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Cliffy B says things about microtransactions

"You're out of ammo. Pay $1 for a new payload or wait 10 minutes."

No one wants to play this.

This is truth, but it's not all that microtransactions are. That would be an example of doing it WRONG, and I don't think they'd do much past selling a copy of the game. It wouldn't meet projections and would be considered a failure.

So, we'll see this happen. Once or twice. It happens. Another thing that happens is shit. It's just part of evolution.
 

Dyno

Member
I don't think that CliffyB's support of the business necessitates that he loves the business more than games. He's seen things from both sides of the equation and understands that there are certain necessary evils in the business side of things that happen in order to bring us the games.

I wouldn't say both sides, Cliff has clearly chosen his side. He is going to work within the existing system, even if it's a bad system. Cliff will use his talents to make the microtransactions and Seasons Passes rather than explore an alternative.
 
I think the one game "doing it right" at the moment is Planetside 2. Its free to play, and the starting weapons are all really, really good. In fact, they're going to be some of your most used weapons months later. However, there are dozens of side grades, a few upgrades, and a couple must haves in the mix. On a normal day, each weapon can cost around $7. However, they have triple cash days where you plunk down $10 for points, and you get $30 of points. There are daily sales on items for 50% off, or pack-in deals with 7 weapons for $15, etc etc etc.

The end result is that you really don't NEED to buy anything. But if you enjoy the game, really enjoy it, you're going to be buying everything they offer. You're going to wait for those triple cash days and instead of spending $10, you're going to drop $50, $75, maybe even $100. It is not uncommon to hear people talking about how they've spent hundreds on this free to play game. New content rolls out almost weekly, and a great game keeps getting even more better.

This might come off as an advertisement, and it's not meant to. But the Planetside 2 folks have "nailed it" when it comes to F2P and "microtransactions".
I haven't been able to get into it for lack of a group to run with, but last I heard, even Shawn Elliott's cheap ass has spent $75 in the game, so it has to be doing something right with its microtransaction model.
 
And when those companies are publicly traded on the stock market they’re forced to answer to their shareholders. This means that they need to make a lot of money in order to increase the value of the shareholder’s stock. Every quarter.

which means whatever anti consumer nonsense is happening now, next year it HAS to be worse.

See this is why developers are so amazingly short sighted. What happens when the publishers start crunching the numbers and realises that you actually don't need top talent for your games to sell gang busters but rather only need it to be "good enough"

I want to read developers posts defending this stuff when your jobs are being given to the hungry kid who will work for pennies or outsourced overseas.

Profit doesn't just come from increased sales. It comes from reducing costs too cliffy.

If you are going to defend publisher and shareholder greed, you better take a hard look at every other industry out there that is persuing a pure profit motive. Everyone is a insidious race to the bottom with the losers not only being the consumers, but also the creators of quailty product.

expect more RE:ORC and A:CM not less.
 

Philthy

Member
I haven't been able to get into it for lack of a group to run with, but last I heard, even Shawn Elliott's cheap ass has spent $75 in the game, so it has to be doing something right with its microtransaction model.

Being in a decent outfit is certainly going to make the experience a million times better. The rewards of having even a half organized group of people has eclipsed even the greatest moments I had running with uber guilds in the EQ and WoW.
 

syllogism

Member
People keep referring to the rights of consumers; is the term being used in a legal sense or just to allude to the fact that you are viewing things from consumers point of view (e.g. more value per dollar spent). If you mean the former, what kind of legal rights do you think consumers have, or alternatively ought to have, and how are they relevant when applied to the gaming industry?
 
I am going to try my best to avoid invoking Natural's Law in this post, but we'll see how it goes.

Let's start at the beginning.


No one denies that businesses exist to make money. The entire point of the position you're arguing against is that there are good ways to make money and bad ways to make money. There are are business models that a pro-consumer and anti-consumer. The problem arises when you start to use the "free market" as a "free pass." The mere fact that a business needs to make money is not an inherent and impenetrable defense for all of the actions that business decides to take in order to further that goal. Snake oil salesmen were trying to make money as well.

This "free market" defense is tied to Cliffy's later argument, so I'll save the rest of the problems with that for later.


This is not because developers and publishers are doing gamers a favor by releasing cheap games. It's because:
1. Demand for video games is relatively elastic, particularly in the weak economy of the past few years. This is also why used game sales are so popular. If publishers thought they could get away with a higher sticker price, they would hike that price up.
2. Older game prices were artificially inflated by the costs of the cartridge media they were shipped on.


This is a cute comparison game makers love to make, largely because movies are the only form of entertainment media with which the value comparison works. Unfortunately, the comparison completely falls apart when you bring television or books into the equation, let alone service-based entertainment like Netflix or Hulu.


Aside from a brief moment where Cliffy confuses extravagance of budget for quality of content, a misconception shared by movie titans like Michael Bay, this is basically just saying that games are expensive to make, and therefore companies need to make money.

Of course they do. But again, no one is saying they don't. There are good ways to go about it, and bad ways to go about it.


This is where we can see CliffyB's unwillingness to look past the most obvious surface similarities coming back to bite him. Yes, Valve and EA are both companies. Yes, they both conduct business with the goal of making money. If you want to put more thought into this subject than a third-grader, however, it's quite easy to see where the difference lies.

1.There is a difference between adding microtransactions to a free product in order to make money from it and adding microtransactions to a product for which the customer has already paid 60 dollars. This should be self-evident.
2. There is also a difference between charging for optional cosmetic items and charging for game content. Video games are an interactive medium. This means content that effects the interactivity of the game is fundamentally different from content that only effects the visual look of the game. In Team Fortress 2, for example, Valve makes all items that effect the interactivity of the game (weapons, maps, game modes) available to players for free. The "ring" you're speaking of is an example of the cosmetic items Valve sells that have no impact on the actual gameplay.

Valve put up this web page detailing the 119 free updates (both patches and increased content) they had made to Team Fortress 2. That was three years ago, and they still haven't stopped.

We know exactly how EA responds in a similar situation. Battlefield 3 was a 60 dollar product, and they ask the user base to pay for every additional set of maps and content.

If you bought TF2 on day one, it's price was 20 bucks. Final price for experiencing all of its content is 20 bucks. If you bought Battlefield 3 on day one, its price was 60 bucks. Final price for experiencing all of its content is upwards of 110 bucks.

But nope, no difference there.


Another strawman. No one's saying that making money is inherently evil. It's not an inherent good, either. Commerce is, in and of itself, a morally neutral concept. It comes down to the way you go about it.

I do find it interesting that CliffyB lambasts those who think that running a business is inherently evil, while using "it's a business" as an inherent good that supposedly makes complaints irrelevant.


Yes. Steam sucked at first. People hated it at first. So why are you surprised that people hate EA's offering at first?

Also, two things:
1. Origin is not competing with the Steam of 2004. It's competing with the Steam of 2013. "They also had crappy service nearly a decade ago" is not a valid defense of current product/platform policies, prices and performance.
2. Origin isn't that new. Everybody in the games press and industry fell for the rebranding, I guess. I still remember EA Download Manager, even if you guys don't.


Different people, obviously, than the ones complaining about it. This is just more "don't like it, don't buy it" nonsense, though.


"A lot of people don't care" is not a statement that has any bearing on the rightness or wrongness of any situation.


I love Free 2 Play. I've got no less than 5 F2P games installed on my hard drive right now.

Just like everything else, there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.

And all of it is different than adding microtransactions to a game that the customer is already paying money for.


The games industry is not the same as the music industry, first of all. I hate to break it to you. There are many, many ways in which they have faced and will face entirely different situations. This post is already long as hell so I won't go into them.


Another strawman. No one is suggesting that all games should be used games. (Not that this makes sense even as a hypothetical. If everyone bought games used, there'd be no new buyers to get used games from.) However, as I've said before, there's a right way and a wrong way.


People didn't have to buy snake oil, either. That doesn't mean the snake oil salesman wasn't shady for selling it.


I don't think you're remembering this correctly, Cliff.


Great.

Also irrelevant.


Hey, uh...

Arcades are dead, man. A very large reason for that because people realized that it was more convenient for them to go buy the home console version of the arcade game, pay that one-time fee and access everything at their own pace.


So here's his bottom line: if you don't like it, don't buy it. The implication is that if everyone votes with their dollars, the free market will take care of itself.

The only problem is that it doesn't work that way, has never worked that way, and will never work that way.

The free market is not a perfect self-correcting entity. If you think a business is being scummy about what they're offering, the correct response is to both not buy what they're selling and spread the word that they're being scummy and why.

Ask yourself this: why do organisms like the Food and Drug Administration and the SEC exist, accusations of corruption aside? Why do we try to break up monopolies whenever possible? It's because there are certain things the free market is not good at, protecting consumers chief among them.

There are many, MANY things that "vote with your wallet" will not solve. In theory, the free market should weed out any unsafe medicines that make it to store shelves eventually, so let's get rid of all safety checks and vote with our wallets. Companies defrauding people on a scale to match Enron? Don't like it, don't buy the stock. It'll work itself out eventually. A company has a monopoly on a necessary product? Don't worry about it, you don't need oil anyway. Vote with your wallet. That guy's running a pyramid scheme? Whatever, man. No need to get your panties all in a bunch. Don't like it, don't join it. No need to broadcast why it's a bad idea or anything.



Excellent post. I appreciate your understanding as to why the totality of "speaking with your wallet" is a ridiculous premise.




I think the one game "doing it right" at the moment is Planetside 2. Its free to play, and the starting weapons are all really, really good. In fact, they're going to be some of your most used weapons months later.

When I quit PS2 one of the factions (Terrans) had a definitely superior gun to the other two and it was being bought and spammed.

Google shows lots of "PS2 is a success" stories, so outside of balance issues, at least they have that going for them.





Really wish Ghost Recon Online was a success because it's cover system is the tits.
 

sflufan

Banned
People keep referring to the rights of consumers; is the term being used in a legal sense or just to allude to the fact that you are viewing things from consumers point of view (e.g. more value per dollar spent). If you mean the former, what kind of legal rights do you think consumers have, or alternatively ought to have, and how are they relevant when applied to the gaming industry?

They have to be viewing it from a "perception" viewpoint rather than a legal one because nothing that's happening is violating ANY legal consumer rights whatsoever.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
The problem is most publishers don't take defeat very kindly

They will force their archaic model just by hammering into everything

That is why EA stands out

They are always LTTP on what's happening, changing shifts in the industry

F2P becomes popular, EA tries to bastardize it
Freemium/Paymium pops up, EA chases that cash
Mobile gets strong, once again EA tries to catch up
Social, etc
Sooner or later all the models start merging and start seeping into the $60 retail business

Take Dead Space for an example

Dead Space was created to fill a hole in Survival Horror, it sold really well for EA, so a sequel was asked for
DS2 took a slight turn, due to the market going gun happy with Bro Shooters and cut content or held back content, then we get DLC afterwards to get a final result
DS3 now follows the new "micro-transaction" model of giving the user heads tarts or if get stuck and option to Pay to Win
Add in Co-Op, now DLC which will give you a true ending, and further enhancements that have yet to come or been announced

This is not evolving your franchise, it side-grading it up

I bet EA will be the first company to have the full bastardization of every model in one game

$69.99, $9.99 online pass, $0.99 "micro-transactions", $4.99 packs, $7.99 maps, $9.99 DLC, $14.99 Expansion, $19.99 Unlock Upgrade/Time Saver Keys, $49.99 Premium
(Oh and you have 2 years from release date of title before servers shutdown, LOL read your EULA)

So to get the full experience it will cost roughly $200 over a 2 1 year time (well they will want you to move to the next year hotness)... That's only $8.33 $16.66 per moth guys!
 

Azih

Member
We need to come to grips with the simple fact that high production high value games are expensive.

Inflation wise we've been getting a pretty sweet deal on game prices for the last few years. That's not sustainable.

Hiding story ending segments behind DLC is all kinds of ass though.
 

J-Rod

Member
I'd like to think most people know how the world works and don't need ten paragraphs of someone being a condescending asshole to explain it. It reads like an angry forum rant. He is a talented and successful person and I'm really glad for him, but it sounds like all this free time is getting to him a little.
 

syllogism

Member
All Htown established is that "voting with your wallet" is an unworkable premise (for solving these specific issues) in industries where unethical or criminal business practices can lead to very real and harmful consequences before the market forces can even theoretically correct the problem. These industries need to be regulated. What he did not show is that voting with your wallet is unworkable in general.
 
Micro transactions are not adapting or changing with the market. Micro transactions are a way to force the current (and fantastically failing) methods of producing games to continue to work. Micro transactions prop up the industry, not change it. It's a slow death.

I play a lot of MMO's so it may be that that particular market is where I see Micro-transactions as adaptation and it could be clouding my view when it's applied to the Console market. I can see your point of view though with Production being as expensive as it is. It's definitely problematic but it seems like a bit of Catch 22 for major publishers though. The last few years have certainly seen a lot of love given to smaller games that aren't graphically amazing but as we easily see now that we're on the cusp of a new gen.. people have high expectations for the technology to advance. Better graphics, animation, etc.. are still a big deal. Can big publishers realistically put out major titles without pushing the envelope (and thus the pricetag) and expect that not to be held against them?

It's largely a problem with the market in a public sphere. Stock holders are rarely interested in playing the long game. Any CEO trying to actually adapt their company will see backlash from stock brokers (and they also have to face the fact that doing so may mean a smaller paycheck for him or herself and many other big names).

No one wants to change because of how it negatively affects them. Even minutely. So they'll exploit and prop up a business model that will eventually crash and burn and take them with it.

Here I wholeheartedly agree. Shareholders inevitably ruin businesses with the short term profit mindset which ruins the quality of the product.

Honestly, I am more or less drawing a conclusion. However, I am of the opinion that micro transactions do not benefit a game in any way. Or, largely, at least (but not every game came be run like TF2). We even have tons of evidence about how micro transactions hurt the actual game, and I've read many reports that F2P games haven't exactly set the whole world on fire (I've read that Tribes, Hawken, and even Planetside have not reached projections). I largely think the "success" of F2P games is seen on tablets, phones, and a few PC games. I don't think we'll see it translate well to the console space at all.

Well there's a lot of factors to these things but I'd be hesitant to say that Micro-transactions haven't worked or have hurt these games. I'm of the firm belief that the majority of these types of games would die completely if they went with the previous pricing standards. People are no longer willing to pay up front and then pay a subscription for games that do not have thousands upon thousands of hours of content available.


Largely, point being, there is plenty of evidence that I've seen that contradicts CliffyB. I don't think he's unaware of it and the language he uses is focused disproportionately in favor of making sure Activision, EA, etc do well. Not their games.

As far as BF, Madden, CoD, etc go, who cares if EA lives if Battlefield 4 is a microtransaction hell hole?

"You're out of ammo. Pay $1 for a new payload or wait 10 minutes."

No one wants to play this.

When you put it this way, I think I discover why I have trouble seeing it the same way as you, Jim, and others see it because I have trouble with slippery slope logic. That's not to say that I don't think it's possible, as it's happened plenty of times before... I just don't think that it's really all that probable in most cases. But thanks for your responses. It's helped me see the reasoning behind your and others stances.
 

Mononoke

Banned
I am going to try my best to avoid invoking Natural's Law in this post, but we'll see how it goes.

Let's start at the beginning.

Wow, this was a really fantastic post.

Thanks for taking the time to write it up. I have to admit, while my stance was pretty much similar to yours - there were aspects to this post that I had not considered. Specifically, the part about how free markets aren't always the best at protecting the consumer (hence why we have to break up monopolies, and have regulations etc.). Also, I've always found it bizarre that people think consumers should stop "complaining" and only vote with their money. So your post really took that on, and explained why that argument is wrong. I think that was, essentially what Jim Sterling was also arguing. And I agree 100% with both of you on this. Well played. I would be interested to see Cliffy's reply on this. I hope he doesn't duck it, and seriously offers a rebuttal.
 
I play a lot of MMO's so it may be that that particular market is where I see Micro-transactions as adaptation and it could be clouding my view when it's applied to the Console market. I can see your point of view though with Production being as expensive as it is. It's definitely problematic but it seems like a bit of Catch 22 for major publishers though. The last few years have certainly seen a lot of love given to smaller games that aren't graphically amazing but as we easily see now that we're on the cusp of a new gen.. people have high expectations for the technology to advance. Better graphics, animation, etc.. are still a big deal. Can big publishers realistically put out major titles without pushing the envelope (and thus the pricetag) and expect that not to be held against them?



Here I wholeheartedly agree. Shareholders inevitably ruin businesses with the short term profit mindset which ruins the quality of the product.



Well there's a lot of factors to these things but I'd be hesitant to say that Micro-transactions haven't worked or have hurt these games. I'm of the firm belief that the majority of these types of games would die completely if they went with the previous pricing standards. People are no longer willing to pay up front and then pay a subscription for games that do not have thousands upon thousands of hours of content available.




When you put it this way, I think I discover why I have trouble seeing it the same way as you, Jim, and others see it because I have trouble with slippery slope logic. That's not to say that I don't think it's possible, as it's happened plenty of times before... I just don't think that it's really all that probable in most cases. But thanks for your responses. It's helped me see the reasoning behind your and others stances.



Hopefully we'll see different markets adopt it in different ways. I've played very few F2P MMORPGs but I don't recall feeling like they were not a good value.

Pretty much my opinion on micro transactions is a result of playing F2P FPS games and how it's being done on handhelds.

I "extrapolate" that experience to consoles largely because the same players in the iPhone and F2P FPS scene are the same that will be building similar games for next gen consoles. I agree that it is kind of a "slippery slope" argument. It's certainly possible that some of the abuses we see on the mobile/tablet market never make it console side.

And thanks for your response as well. I hadn't thought to look at it from an MMO type perspective.
 

Vilam

Maxis Redwood
I've enjoyed Cliff's input over the years on NeoGAF but the guy has revealed a deep bias towards the industry. He's become an apologist in fact. I'm sure EA and all the other big companies would love to have him, seeing that his point of view lines up with theirs so very nicely.

You think most devs don't feel the same way? There's an ignorance to the business side of the industry amongst gamers and a complete misunderstanding of what it actually takes to make a game that you'll simply never understand (or believe) as an outsider.
 

Sanctuary

Member
People keep paying for microtransactions, so it is pretty clear that the market wants it.

There's a difference between wanting, and feeling like you're missing out on content. It's more weighing whether or not the "added" (withheld) content is worth the extra cost over what you already paid. I doubt the majority of people who pay for DLC actually want it in it's current form.

I'm not talking about obvious things like alternate costumes or weapons that aren't anything special other than a different model either.
 

Nokterian

Member
Psychological warfare is an excellent phrase. With all respect to Cliffy, as a lifelong gamer and somebody who loves this medium, I shutter at how perverted game design is going to become. With always connected games, they're going to have unlimited data and between psychologists and economists, it's going to be distilled into the most cynical formula possible.

As for his mini-rant about EA bad, Valve good. Valve is giving TF2 and Dota 2 away for free. And the items being sold aren't game altering or necessary. They're cosmetic. I don't think most people would have issues with this. If this is sustainable, it's actually preferable in many ways to the current mulitplayer format. But even if this does become the market standard, the exploitation in single-player is still going to occur. And in the end, it's going to become game design at its most cynical.

And that's what i like about Dota 2,since Gaben all ready said same thing with TF2 that the community is providing more content that Valve never ever could make,valve is only doing updates and making the game. And that's why those cosmetics are pretty good. Looking at Dota 2 how people make amazing sets for the hero's. Those F2P games like Dota 2 and TF2 have more potential then like say SWTOR,almost everything behind a paywall.
 

Philthy

Member
we gotta find a way to sell second hand dlc

that will fuck cliffy and his EA buddies up

Well, EU just did pass that law that any and all software licenses must be allowed to be sold and transferred. This includes iTunes music, DLC, Steam Games, OS that is "tied" to your Dell, etc. They will kind of have to go with the flow and allow it for everyone, or just not sell to the EU, which will be impossible.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
I'd like to think most people know how the world works and don't need ten paragraphs of someone being a condescending asshole to explain it. It reads like an angry forum rant. He is a talented and successful person and I'm really glad for him, but it sounds like all this free time is getting to him a little.

with the exception that once you post on a forum you're generally forced to defend it, not retreat behind a twitter firewall to your harem of starry eyed ring ticklers.

it says something about his belief in his own convictions though, someone looking at three aces doesn't fold because there's a jack in the flop.
 

Speevy

Banned
Ermm, what? Who decides that a genre is more important than others? Button games are inherently better you say? FALSE. Touch-only games are inherently better? FALSE. It depends on the game, it depends on the genre..

Flexibility in game design makes for better games. You have fewer options in creating touch screen games, in all genres.
 
When you put it this way, I think I discover why I have trouble seeing it the same way as you, Jim, and others see it because I have trouble with slippery slope logic. That's not to say that I don't think it's possible, as it's happened plenty of times before... I just don't think that it's really all that probable in most cases. But thanks for your responses. It's helped me see the reasoning behind your and others stances.
It's not slippery slope logic if there's evidence of it already happening on other platforms though. The iPhone has been host to these types of games for years; for example, where you pay now for extra lives or wait an extended time period to play later.

It's easy to see why some people don't want this infiltrating their hobby, I don't want to have to start paying for lives i.e. the old arcade system way.
 

nel e nel

Member
They have to be viewing it from a "perception" viewpoint rather than a legal one because nothing that's happening is violating ANY legal consumer rights whatsoever.

Yeah, was about to comment on this. Consumer rights has historically referred to not putting out products that are potentially harmful with out proper warning labels and what not.

Think cars without seatbelts, cigarettes without lung cancer/pregnancy warnings, ingredient listings on food items, etc.
 

Nokterian

Member
Cliffy is on roll today. In 6 minutes 6 tweets about this topic.

herewegookrbh.gif
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Yup, not surprising though, twitter is a great platform for spouting stuff and then not defending it in actual discussion with other people.

He's pulled a Dyack here. Dyack would always disappear when his viewpoint was soundly defeated and he could offer no counter point. Better to just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist.
 
i liked the part where he compared video games to night clubs and amusement parks, well-known bastions of sensible and beloved prices
 
i liked the part where he compared video games to night clubs and amusement parks, well-known bastions of sensible and beloved prices

Cliffy B said:
One key to the industry's future is to create quality core free to play games, like League of Legends.

You know, with all of this love Cliff seems to have for the microtransaction / "paymium" model, I think it's a 100% guarantee at this point that his next game will heavily feature this bullshit.
 

JABEE

Member
Publishers: Vote with your dollar, because we know that your dollar doesn't amount to much. We will be able to coerce uninformed users into opening their wallets for microtransactions. Yo will have to just take what the masses accept as something that is adequate.

I don't think you are being honest when you say that to a minority that is internet gaming forum dwellers. It is better for you and the rest of the industry for them not to complain because it could infect the overall discourse and pre-release hype for a game. I think gamers will and should still complain about business models that they believe are damaging to their enjoyment of games overall.

It isn't a creator or publisher's right to control the message of how an audience should react. It's nice to see writers react to their audience in the name of consumer adequacy. They don't usually have to worry about things like Xbox Live Subscriptions or playing one game long enough to notice the effect microtransactions have had on the industry.

It's better when the enthusiast press is indifferent or defensive of the harsh realities of being a gamer during this era. I'm almost positive that these perks are given to the press for that very reason.
 

Perkel

Banned
Also i don't get this: "Vote with you, wallet or shut up."

I am consumer so i will speak about it. Not only that but also i will tell my friends that game XYZ sucks because of that.
 

inky

Member
We need a CliffyB Daily.

at least he is talking about interesting topics.

There's nothing interesting about yet another developer masturbating over free to play, and how it allows them to rake in the profits while cutting out thiefs retail and second hand sales, as if software was somehow special. All while adopting the most condescending tone pretending people who complain are just haters without knowledge of how money works and what are businesses all about.

If he talked in detail about why AI is fucking stagnant in games that cost 60 million+ to make or why they insist on keeping up with the ludonarrative dissonance in games at the expense of the quality of the experience then that would be interesting. It's funny because the answer to both those issues probably has to do with market "realities" and profit margins too.
 

Jackben

bitch I'm taking calls.
There's nothing interesting about yet another developer masturbating over free to play, and how it allows them to rake in the profits while cutting out thiefs retail and second hand sales, as if software was somehow special. All while adopting the most condescending tone pretending people who complain are just haters without knowledge of how money works and what are businesses all about.

If he talked in detail about why AI is fucking stagnant in games that cost 60 million+ to make or why they insist on keeping up with the ludonarrative dissonance in games at the expense of the quality of the experience then that would be interesting. It's funny because the answer to both those issues probably has to do with market "realities" and profit margins too.
How about a developer trolling the shit out of gaming side on NeoGAF? Patcher is a busy man, someone has to pick up the slack every now and then.
 
Some really high-quality posts in this thread, well done people. It's fun seeing an (admittedly poorly constructed) argument being deconstructed in such a thorough manner.
 
Been saying this for ages, and always get flamed on this forum because of it. Hasn't made me stop saying it though. Why stop speaking truth just because people don't like to hear it?
 

Bleepey

Member
I remember when Capcom got burnt when they put Freemium bullshit in premium content. Tell me Capcom, on disc DLC, paying for costumes and pay to win gems how did that work for you? Vote with your wallet, it will teach entitled developers that entitled gamers don't have to spend their money on entitled developers.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Cliff and other publishers need to stop having the mentality that the videogame industry is like a casino, the main way to earn profit shouldn't be through a projection of how much micro shit people will be willing to buy.
 
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