabis Control Board of Ontario,” 10 per cent said existing LCBO liquor stores, 16 per cent said pharmacies, 19 per cent said “dispensaries,” which are currently operating illegally, while 2 per cent said convenience stores, 1 per cent said other shops, 6 per cent didn’t know, and 23 per cent oppose any sale of marijuana.
 

mo60

Member
interesting piece from Coyne.

highlighting the fact the Sheer only won the leadership by making a coalition with a couple of dairy lords against Bernier. It is a very weak leadership win IMO.
Anybody but Bernier because derp Dairy Lords is not much of a pan-Canadian coalition.

Most Quebecers hate the Dairy Cartel for their artificially high price of local dairy in comparaison with Europe and the US. Fuck the Dairy Lords.

-------

today in "Thomas Mulcair's chickens coming home to roost" news:

Longueuil-Saint-Hubert MP Pierre Nantel (one of Mulcair's genius recruits) is threatening to quit the NDP if they Guy Caron doesn't win the Leadership.

This nationalist rocket-scientist is Trumpetting nationalist talking points in his disagreement with Angus, Singh and Asthon's stance on multi-culturalism.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...of-life-to-a-moribund-bloc-qubcois-hbert.html



*sigh* Mulcair's NDP recruits.. big ass *sigh*

another MP Claude Patry switching parties.

This is why you should never recruit "Nationalistess :p" as candidats for a Federalist Party

That former MP is now a member of some anti-islamic group.I'm not shocked that some NDP Quebec MP's are not happy with the federal NDP leadership race.
 
That former MP is now a member of some anti-islamic group.I'm not shocked that some NDP Quebec MLA's are not happy with the federal NDP leadership race.
MPs you mean, not MLAs or MNAs.

This was Mulcair's gamble when he was put in charge of recruitment by Layton. Thinking that Nationalists could ever be loyal to s Federalist party

Brian Mulroney got burned and stabbed in the back by using the same strategy
 

Sean C

Member
I don't remember who, but someone posted an article about how the 2015 election would spell a decline for one of the two left-leaning parties in Canada. Between the NDP's current decline and the Bloc Quebecois being close to a non-factor at this point, it seems that we may be headed into a U.S.-style two-party system where your only options are to vote against the party you don't want in power rather than the one who most closely share your beliefs (or vote swapping with someone in a competitive riding where someone belonging to a given party holds those views). That's a dreadful proposition should it come to pass (which I hope it doesn't).
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. If you mean that there'll only be two parties genuinely contending for government, that's pretty much always been the case in Canada. The smaller parties aren't going to vanish -- indeed, it the NDP weakens in Quebec, it will boost the Bloc to at least some degree.

Unrelatedly, this Washington Post article about a World University Service of Canada program that provides scholarships and citizenship for 16 Somali refugees annually is a pretty amazing read.
 

Tapejara

Member
I honestly don't know how to parse this coming from the CPC Twitter account:

https://twitter.com/CPC_HQ/status/908800592784515072

DJyo3CBW0AUO7c1.jpg
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
There's an interesting podcast with Michael Spratt on pot, you may have heard him on the CBC. He appeared in front of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health to testify on Bill C-45.

http://www.michaelspratt.com/poadcast-legal-matters/

It sounds like there are A LOT of problems. Youths are criminalised, penalties for plants that are too tall are stiff and nonsensical, there's no path to pardon, edibles are no where to be seen in the legislation, fines can become criminal if not paid -yet sealed if they are, etc.

I honestly don't know how to parse this coming from the CPC Twitter account:

https://twitter.com/CPC_HQ/status/908800592784515072

That's a pretty solid joke.
 

CazTGG

Member
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. If you mean that there'll only be two parties genuinely contending for government, that's pretty much always been the case in Canada. The smaller parties aren't going to vanish -- indeed, it the NDP weakens in Quebec, it will boost the Bloc to at least some degree.

Unrelatedly, this Washington Post article about a World University Service of Canada program that provides scholarships and citizenship for 16 Somali refugees annually is a pretty amazing read.

What I mean is that the NDP will cease to be relevant and, contrary to Gutter's opinions, helpful for the federal government to have like they were during various Liberal minorities i.e. Pierre Trudeau, Lester Pearson, etc.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. If you mean that there'll only be two parties genuinely contending for government, that's pretty much always been the case in Canada. The smaller parties aren't going to vanish -- indeed, it the NDP weakens in Quebec, it will boost the Bloc to at least some degree.

Unrelatedly, this Washington Post article about a World University Service of Canada program that provides scholarships and citizenship for 16 Somali refugees annually is a pretty amazing read.

NDP weakening can strengthen the Liberals. Trudeau already did that last time.
 

Boogie

Member

Sean C

Member
I hadn't thought about this in a while, but we should be hearing about our next Chief Justice and next Puisne Justice of the Supreme Court in the near future, since McLachlin's retirement date draws near.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
Again: this is a lie. The only people who'll be impacted by closing the tax loophole are in the top 1-2% of all income earners in Canada.

Unless you're in a position where a) you're making so much money that you've incorporated yourself and b) you're avoiding taxes by saying the salary you pay yourself is actually capital gains -- see the Vice explainer posted upthread -- it won't have any impact. Seeing as the average small business owner in Canada makes just under $33k/year -- from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business' own numbers! -- the number of people who'll be affected by the changes is minimal. If you want to argue that very rich people deserve to keep more of their money through tax shelters, go ahead, but at least be up front with what you're arguing for.

We're arguing different things. To be wealthy implies possession of wealth. Both Trudeau and Morneau have spent years using these tax "loopholes" to accumulate their own personal fortunes within their personal corporations. They both have millions saved away using the very same strategies they now decry. They're now introducing reforms that will prevent others from doing the same, and at the same time are grandfathering in the existing laws to protect pre-existing corporations that have passive savings. It's a very bad look.

This tax doesn't really hurt the wealthy. The "old doctors" that you or someone else mentioned, guys like Trudeau and Morneau, are not going to be hurt by this. Their wealth is safe.

These tax changes hurt people who are trying to generate wealth. New small businesses will be the most effected. It'll hinder their ability to be competitive with more established businesses whose war chests are protected. It'll make people less likely to try and strike it out on their own.

This isn't about high income earners vs low income earners. Its about salaried people vs non salaried people. People of a certain level of talent, education, or skills are going to be paid well regardless. I'm a physician that isn't incorporated because I'm salaried. I make a guaranteed wage, get paid when I'm sick, paid while I'm on vacation, and on top of all that have an employer contributed pension to boot. I've chosen to stay in this position because I like the stability. I tried opening up a practice early on in my career, but it wasn't for me. Running a business requires being responsible for a huge amount of capital costs that salaried people never have to worry about. Your revenue stream is also much more unpredictable. Being able to park your money within the corporation is a great way to buffer against a future rainy day, or conversely an unanticipated up scaling of your operation. Again, these are things that salaried people never have to worry about.

I've already mentioned the retirement piece, so I'll avoid rehashing that. But if Morneau and Trudeau were serious about targeting the wealthy, why are they grandfathering in old investments?

I've already mentioned that I dont support dividend sprinkling. And virtually no one pays themselves with capital gains - it's too complicated, and too close to being illegal. What I'm defending is deferred income, which is by far the the biggest pot of funds that the government has its eye on.
 

Sean C

Member
I've already mentioned the retirement piece, so I'll avoid rehashing that. But if Morneau and Trudeau were serious about targeting the wealthy, why are they grandfathering in old investments?
Because people organized their financial affairs in good faith around this regime, I'd imagine.
 
A few interesting stories from provincial politics:

1) Wab Kinew won the leadership of the Manitoba NDP -- possibly the first-ever indigenous person to lead a major political party outside of the territories?

2) Marjorie Lebreton is criticizing Patrick Brown for being shady. Given that, as the article notes, she's been a diehard PC loyalist going back to the days of Diefenbaker, for her to publicly criticize a fellow Tory means that there must be some really terrible stuff going on behind closed doors in the Ontario PC Party.

I don't remember who, but someone posted an article about how the 2015 election would spell a decline for one of the two left-leaning parties in Canada. Between the NDP's current decline and the Bloc Quebecois being close to a non-factor at this point, it seems that we may be headed into a U.S.-style two-party system where your only options are to vote against the party you don't want in power rather than the one who most closely share your beliefs (or vote swapping with someone in a competitive riding where someone belonging to a given party holds those views). That's a dreadful proposition should it come to pass (which I hope it doesn't).

Reminder: we're one election removed from nearly everyone saying the Liberals were on death's door. I remember reading an article saying that the Liberal brand was irreperably damaged, and that the coalition that had sustained them since 1896 had finally fractured. In fact, just last week, I read an article written by Tom Flanagan, one of Harper's top advisors, where he said that the Liberals inability to adapt to modern fundraising techniques meant that they'd be swallowed up by the NDP after the 2015 election. Then they picked a new leader, pulled themselves out of their death spiral, and overcame being a distant third at the beginning of the 2015 campaign to win the election. Go back a decade and a half, and you'll be able to find a lot of prominent pundits who thought that Paul Martin wasn't just going to win, he was going to win 200+ seats. We all know how that turned out. Likewise, look back at the period from 1984 to 1993: the PCs went from the largest majority in history to 2 seats, over the span of just two elections.

My point is that things can change very quickly, and that just because things seem grim for the NDP now, it doesn't mean that they'll be grim forever.

I mean, they should certainly be a little concerned. All of the leadership contenders have red flags: Caron is a non-entity, Ashton has terrible political instincts, Angus can't speak French, and Singh -- setting aside the obvious challenges he'll face as a visible/religious minority leading a national party -- has a stance on the OAS that seems tailor-made to sink him in a general election. If Singh wins, he'll do so entirely on the strength of the GTA and the greater Vancouver area, which doesn't show how he'd grow the party beyond the two places it's not in terrible shape; if Angus wins, if the Mainstreet polls are to be believed, it'll be thanks to a voter base that overwhelming skews age 65+; which doesn't bode well for their future prospects.

Even worse, they have major money issues. Being $3 million in debt is going to make fundraising for 2019 challenging, particularly because they've been struggling to adapt to a world where parties can't raise money from corporations/unions, and they can't rely on the per-vote subsidy. Theoretically, you'd think an increasingly polarized discourse would benefit them, but so far, that just hasn't been the case. I don't think it's impossible for them to do -- like I said, things can change surprisingly quickly -- but I'm not sure how they go about doing it.

No he never did, as his "surplus" in 2014/15 was the result of one time selling off GM shares at way below profitable value

Notwithstanding Boogie's point about Harper's first two surpluses -- the first of which was 100% attributable to the Liberals -- the number of accounting tricks the CPC pulled to claim a surplus in an election year was crazy. Beyond selling off the GM shares, they also sold off a bunch of overseas buildings, and they played around with how civil servant sick leave was counted. I knew of some people who were also very suspicious of the fact that nearly every single department returned significant amounts of their budgets at the end of the previous fiscal year. So technically, yes, it was a surplus, but it was based on a lot of magical thinking and unsustainable practices.
 

CazTGG

Member
We're arguing different things. To be wealthy implies possession of wealth. Both Trudeau and Morneau have spent years using these tax "loopholes" to accumulate their own personal fortunes within their personal corporations. They both have millions saved away using the very same strategies they now decry. They're now introducing reforms that will prevent others from doing the same, and at the same time are grandfathering in the existing laws to protect pre-existing corporations that have passive savings. It's a very bad look.

This tax doesn't really hurt the wealthy. The "old doctors" that you or someone else mentioned, guys like Trudeau and Morneau, are not going to be hurt by this. Their wealth is safe.

These tax changes hurt people who are trying to generate wealth. New small businesses will be the most effected. It'll hinder their ability to be competitive with more established businesses whose war chests are protected. It'll make people less likely to try and strike it out on their own.

This isn't about high income earners vs low income earners. Its about salaried people vs non salaried people. People of a certain level of talent, education, or skills are going to be paid well regardless. I'm a physician that isn't incorporated because I'm salaried. I make a guaranteed wage, get paid when I'm sick, paid while I'm on vacation, and on top of all that have an employer contributed pension to boot. I've chosen to stay in this position because I like the stability. I tried opening up a practice early on in my career, but it wasn't for me. Running a business requires being responsible for a huge amount of capital costs that salaried people never have to worry about. Your revenue stream is also much more unpredictable. Being able to park your money within the corporation is a great way to buffer against a future rainy day, or conversely an unanticipated up scaling of your operation. Again, these are things that salaried people never have to worry about.

I've already mentioned the retirement piece, so I'll avoid rehashing that. But if Morneau and Trudeau were serious about targeting the wealthy, why are they grandfathering in old investments?

I'd come up with a less snarky response with your "how can Trudope and Bill More Money For The Government be rich but want to make rich people pay more" anti-intellectualism post like how advocating for the wealthy to pay more taxes doesn't preclude one from also making a sizable income, but if I may direct with you: You're being obtuse and willfully misrepresenting Morneau and the Liberal's proposals.

Bill Morneau's proposals will change the tax treatment of CCPCs to close loopholes that currently allow them be used as what can only be described as a tax shelter by wealthy individuals. To keep this explanation short (and understandable to someone who doesn't have a background in accounting), CCPCs are not intentionally designed to provide a lower tax bracket, they're supposed to limit a business owner's liability, similar to the United States limited liability corporation.

However, they have and continue to be exploited by high-earning individuals (read: not small businesses) such as doctors and lawyers to allow them to pay less in taxable income through a combination of income splitting with one's spouse and shifting the type of earned income from one type of income (ex: employment, interest income, 100% taxable) to another (ex: capital gains, only 50% taxable) to lower the amount of income that can be taxed. These techniques are a form of what's called tax avoidance, sometimes used interchangeably with the term tax planning. Put another way, it's why simply increasing taxes on our top earners that some have suggested as an alternative is an ineffective strategy in practice as high-income earners will exploit loopholes like the ones that CCPCs provide to pay less in taxes than they would otherwise.

Morneau's proposals, assuming no other additions are made, will remove many of these loopholes that allow wealthy individuals to take advantage of CCPCs as a form of tax avoidance. And it is indisputable that they are the ones who are currently exploiting CCPCs: Less than 5% and 10% of those earning $27,500 and $68,800 are owners of CCPCs respectively. Compare this to the 1% and 0.1%, of whom over 50% and 70% currently own one for the previously stated reasons (Source *Note* This will link to a PDF download).
There are, of course, other matters that the wealthy have exploited to hoard their income and reduce the taxes they pay like the 20-year rule that should also be removed along with addressing other forms of tax avoidance, but Morneau's proposal is a form of generating tax fairness, not unfairness. If you're going to be paying more if/when these proposals become law, you're doing pretty well for yourself.

Short version: Morneau plans on closing loopholes that six-figure salary earners have exploited to pay less taxes as a means of reducing income equality and ensuring the 1% and .1% pay their fair share since increasing taxes on that group in of itself will inherently lead to them sheltering more of their income. The proposal will not affect the livelihood of current business owners nor will it harm the lower or middle class.

P.S. If you are at all interested in the plight of the little guy, those poor non-salaried souls, and not simply shouting fact-free rhetoric, I would encourage you to read an op-ed by University of Ottowa professor and economic researcher Michael Wolfson: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...uld-not-drive-the-tax-debate/article36280660/. He's suggested in the past that CCPCs should be limited to certain professions so doctors, lawyers and so on don't engage in tax avoidance through CCPCs and discussed something that's been lost in the current yelling about Morneau's proposals: No one seems to be taking about how our current income tax rates affect low-income earners.

Some tax professionals are constructing examples in which they claim Mr. Morneau's proposals would saddle small businesses with tax rates of 80 per cent to 93 per cent. But these examples make the ridiculous assumption that CCPC owners would not rearrange their affairs – for example, by simply paying out their private-company incomes to themselves as salaries, which would bring them back to the top tax rate of 50 per cent.

On the other hand, there are hundreds of thousands of low-income seniors who face marginal income-tax rates of 75 per cent to 100 per cent and even higher – the so-called poverty trap that has persisted for decades. Where are their voices? Who is defending them? Why are 100-per-cent tax rates OK for low-income seniors, yet many among the top 1 per cent become apoplectic when the Finance Minister proposes to bring their tax rates back in line with that of every other high-income individual?

I've already mentioned that I dont support dividend sprinkling. And virtually no one pays themselves with capital gains - it's too complicated, and too close to being illegal. What I'm defending is deferred income, which is by far the the biggest pot of funds that the government has its eye on.

I see your edit that fails to address any of my points and raise you a <citation needed>.
 

Sean C

Member
1) Wab Kinew won the leadership of the Manitoba NDP -- possibly the first-ever indigenous person to lead a major political party outside of the territories?
I think he definitely is.

Though this doesn't sound terribly promising, politically:
But Kinew has been surrounded by controversy ever since he launched his first political campaign last year.

During that campaign, he apologized for misogynistic and homophobic song lyrics he wrote as a rapper. Shortly after that, tweets he had sent years earlier making fun of gays, lesbians, First Nations children and overweight women came to light.

This week, Kinew's ex-partner came forward saying he threw her across a room in 2003, leaving her with rug burn on her legs. Domestic assault charges were laid but later stayed by the Crown, and Kinew denies the allegations.

During his speech before the vote Saturday, Kinew acknowledged the domestic assault charges almost immediately.

"I'm sorry," he said to victims of domestic violence who may have been hurt by media coverage recently and to those who have stood up for him in the last few days.

"I am not the man I was. I have apologized and I am sorry. But that is not enough … every day I will work hard to earn your trust," Kinew told delegates.
The rap lyrics are small potatoes; the domestic assault allegation, whether he's sincere or not (I don't know anything about the situation beyond this article, so I can't judge) is the sort of thing that could dog his image in perpetuity.
 

Random Human

They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.

Terrell

Member
And it's still a bunch of Liberal bashing, which again, is fine, but I have no idea who to vote for. lol

So far that's what it's been boiling down to. Guy Caron and Charlie Angus went after the low-hanging fruit in the Liberals and took some unprincipled shots at the rest of the candidates. Let's hope Ashton and Singh can propose something better for the party, because Angus and Caron feel like different flavours of Mulcair.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Ashton's speech kind of an exercise of going down the checklist of every progressive cause and checking them off with no real narrative connecting things. A bit dull in my opinion. I'm not really sure typical, non-political Canadians outside the NDP would find any of this all that interesting.
 

Terrell

Member
No surprise that Singh brought out current NDP MPs first, considering everything. Nor is it a surprise that they're leaning hard on his ability to brand the NDP differently compared to the other candidates as a rally point that the others aren't, without calling them out for their inability to do so.

EDIT: Oh, his French is actually quite good.

EDIT 2: Oh, there's the shot at Trudeau, thankfully only the one.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Jagmeet is the only whose pitch for how he can win in 2019 feels backed by anything real. He cites the big gains he's made in memberships in the GTA.
 

Terrell

Member
Jagmeet is the only whose pitch for how he can win in 2019 feels backed by anything real.

Yeah. For all the invocation of Jack Layton going on today, Singh seems to be the one who gives the best impression that he truly believes in the values Layton instilled into the party.

Damn, the wait until October 1st is going to be LONG, and there's going to be a lot of talk about how things shook out.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Yeah. For all the invocation of Jack Layton going on today, Singh seems to be the one who gives the best impression that he truly believes in the values Layton instilled into the party.

Rosie Barton just had a good line. Angus represents the "I'm in your corner with you" attitude of Jack Layton, but Singh represents the "Don’t let them tell you it can’t be done" attitude of Jack Layton.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
If anyone is still on the fence about who to vote for in the NDP election, this website has a nice compare and contrast on policy:

http://www.icanparty.ca/en/2017-ndp-leadership/

It looks like it is still incomplete, but I found it useful to see all their proposals and promises side by side.

Nice idea, but the information is presented in a very scattershot way, and the webpage doesn't display properly and I have to scroll within the window.
 

SRG01

Member
P.S. If you are at all interested in the plight of the little guy, those poor non-salaried souls, and not simply shouting fact-free rhetoric, I would encourage you to read an op-ed by University of Ottowa professor and economic researcher Michael Wolfson: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...uld-not-drive-the-tax-debate/article36280660/. He's suggested in the past that CCPCs should be limited to certain professions so doctors, lawyers and so on don't engage in tax avoidance through CCPCs and discussed something that's been lost in the current yelling about Morneau's proposals: No one seems to be taking about how our current income tax rates affect low-income earners.

This topic is very close to my heart since my parents are going through the same thing. The worst part about it is that seniors are forced to convert their RRSP into RRIFs with mandatory withdrawals -- which may automatically claw back the GIS supplement and/or create income tax implications.

Of course, the GIS was never meant to replace individual savings and is only meant to guarantee a certain minimum income above the poverty line, especially if the person does not have RRSPs. The OAS, on the other hand, does provide a top-up and isn't clawed back until around $70-ish thousand... but still triggers income-tax implications.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
So what is the actual viable Quebec strategy?

It seems like the only way to be populist and leftist in Quebec is also to be nationalist, which makes it basically impossible to win for the NDP unless they convince people to go protest vote again.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Did Trudeau need a special Quebec Strategy?

Create a coherent set of appealing policies and that will be as appealing in Montreal as much as it is in Vancouver. That's how Trudeau won and that's how the NDP could win too.
 

Terrell

Member
Did Trudeau need a special Quebec Strategy?

Create a coherent set of appealing policies and that will be as appealing in Montreal as much as it is in Vancouver. That's how Trudeau won and that's how the NDP could win too.

Yeah, I agree. Besides, pandering to Quebec doesn't work when Quebec is not of a unified opinion on any subject. If anything, trying to pander to Quebec is part of what lost the NDP all those seats in the last election because of how transparent - and how poor - that pandering was, especially when it crashed up against other parties.

Also, to be clear, the NDP needs a strategy that gets them votes in the rest of the country, because it's not just Quebec where they weakened.
An overt focus on Quebec can send the wrong message that the rest of the country doesn't matter in the federal election, an idea that already makes half the country bristle uncomfortably whenever an election is announced before campaigning has even begun.
An overt focus on the labor movement can send the wrong message in certain areas, as it could translate to "unions before the average non-union worker" in certain areas that are familiar with provincial NDP governments falling into that trap to their detriment.
An overt focus on the environment can make people see them as "the Green Party with an orange tint".
An overt focus on social inequality can make them seem like they're merely trying to be a leftist counterpoint to the Liberals that will split the vote and usher in another Conservative government. (despite me knowing that way of thinking to be bullshit, as it's a talking point for people who are begging for a 2-party system first and foremost and concerned about vote-splitting second)

If I could give any advice to the NDP, it's to paint every issue in pastel shades. Be soft and subtle and cover every issue, but don't lean into any one thing for too long, and don't let the other parties bait you into doing so like they did with Mulcair.
 

imBask

Banned
So what is the actual viable Quebec strategy?

It seems like the only way to be populist and leftist in Quebec is also to be nationalist, which makes it basically impossible to win for the NDP unless they convince people to go protest vote again.

Bring back Jack Layton, that's about it

Even if I was still a die hard nationalist I wouldn't vote for the Bloc, so like many quebecers I just throw away my vote at the federal elections by voting green or one of the joke party
 
don't compromise on your values to appease and surround yourself with "Nationalistes" ,

you will get backstabbed. Brian Mulroney received the biggest historical backstab in Federal history. Lucien Bouchard and his "nationalistes" PC MPs defected and created the Bloc (majorily with Progressive Conservative MP defectors)

Yeah, I agree. Besides, pandering to Quebec doesn't work when Quebec is not of a unified opinion on any subject. If anything, trying to pander to Quebec is part of what lost the NDP all those seats in the last election because of how transparent - and how poor - that pandering was, especially when it crashed up against other parties.

Also, to be clear, the NDP needs a strategy that gets them votes in the rest of the country, because it's not just Quebec where they weakened.
An overt focus on Quebec can send the wrong message that the rest of the country doesn't matter in the federal election, an idea that already makes half the country bristle uncomfortably whenever an election is announced before campaigning has even begun.
An overt focus on the labor movement can send the wrong message in certain areas, as it could translate to "unions before the average non-union worker" in certain areas that are familiar with provincial NDP governments falling into that trap to their detriment.
An overt focus on the environment can make people see them as "the Green Party with an orange tint".
An overt focus on social inequality can make them seem like they're merely trying to be a leftist counterpoint to the Liberals that will split the vote and usher in another Conservative government. (despite me knowing that way of thinking to be bullshit, as it's a talking point for people who are begging for a 2-party system first and foremost and concerned about vote-splitting second)

If I could give any advice to the NDP, it's to paint every issue in pastel shades. Be soft and subtle and cover every issue, but don't lean into any one thing for too long, and don't let the other parties bait you into doing so like they did with Mulcair.

excellent post. Quebec is not unified on one MONOLITHIC ideology like Alberta is. Pandering towards the hardcore nationalists will only served to "White-en" the NDP in Quebec.

Non-Anglos and Non-Francos in Qc will just dump any flirting with the NDP and stay with the Liberals. They flirted a bit in 2011 but then returned home in 2015.
 

gabbo

Member
So what is the actual viable Quebec strategy?

It seems like the only way to be populist and leftist in Quebec is also to be nationalist, which makes it basically impossible to win for the NDP unless they convince people to go protest vote again.
The best Quebec atrategy is not to run on a Quebec-strategy during a campaign. Have one, but don't make it a focal point until youre in power
 
The best Quebec atrategy is not to run on a Quebec-strategy during a campaign. Have one, but don't make it a focal point until youre in power
But also clarity is important.

NDP have stood by the Sherbrooke Declaration when speaking French but try to not mention it in English media.

Harper and his Conservatives candidates did the same shit, but on a Right Wing angle in certain Quebec regions
 

Sean C

Member
Regarding the NDP leadership race, I think I would be banking on Angus to win if this was ranked balloting. However, this weird multi-week voting process seems like it will lead to many supporters of dropped candidates simply not voting again, rather than transferring over to one of the remaining candidates. That seems like Singh's best bet, to me: make it to the third ballot and count on his supporters being the most energized to keep voting.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
It's like a hybrid of the Conservative process, where you do rank your four candidates, but you can also change your vote if you voted online.
 
Regarding the NDP leadership race, I think I would be banking on Angus to win if this was ranked balloting. However, this weird multi-week voting process seems like it will lead to many supporters of dropped candidates simply not voting again, rather than transferring over to one of the remaining candidates. That seems like Singh's best bet, to me: make it to the third ballot and count on his supporters being the most energized to keep voting.

I think that's Singh's only shot at winning, since -- at least according to Mainstreet's polling -- his support vanishes when you get down to voters' 2nd choices. If he breaks 40% after the first ballot and Angus is well behind him, then he should be able to squeak by in week 2. If it's closer than that (say, both Angus and Singh are in the mid-30s), I think Singh is going to have a much harder time winning over existing party members (as opposed to new sign-ups).

That said, Chantal Hebert makes a pretty convincing argument that he could win on the first ballot, if he really did sign-up so many people concentrated in just the GTA and Vancouver.

She also sort of touches on this:

It's like a hybrid of the Conservative process, where you do rank your four candidates, but you can also change your vote if you voted online.

The good thing about the CPC system was that it forced them to act like a national party. Even if Scheer ultimately ended up winning thanks to a few disgruntled dairy farmers in Quebec, it still meant that the CPC was building itself up in regions where they weren't as strong. (If I'm not mistaken, the Liberals had a similar system, which is how they were able to have so many candidates picked so far in advance of the 2015 election.) By making it so that the leadership can be won just by focusing all your efforts in the one or two biggest cities in Canada, you don't do much to build your party nationally. Yes, the GTA and Greater Vancouver have a decent amount of seats between them, but becoming the party of Toronto & Montreal is what nearly killed the Liberals. I know national campaigns are expensive, and that the NDP is woefully short on funds, but I think that 1M1V system is kind of antiquated.
 

Sean C

Member
The good thing about the CPC system was that it forced them to act like a national party. Even if Scheer ultimately ended up winning thanks to a few disgruntled dairy farmers in Quebec, it still meant that the CPC was building itself up in regions where they weren't as strong. (If I'm not mistaken, the Liberals had a similar system, which is how they were able to have so many candidates picked so far in advance of the 2015 election.)
Yeah, the Liberals use the same weighted points system. Not that it particularly mattered in that instance, as Trudeau collected the most points in 303 of the 308 ridings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom