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[Kill Your Masters]

You think most devs don't feel the same way? There's an ignorance to the business side of the industry amongst gamers and a complete misunderstanding of what it actually takes to make a game that you'll simply never understand (or believe) as an outsider.

This goes both ways. The difference being that gamers - in theory - don't need the industry. Especially the casual crowd that will just take their business somewhere else.

Just business can go both was. And I don't need to mention who would get hurt more if there is no more business deal to be made.

 

[subversus]

Frankly speaking if your game is an amusement park, then microntrasactions are ok. Stupid, throwaway entertainment, I get it. May be microntrasactions will help further differentiate "games" like Amnesia, Journey and Antichamber from stupid shooter meatfests. Can you imagine Commando getting Oscar? That's what happens every year in this industry during GOTY season. Entertainment should have its place. So may be microntrasactions will help people realize the true nature of media they consume.

 

[SapientWolf]

Also i don't get this: "Vote with you, wallet or shut up."

I am consumer so i will speak about it. Not only that but also i will tell my friends that game XYZ sucks because of that.

As you should.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

This goes both ways. The difference being that gamers - in theory - don't need the industry. Especially the casual crowd that will just take their business somewhere else.

Just business can go both was. And I don't need to mention who would get hurt more if there is no more business deal to be made.

So all these consumers who complain yet are ignorant shouldn't educate themselves to strengthen their argument or risk it being notched down because it doesn't bring ill effects upon them?

That's just about as asinine as it is for consumers to not voice their opinion at all.

 

[Uthred]

Frankly speaking if your game is an amusement park, then microntrasactions are ok. Stupid, throwaway entertainment, I get it. May be microntrasactions will help further differentiate "games" like Amnesia, Journey and Antichamber from stupid shooter meatfests. Can you imagine Commando getting Oscar? That's what happens every year in this industry during GOTY season. Entertainment should have its place. So may be microntrasactions will help people realize the true nature of media they consume.

What an awesome analogy, because clearly the Oscars are an unbiased measure of pure quality

 

[Odrion]

I will not accept unacceptable business practices.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

So all these consumers who complain yet are ignorant shouldn't educate themselves to strengthen their argument or risk it being notched down because it doesn't bring ill effects upon them?

That's just about as asinine as it is for consumers to not voice their opinion at all.

Consumers voice their opinion by not buying stuff they don't like.

The more passionate crowd will be called 'ignorant and entitled elitist pricks hurting the poor developers feelings' no matter how good their arguments are.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Consumers voice their opinion by not buying stuff they don't like.

The more passionate crowd will be called 'ignorant and entitled elitist pricks hurting the poor developers feelings' no matter how good their arguments are.

If only that was true 100% of the time.

I just still don't get the logic that making uneducated and sometimes inaccurate noise of an issue is ok because a company won't listen anyway. Doesn't that make the consumer base look unreasonable and ignorant in comparison when they act in such a manner?

 

[levyjl1988]

Some really high-quality posts in this thread, well done people. It's fun seeing an (admittedly poorly constructed) argument being deconstructed in such a thorough manner.

I don't think we'll see Cliffy posting now any time soon after reading all these posts. Then again I doubt he would care.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

I don't think we'll see Cliffy posting now any time soon after reading all these posts. Then again I doubt he would care.

lol yeah right.

He said he wasn't going to post here anymore after the Saints Row thread, and he showed up in this thread within the first 12 posts. If his name is on it, he can't resist.

 

[Portugeezer]

I thought he was leaving the games industry? His opinion is just some random dudes who has a blog, like me, except I'm on the Gaf.

 

[Perkel]

lol yeah right.

He said he wasn't going to post here anymore after the Saints Row thread, and he showed up in this thread within the first 12 posts. If his name is on it, he can't resist.

Because he is GAF user for years. He can say all he want that he won't post anymore but it is to late for him for that. He already knows that GAF is not hivemind nor people are going to crucify him for his thoughts.

Feedback is important for both sides.

 

[Mononoke]

I thought he was leaving the games industry? His opinion is just some random dudes who has a blog, like me, except I'm on the Gaf.

Well, he actually has perspective of the industry from a dev point of view. Do you?

Not trying to defend Cliffy. Just saying, people pay attention to him - because of his past work. Doesn't really make sense to equate him with others that have no experience in the industry.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

I will not accept unacceptable business practices.

 

[GayForMaster]

TOO BAD MOTHERFUCKER!

LOL

 

[Massa]

Yup, not surprising though, twitter is a great platform for spouting stuff and then not defending it in actual discussion with other people.

It's hard to have an actual discussion with other people when it's 1vs100.

 

[Sorcerer]

I am surprised Cliffy is taking this stance.

I could have sworn a couple of years ago, he said that the industry must bring games down to the $20.00 price point (dvd pricing basically)


How did he make the leap from 20 games to being okay with micro-transactions?

 

[kuroshiki]

LOL. I agree with him 100%. People here hate EA it's just scary.

 

[MormaPope]

LOL. I agree with him 100%. People here hate EA it's just scary.

Yeah, because people in this thread said just that and didn't expand on the argument? Drive by praising combined with drive by assertions isn't really going to change people's minds at all.

 

[SapientWolf]

So all these consumers who complain yet are ignorant shouldn't educate themselves to strengthen their argument or risk it being notched down because it doesn't bring ill effects upon them?

That's just about as asinine as it is for consumers to not voice their opinion at all.

They should, but they don't have to in order to provide for themselves is the point I think he was making. Not listening to your customers is just bad business.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

LOL. I agree with him 100%. People here hate EA it's just scary.

I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to EA. Though I gotta say when a company bans customers from using the products they've purchased because some volunteer message board moderator doesn't like what they said, well they aren't going to make any friends.

 

[Terrell]

So because people who don't know any better are willing to get fleeced, I shouldn't voice my opinion on the atrocious business practice? That's like saying "if you don't like this country, then leave."

Not that cut-and-dry and the fact Cliffy B of all people has constructed a "support the war in Iraq or the terrorists win" style of argument is just revolting.

I'm in the minority in many things, that doesn't mean I don't have a valid point to raise or that I should stop raising it. And the same goes for the rest of us.

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Consider the source. This is the same douchebag who boldly defended on-disc DLC, claiming that it is a "necessary evil" in the gaming industry.

It doesn't surprise me one bit to see him brown-nosing EA and approving of their scummy business practices.

 

[Barbacoatl]

This thread proves how the people behind the games are a reflection of them.

 

[vikingvessel]

This thread proves how the people behind the games are a reflection of them.

Who are you referring to? Cliff or the person above you who couldn't make their point without calling him a douchebag [and has now toned it down to "guy"]

 

[Dark Octave]

Consider the source. This is the same douchebag who boldly defended on-disc DLC, claiming that it is a "necessary evil" in the gaming industry.

It doesn't surprise me one bit to see him brown-nosing EA and approving of their scummy business practices.

I don't see anything wrong with on disc DLC. Resolves compatibility issues, saves hard drive space and in reality doesn't matter one way or another if it's on the disc or in the air. DLC is a common practice nowadays. What does it matter if it's planned from the start or an afterthought, it's going to happen either way. So if it saves me time, hard drive space and game related issues then I'm all for it.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Who are you referring to? Cliff or the person above you who couldn't make their point without calling him a douchebag [and has now toned it down to "guy"]

I was talking about developers.

 

[vikingvessel]

I was talking about developers.

Thanks for clearing that one up. One more: what does him calling Cliff a douchebag tell you about the people who buy the games?

 

[Hilti92]

Just because I don't have a job and I'm sleeping until noon every day doesn't mean I no longer care about my first love...video games.

WILL U MAIL ME SIGNED COPY OF GEARS? I WILL PAY 1 BILLION MSP.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Thanks for clearing that one up. One more: what does him calling Cliff a douchebag tell you about the people who buy the games?

Absolutely nothing, because this is a message board on the Internet.

 

[vikingvessel]

Absolutely nothing, because this is a message board on the Internet.

Yet it was a fitting enough criteria for a revelation about developers. Sounds a little hypocritical, though you did answer for them.

 

[funkystudent]

Cliffy is a cool dude but I think he is starting to go a little stir crazy with all his free time.

 

[Femmeworth]

Cliffy is a cool dude but I think he is starting to go a little stir crazy with all his free time.

Probably should put some of that time towards taking some political science, economic, and business courses.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Thanks for clearing that one up. One more: what does him calling Cliff a douchebag tell you about the people who buy the games?

It tells me he considers him a douchebag, can't say about the rest.

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Thanks for clearing that one up. One more: what does him calling Cliff a douchebag tell you about the people who buy the games?

If you're trying to make a point, you're not really getting anywhere. You do, however, (and for whatever reason) seem to be caught up in the fact that I called the man a douchebag; so much so that you've completely ignored the overall message that I conveyed: that Cliff Bleszinski, a member of the industry who has already defended scummy business practices in the past is, unsurprisingly, coming to their aid again and you should therefore "consider the source" before taking his side.

 

[bhlaab]

what is his point exactly? He's for 'voting with your wallet', which he treats as sagely advice although I question how many people are actually out there buying things they hate on a regular basis.

He just seems to be against the fact that people are voicing their dissatisfaction, which is sort of a petty thing to write an essay about.

And then halfway through he makes a really lame appeal to the heartstrings with the air-tight argument "You should pay more money for the same amount of content because you just love us so much! We're the gatekeepers to magical fun! Remember nintendo cereal? Remember being six years old and feeling optimistic? That is why you should pay 500MS points to put a top hat on Marcus Fenix."

 

[Chubzdoomer]

I don't see anything wrong with on disc DLC. Resolves compatibility issues, saves hard drive space and in reality doesn't matter one way or another if it's on the disc or in the air. DLC is a common practice nowadays. What does it matter if it's planned from the start or an afterthought, it's going to happen either way. So if it saves me time, hard drive space and game related issues then I'm all for it.

Judging by the bolded portions of your post, you seem to have come to accept being screwed over and are therefore complacent with the current situation. As a result, there isn't much I can say to sway your opinion. I will, however, redirect you to this video in which Jim Sterling exposes the "on-disc DLC is a necessary evil" nonsense for what it is in hopes that you'll get something from it and see things as they actually are rather than as they're explained to you by the very people who make a living scamming you.

 

[vikingvessel]

If you're trying to make a point, you're not really getting anywhere. You do, however, (and for whatever reason) seem to be caught up in the fact that I called the man a douchebag; so much so that you've completely ignored the overall message that I conveyed: that Cliff Bleszinski, a member of the industry who has already defended scummy business practices in the past is, unsurprisingly, coming to their aid again and you should therefore "consider the source" before taking his side.

Yes, the most that I took away from your post was that you made your point poorly. That you had to call him a douchebag was weak and you knew it and went back and changed it. Simply because I am not in here calling people names doesn't mean I missed a thing. You calling him a douchebag is plenty telling and I thought that was frowned upon around here. And as far as what they are doing being considered scummy, that will depend upon who you ask. And we continue to see the same rehashed insults toward those who disagree.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Yes, the most that I took away from your post was that you made your point poorly. That you had to call him a douchebag was weak and you knew it and went back and changed it. Simply because I am not in here calling people names doesn't mean I missed a thing. You calling him a douchebag is plenty telling and I thought that was frowned upon around here. And as far as what they are doing being considered scummy, that will depend upon who you ask. And we continue to see the same rehashed insults toward those who disagree.

Sadly, the developer started flinging shit (liberal art majors durr) so that partially ruined any chance for serious and respectful discussion. Both parties are biased in their interests, so there's not much room for honest exchange really. The advice to vote with your wallet is solid tho'.

 

[TheSeks]

I especially liked this part of Cliffy's post:



But why, Cliff? After all, making money and running a business is not inherently evil. It creates jobs and growth and puts food on the table. This country was built on entrepreneurship.

If you don’t like Gamestop, don’t sell your games through them. If you don’t like their business practices, don’t help them make money. It’s that simple. Gamestop has many smart people working for them and they wouldn’t attempt these things if they didn’t work. Turns out, they do. I assure you there are teams of analysts studying the numbers behind publisher behavior over there that are studying how you, the developer, distributes his games.

Why are you offended then? Oh I see, because it's not some anonymous mass of consumers that has to pay the price, it's you and your company. Funny how that changes things.

Yo, damnnnnnn.

I sometimes wonder why the industry doesn't look to Valve (who have 2 supremely successful microtransaction based products) for lessons on how to deal with microtransactions.

It's because doing right by their community is pretty high up on their priority list, right next to making money. They never let these things affect the game design. Their microtransactions involve letting players wear funny looking hats in their games. If they sell weapons, they give players 3 more options to acquire those same weapons without paying for them. TF2 launched with 6 maps in 2007 and today it has 50 official maps with many new game modes, and all this was added for free. Over the years, the game has had over 250 patches which add features and balance. They support mods and custom servers for all their games, they share profits with map makers and content creators, they engage their community with tournaments and ingame events. This is why they have communities for their games 10 years after they released. They don't abandon their games after 2 patches and start working on the sequel.

Cliff, if you're wondering why gamers consider them Good Guy Valve, this is the reason.

Correct. Just look at the Uncharted 3 Fiasco 2 Play. They want disc/online pass owners to rebuy the online pass because it's a "different SKU so it won't work" which is bullshit since the trophy list and save will read your disc/"different SKU" version but not let you access it because they removed a bunch of shit to nickle and dime the "free-to-play" players while screwing over legacy/"fanbase."

And then GAF (myself included) point this out but "oh well, we don't want thousands of used copies flooding the market to where someone can get easy access to getting around our free-to-play."

Welp. Seems they don't want to foster a community and try to get people to buy things without having to make them buy an online pass twice. So...

(And speaking of which, Q3A/"Quake Live" is F2P but apparently failing because they're going an ad-supported route and can't really get people on board with that. So really, it seems like cosmetic items like TF2's hats are the route to go with free to play instead of "pay to win/pay to get modes/pay to unlock level cap/pay to get a hard-drive version of a game you own on disc because we don't want to grand father you in, lololololol")

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Yes, the most that I took away from your post was that you made your point poorly. That you had to call him a douchebag was weak and you knew it and went back and changed it. Simply because I am not in here calling people names doesn't mean I missed a thing. You calling him a douchebag is plenty telling and I thought that was frowned upon around here. And as far as what they are doing being considered scummy, that will depend upon who you ask. And we continue to see the same rehashed insults toward those who disagree.

If that's all you took away from my post -- if that's really it, every bit of it -- then perhaps you should put on your big-boy pants before reading anything else I have to say in the future, because I'm going to tell you right now that some of it might be naughty and not all of it will be nice. I make no apologies for speaking my mind and telling you what I think of the man and why I think it.

It absolutely disgusts me that we, the consumers are being treated worse as time goes on. It also disgusts me that when someone like Cliffy B., an industry guru notorious for defending questionable-at-best practices, comes along and tells us that it's all okay and that we should understand that it's necessary, there are average Joes silly enough to soak it all up and believe every word that he says. Have you not learned from the past? Have you not seen what they're doing? Even Bleszinski said in the opening paragraphs of his rant that money comes first and foremost, and I'll guarantee you that whether it be Cliffy B. telling us that it's all okay or one of EA's head honchos claiming that consumers are in love with microtransactions, it's all just crap being served to you by the truckload to make you settle down and believe that if you just accept these things, it will all be okay (and that everyone else accepts and approves of them, too).

 

[JackDT]

Chris Remo's twitter summarizes the issue in a single sentence.

Dylan: It's great that someone with as much clout as @therealcliffyb has the balls to remind people that the game business is in fact a business!

Remo: Pretty sure we're all reminded of that day in, day out, to a fairly disgusting degree.

Dylan: I think you'd be surprised just how little understanding & acknowledgement many people have that it's a business.

Remo: Should they? I love reading and I'm glad I don't constantly filter that through "books are a business."

https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/307712747758571520

 

[vikingvessel]

Sadly, the developer started flinging shit (liberal art majors durr) so that partially ruined any chance for serious and respectful discussion. Both parties are biased in their interests, so there's not much room for honest exchange really. The advice to vote with your wallet is solid tho'.

As far as honest, Cliff first enters at #12 to have a go at #8 for wishing that he would stop talking [as a result of something Cliff mentioned outside of this forum and was brought over by someone other than Cliff] I agree with points on both sides, though the way some of them are being made is embarrassing. What does his car have to do with any of this? In the interest of benefit of the doubt we can pretend it isn't childish envy, but it still reflects poorly on this forum. Hive or not, this forum deserves better.

 

[SapientWolf]

Chris Remo's twitter summarizes the issue in a single sentence.



https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/307712747758571520

Remo is a pretty awesome dude.

That's just the tip of the iceberg on a conversation that the Thumbs have had many times about this sort of thing, and I'm sure they mentally roll their eyes when they hear stuff like this. They're good at analyzing and articulating these issues on a really deep level.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

Sadly, the developer started flinging shit (liberal art majors durr) so that partially ruined any chance for serious and respectful discussion. Both parties are biased in their interests, so there's not much room for honest exchange really. The advice to vote with your wallet is solid tho'.

If internet forum posters are going to dish it out, and they do mercilessly and relentlessly, then they should be able to take some of it back. I'm glad he came in here and said TOO BAD MOTHERFUCKER!, because first it was funny, and second that poster deserved it.

The vote with your wallet thing, though, is a stale and boring argument.

 

[Dark Octave]

Judging by the bolded portions of your post, you seem to have come to accept being screwed over and are therefore complacent with the current situation. As a result, there isn't much I can say to sway your opinion. I will, however, redirect you to this video in which Jim Sterling exposes the "on-disc DLC is a necessary evil" nonsense for what it is in hopes that you'll get something from it and see things as they actually are rather than as they're explained to you by the very people who make a living scamming you.

He says that DLC isn't necessary and doesn't need to be there while gamers complain that they want a reason to keep the game and not sell it off after they are done with it.

"Make the greatest game the world has ever known and maybe I won't resell your game!" Everything gets old after a while. Doesn't matter if it's the greatest highest rated game ever made, a movie or a book. Eventually we all exhaust all it has to offer, get bored and move on. DLC is necessary as a quick and "cheap" way to keep fans interested in the same game longer, curb resale and bridge the gap to the sequel.

If it's content that's already made and just being held until a later date, it's specifically because of this. Many arcade fighting games would hold characters and unlock them one at a time over the course of a few months. This was done to keep players coming back and keep the game from getting old. That was the arcade's form of DLC and it worked.

The best part, it's completely optional. To this day the only DLC I have ever purchased is Red Dead Redemption Zombie thing, the Mass Effect series DLC, Peggle Nights for $2 and I bought the GTAIV DLC in disc form on sale and I have played A LOT of games this generation.

I don't really care for DLC personally, it's the same to me as micro transactions, but I understand why they exist. Nobody is screwing me over. You don't like the practice, don't buy it, I don't. Simple as that.

 

[Barbacoatl]

As far as honest, Cliff first enters at #12 to have a go at #8 for wishing that he would stop talking [as a result of something Cliff mentioned outside of this forum and was brought over by someone other than Cliff] I agree with points on both sides, though the way some of them are being made is embarrassing. What does his car have to do with any of this? In the interest of benefit of the doubt we can pretend it isn't childish envy, but it still reflects poorly on this forum. Hive or not, this forum deserves better.

Agreed, bashing unrelated personal traits is in poor form, just as casually throwing around mom insults is. Not surprising given the nature of the games, hence my initial comment.

 

[vikingvessel]

If that's all you took away from my post -- if that's really it, every bit of it -- then perhaps you should put on your big-boy pants before reading anything else I have to say in the future, because I'm going to tell you right now that some of it might be naughty and not all of it will be nice. I make no apologies for speaking my mind and telling you what I think of the man and why I think it.

It absolutely disgusts me that we, the consumers are being treated worse as time goes on. It also disgusts me that when someone like Cliffy B., an industry guru notorious for defending questionable-at-best practices, comes along and tells us that it's all okay and that we should understand that it's necessary, there are average Joes silly enough to soak it all up and believe every word that he says. Have you not learned from the past? Have you not seen what they're doing? Even Bleszinski said in the opening paragraphs of his rant that money comes first and foremost, and I'll guarantee you that whether it be Cliffy B. telling us that it's all okay or one of EA's head honchos claiming that consumers are in love with microtransactions, it's all just crap being served to you by the truckload to make you settle down and believe that if you just accept these things, it will all be okay (and that everyone else accepts and approves of them, too).

It is not because you are so edgy and bust out the big boy pants. I had initially commented before you modified what you knew you should not have said. This late in the thread you are compiling what has been said repeatedly as if only you get it. I get it, I just don't agree with all of it; yet I agree with some of it. I cannot get behind the snark tactics and piling on simply because they receive the money and must be wrong and anyone who can relate to their position is whatever the popular catch-all insult of the day is.

 

[Chubzdoomer]

I don't really care for DLC personally, it's the same to me as micro transactions, but I understand why they exist. Nobody is screwing me over. You don't like the practice, don't buy it, I don't. Simple as that.

You might believe it, but trust me when I say that if you own a game disc and there is content on that disc that is "locked out" (especially if you paid full price for that disc), as each second passes you are unquestionably being screwed over. Either you're not getting the content you should have gotten for free or, if you've made the mistake of paying for it and encouraging the continuation of such practices, have paid extra for something that shouldn't have cost you so much as a dime the moment you purchased the game from the store.

 

[Dark Octave]

You might believe it, but trust me when I say that if you own a game disc and there is content on that disc that is "locked out" (especially if you paid full price for that disc), as each second passes you are unquestionably being screwed over. Either you're not getting the content you should have gotten for free or, if you've made the mistake of paying for it and encouraging the continuation of such practices, have paid extra for something that shouldn't have cost you so much as a dime the moment you purchased the game from the store.

If the game's budget calls for that extra content to be made and set aside to be purchased as an extra later or it would have never existed in the first place, nobody is getting screwed over.

Chris Remo's twitter summarizes the issue in a single sentence.

Remo: Should they? I love reading and I'm glad I don't constantly filter that through "books are a business."

https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/307712747758571520

Tell that to people paying for college textbooks.