Do you think that politics have moved significantly to the left or right since Blair left?
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Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn, Half Shadow cabinet expected to resign today (Labour)
- Thread starter Tak3n
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Do you think that politics have moved significantly to the left or right since Blair left?
I agree the party needs to adapt - that was my point. A decent part of the activist base, particulary Corbyns base, are still obsessed with Blair and consider anything he did Tory-lite that is only fit for mockery and condemning. Despite the objective evidence that large parts of the population that did vote labour and now vote Tory still rate Blair, and that Blair accomplished things labour has wanted to do for decades.
The party needs to move past Blair in a healthy way - acknowledge the good and the bad, learn from both the mistakes but also the incredible election winning coalition he assembled, and then move forward. Pretending he is the devil doesn't help them.
I don't think it is useful or productive to project politics on to a line with one end labelled "left" and the other "right". Regardless, I am heartbroken by what has happened to the country over the last ten years, especially in this referendum. That is why I want a competent Labour party.
Agreed.
blair's britain was incredibly pro-european co-operation and very open towards the benefits of immigration too which most people on the liberal-left take for granted these days but probably won't in thirty years time after the political ramifications of brexit have played out
30yearsofhurt
Member
http://www.politico.eu/article/how-...-remain-boris-craig-oliver-jim-messina-obama/
Corbyn is a disgrace. His pride and self-righteousness contributed to Leave winning, hurting the global economy, threatening peace in Europe, potentially breaking up the UK and decimating left-wing politics in Britain.
Between the referendum, the horrible mismanagement of his party and the media, the constant whining and self-pity, the disgusting approach to anti-Semitism, he has proven why out of touch dogmatic socialists are unfit for the complexities and realities of modern government.
At least Cameron had enough sense to resign.
PJV3
Member
That one is a surprise, big friend of John McDonnell.
Yeah it's the hard left that has decimated left-wing politics lmao
Threatening peace in Europe lmao
UK needed to break up anyway.
Centre-left fucks shit up and loses contact with the working class, the hard left gets the blame. Seems about right.
Phantast2k
Member
I wonder if he'll now do a Lafontaine maneuver.
Lafontaine has been a leader and candidate of the center-left SPD and was basically considered a failure, losing to a more business-friendly Schörder-led party wing.
He then joined forces with the DDR successor party PDS to form the closed communist Left party, thereby damaging the SPD.
The SPD turned into (Tory-like) CDU's junior partner and come next election, they're likely to dip below 20%.
Couldn't Corbyn basically do the same and pull away the left-fringe vote from Labour?
Lafontaine has been a leader and candidate of the center-left SPD and was basically considered a failure, losing to a more business-friendly Schörder-led party wing.
He then joined forces with the DDR successor party PDS to form the closed communist Left party, thereby damaging the SPD.
The SPD turned into (Tory-like) CDU's junior partner and come next election, they're likely to dip below 20%.
Couldn't Corbyn basically do the same and pull away the left-fringe vote from Labour?
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Petition for his resignation
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...&source=facebook-share-button&time=1466937484
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...&source=facebook-share-button&time=1466937484
The working class voted for Blair in large numbers. The working class *still* trust Blair more than any other labour politician according to the 2015 post election research. The working class won't vote for Corbyn, and don't trust him as a leader.
The notion that the working class don't like centrist labour is completely the opposite of reality. The working class don't want hand outs, and they don't want a Labour Party obsessed with only the bottom and top 10%.
The working class don't like the hard left. They haven't for over 40 years - Thatcher won on the backs of the working class vote combined with the traditional Tory middle class base. We've presented the working class with a hard left option multiple times, and each time they've said 'no thanks'. How many times do we need to keep repeating this mistake before we realise that the hard left doesn't have enough people in it to win power, and that there's not some magic formulae of explaining what we want that will somehow persuade people after 50 years of trying and failing?
Honey Bunny
Member
120 signatures? Did you make this lmao
Fernando Fernandez
Member
I see it as a man of principles that wouldn't share a platform with someone that had repeatedly slurred him week in, week out.
LegendofJoe
Member
Why has the royal family done nothing to mitigate the fallout of the vote? Or better yet why was nothing said prior to the vote? Do they not care that their country is in crisis and devoid of leadership?
This is the precise moment when they should show their worth to the UK.
This is the precise moment when they should show their worth to the UK.
UKIP taking over the working class and the potential break-up of the UK will destroy left-wing politics.
Brexit absolutely increases the odds of the European Union crumbling apart and removing the safeguard of peace in the continent.
Corbyn's "support" of Remain and his shameful refusal to rise to the occasion absolutely hurt Remain in Labour-leaning areas. He bears part of the blame. Not as much as idiots Cameron, Johnson and Farage but still plenty of blame.
He should go immediately, and this should serve as a warning for anyone who thinks ideological purity is more important than leadership and an ability to grapple with the complexities of political reality.
Any action by the royal family would basically lead to a republic almost instantly.
The country can last without leadership for a long time. Everything still works. Taxes will be collected, salaries paid, bins picked up, streets cleaned, hospitals opened, borders managed.
The royal family is not some sort of panic button when people get unhappy. That's absolutely not what they are for anymore, and they wouldn't go near it with a thousand foot barge pole. Hell, the last time they refused Royal ascent to a bill was 1708...
Jezbollah
Member
The system is in effect to ensure the Monarchy has little "official" interference or influence in official business of the elected representatives of the people.
They will have their own private opinions, but they should not be actively looking to interject themselves into anything to do with democratic will of the people of the UK.
Their official involvement in politics in general is very much ceremonial.
Part of politics is dealing with people you don't like. If you can't do that, you are totally unfit for the job. If Gordn Brown, who was tarred and feathered by Cameron, lost his political career and his legacy due to him, as well as a humiliating election, can get on board then so can Corbyn.
Jezbollah
Member
I think you underestimate a potential 30% of their voters not voting for a Corbyn-lead Labour party...
The fate of the nation (and the world?) is more important than the ego of one thin-skinned man. Who gives a shit if he slurred him? This is politics for God's sake. If you can't handle the heat get the fuck out of the kitchen.
Notsureifserious.jpg
Do you even know how the Royal Family works in the UK? They're completely apolitical. They have to be as the Queen has to give speeches written by whatever current government. They're not even allowed to vote.
30yearsofhurt
Member
If you can't deal with people you disagree with then you're totally unfit for life in the real world if you ask me.
They are actually allowed to vote but they don't get involved in politics out of long held convention.
They can vote, they choose not to.
They wont necessarily go to UKIP though
Commander Jameson
Member
Does this apply to the PLP too?
Also, what happened with Scottish Labour stood with the Tories on the Scottish independence vote? They got annihilated.
Yes there is.
Politics isn't just moving where the electorate is, it is explaining your position to persuade people towards your position.
The very fact that some 'social-democrats' see no problem in throwing away their positions to make a chance at winning is why they are so weak today. No spine, nothing. Neglecting their roots in labour movements and activism to take the easy path.
In 5 years you guys will be telling us we have to be a little bit fascist too because that's what the electorate likes.
CyclopsRock
Member
The PLP behaved the way they have because they disagree with him and don't think he can win. Neither of those things are relevant in this context.
travisbickle
Member
Corbyn is not "Hardleft" he's a centre-left. Any party that's on the Left is for empowering the working-class and reducing the power of the capitalist class.
Tony Blair allowed the banks to accrue massive profits to fund social projects. He's right-wing through and through, or "third way" bullshit, unfortunately he's the worst kind of right-winger, one with a social conscience.
Tony Blair allowed the banks to accrue massive profits to fund social projects. He's right-wing through and through, or "third way" bullshit, unfortunately he's the worst kind of right-winger, one with a social conscience.
Jezbollah
Member
But they would be gone - and that means a decimation of Labour MPs and a whole jump in Lib Dem, UKIP and Conservative constituency wins.
FYI we're talking about 3 million votes here.
LegendofJoe
Member
Maybe it's time to refuse assent again. The public should NEVER have the opportunity to vote on something so important. The large majority of people just aren't educated enough with regards to the costs and benefits to make an informed decision.
I'm aware of this, but in situations of crisis the normal way of doing things aren't always best. They need to do or say something to help restore some semblance of faith in your government and leadership.
andythinkpad
Member
This Brexit event basically will break up both Labor and Tory parties and form 2 two pro-leave and pro-go back parties in their ash. Kind of like what the Dred Scott decision did to the Democrat and the Whig parties before the civil war.
...Im ok with this
The lack of principles also makes people less likely to believe those "social democrats" in the future. It leads to trust and authority deficits which cripple the party. Corbyn doesn't particularly like the EU and it's pretty rich to expect him to full throatedly support Remain when his convictions lie elsewhere, particularly when he's seen first hand the damage the EU did to traditional Labour.
This makes absolutely no sense.
the only time Labour won in modern history was under Blair - and it won historic, record breaking margins. Greatest success the party has ever had. On the back of that, they accomplished many great things - by no means perfect, and many mistakes made, some horrific (Iraq!). But Blair accomplished more than every Labour leader since Harold Wilson, and more than anyone since.
How come Blair managed to get the working class vote but people like Corbyn, Kinnock etc couldn't?
The people who voted labour in the 00s, who then switched to the Tories in 2010 and 2015, still trust Blair more than any other labour leader according to the research done post election. The evidence seems to suggest completely the opposite of what you are saying.
If Blair was so trust worthy and so popular then his party wouldn't have voted in large numbers for Brexit.
Just because one man is more popular than a bag of flaming shit doesn't make him a good reference
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
You have no idea what voters think because you're not involved in talking to them or campaigning for their vote. You get second, third, fourth hand information from news and social media. The mood across the country is fiercely anti-immigration and Labour cannot get it's voice heard because the man on the street thinks Corbyn is a joke. We aren't even at the adults table any more.
Is there really any chance a proposed new Labour head will come out on an anti-immigration platform? I highly, highly doubt it. Labour is dead until it figures that out.
Even though I like Corbyn and don't think labour has many better options,this is 100% true.
ExtremePopcorn
Member
If he is a man of principles then why was his attempt to keep Britain in the EU so halfhearted?
If he would prefer the UK out of the EU like some people suspect, and would explain his lack of enthusiasm for campaigning to stay in, why did he not just come out and say it?
Leadership is tough, leading a country is possible the hardest job you can do. It involves making difficult choices and doing things you might not think are right or particularly like doing.
If Corbyn can't even bring himself to do a media event because Cameron called him names, how are people meant to trust him to run a nuclear power?
TomWaitsForNoMan
Banned
Do you think their fears about immigration are justified? If so, what is your evidence that immigration is the cause of all their ills? If not, do you think we should indulge those sentiments even though they're baseless? And what would you suggest be done instead?
EDIT: I'm not asking this to be a dick, but because I hear a lot of people saying "voters are anti-immigration" etc, but with no followup about what that actually means or what is to be done about it. Does it mean invest massively into deprived areas so immigration is no longer a scapegoat? Does it mean try and convince voters that immigration is not the root problem? Does it mean go along with xenophobia to try and win popularity? No-one seems to have specifics. Meanwhile the last couple of decades of racist dogwhistling from both Labour and the Tories have brought us to this point, a Labour leader who actively nixed plans to use immigration as a scapegoat is being knifed by his own party, I as a minority am confronted by growing racist abuse, and all anyone wants to talk about are the "very serious concerns" about immigration
It doesn't need to be an 'anti-immigration' platform, but they need to realise that this is a big issue for a lot of voters, and they need to address it.
Back in '97 Labour were considered weak on crime, the economy etc.
- they signed up to the existing Conservative budgets, and then promptly gave the BoE independence (kindof).
- they very much focused on the idea of 'tough on the causes of crime' rather than continuing the Tory strategy of ever increasing punishments.
Basically a labour leader needs to "be tough on the negative of effects of immigration". (labour are generally pro-immigration, which has blinded them to what a lot of voters think)
TomWaitsForNoMan
Banned
Except they didn't do that, the prison population went up under Labour, they created new offences, walked back on softening their drugs policy, and created things like ASBOs and Imprisonment For Public Protection which allows prisoners to be detained pretty much forever.
And what, specifically, are the negative effects of immigration and what should (toughly, always toughly) be done about them?
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/747075079977246720
More Shadow Cabinet resignations coming after 4pm.
More Shadow Cabinet resignations coming after 4pm.
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