Support NeoGAF

[Moosichu]

Are you aware of the history of actual fascism when you accuse Trump of such? I'm not defending him. He's small-minded, narcissistic, overconfident, and woefully uninformed. However, he's not actually a fascist. He's a walking nightmare, but not of that kind, and when you use that term indiscriminately, you dilute the term and make it easier for actual fascists to rise to power. It's irresponsible.

Surely a refusal to call out a fascist for what they are makes it easier for them to rise to power?

 

[disastermouse]

This is just comically wrong.

As for the "broader working class", even before Sanders managed to wrest the Dem platform further left, Clinton's policies could be characterized as "pretty much the same as Sanders, only less extreme". To call her evil or dangerous is just plain false. It is ascribing to Clinton an attitude that she does not have.

Really? Sanders has a worldwide 'charity' that he uses for political power and financial favors? Sanders supported TPP? How many rape victims did he personally destroy 'because it was his job'? How many wars is he likely to push for or start? How many Walmart boards has he been on? How many paid speeches to Wall Street did he give? How many donations from the private prison industry has he received? Where was he on the Iraq war? NAFTA? (If you don't care about NAFTA, that's just class privilege right there).

There are differences, it's just shit you don't care about. But don't tell me I'm silly because I care about it.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

If you support the TPP you're evil plain and simple. Kaine supports it and unless Hillary in her speech disavows and pledges to not sign and support the TPP under her administration then you can bet your last dollar that she'll support it as well.

So basically we'll wait and see what happens at the convention.

I don't believe Obama is evil.

 

[Kyzer]

Fuck. I remember I thought Trump winning the Primary was a joke. Then he did it. I'm scared Hillary won't mobilize voters and we will be stuck with Trump

If you support the TPP you're evil plain and simple.

Politics must be so simple in your house

 

[disastermouse]

Surely a refusal to call out a fascist for what they are makes it easier for them to rise to power?

Not if you're labeling someone a fascist and they aren't a fascist. It makes it so that people think fascism means what you've now weakened it to mean, which makes it so that you can't level the accusation as effectively when it actually fits.

 

[disastermouse]

Fuck. I remember I thought Trump winning the Primary was a joke. Then he did it. I'm scared Hillary won't mobilize voters and we will be stuck with Trump




Politics must be so simple in your house

Less tribal than 'support the Democrat no matter what'. That sounds simpler.

 

[disastermouse]

I don't believe Obama is evil.

Drone bombing civilians in countries full of brown people doesn't strike you as even a *smidge* evil? Flirting with evil? Fingerbanging evil?

 

[Kyzer]

Less tribal than 'support the Democrat no matter what'. That sounds simpler.

Idk Id say "If you have this certain belief you are automatically wrong and also evil, it's that simple" is at least equally as tribal lol

 

[Black Republican]

whether your a bernie or clinton supporter i think most agree shes been terrible at her job.


God knows why Obama kept her as DNC chair

 

[disastermouse]

What a factual solid statement and proof that trump isn't pushing fascism into US politics. I mean, your article posits there isnt much evidence to suggest that trump is racist, any OT poster on NeoGAF is more informed than that writer. Most of that is circumstantial stuff, and the part about trump not doing it all his life is irrelevant, when the entire point is he is hijacking the already built apparatus/tea party and their rhetoric to go full in. Do you not remember them beating people up at the sign of trouble(melanin) at early Trump rallies?

And it's even in your article:
If you don't think an unfettered republican congress with a white nationalist run presidency isn't pushing towards this definition of fascism then what is?
Here, first search result in google:


And I like how this all started because you couldn't even say you ever cared about the issues, but had to bring up some semantical point about the actual definition of fascism.

Words mean things. You're throwing around labels you don't grasp because you don't like that bad, bad man and so you go to the ideology of the most evil person of recent memory. The entire center left is guilty of violating Godwin's law.

 

[Suikoguy]

Not if you're labeling someone a fascist and they aren't a fascist. It makes it so that people think fascism means what you've now weakened it to mean, which makes it so that you can't level the accusation as effectively when it actually fits.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[7] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[7] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[8][9][10][11] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12]

Sounds a lot like Trump.

He wants his first action to be a law passed so he can replace people that do not agree with him in government. He literally said he will change everything himself. He wants to get rid of all trade deals.

You irrational hate of Hillary has deluded your thought processes to the point where you can't even call a spade a spade.

There may be a better description than Fascist, but it fits well enough to call him that.

 

[disastermouse]

Idk Id say "If you have this certain belief you are automatically wrong and also evil, it's that simple" is at least equally as tribal lol

It's not about the belief, it's about the policy. The policy is unbelievably threatening to our democracy and vastly disadvantageous to anyone who works for a wage instead of making money from investing.

TPP is more dangerous than Trump. By vast magnitudes. Take JUST global warming. Trump could damage it for the term he has in office, but TPP could damage it permanently by circumventing the sovereignty of nation states themselves, permanently disarming the levers and gears in place to make it, however bone crushingly difficult, at least possible to implement climate policy that values the continuation of the species over the demands of capital.

 

[Officerrob]

Take it from people who have been there before, you are wasting your time with disastermouse

 

[disastermouse]

Sounds a lot like Trump.

He wants his first action to be a law passed so he can replace people that do not agree with him in government. He literally said he will change everything himself. He wants to get rid of all trade deals.

You irrational hate of Hillary has deluded your thought processes to the point where you can't even call a spade a spade.

There may be a better description than Fascist, but it fits well enough to call him that.

No, it doesn't fit. He is not making a claim to dictatorial power, and even if he was, merely doing that =/= fascism, as many nominally Communist dictators did exactly the same thing. Their dictatorships were ideologically different however, and Trumps grab for power is not primarily fascist.

'Fascist' encompasses more than 'demagogue'.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Words mean things. You're throwing around labels you don't grasp because you don't like that bad, bad man and so you go to the ideology of the most evil person of recent memory. The entire center left is guilty of violating Godwin's law.

Perhaps it's because he proposed that all Muslims wear badges identifying them as Muslims

I swear, we could have Muslim concentration camps and it would be "but Godwin's law!"

And then we hear him announcing that he is the only person who can fix America

 

[disastermouse]

Perhaps it's because he proposed that all Muslims wear badges identifying them as Muslims

I swear, we could have Muslim concentration camps and it would be "but Godwin's law!"

FDR put the Japanese in internment camps. Was he a fascist? (No, he was not.)

Stalin put people in camps and made them wear uniforms too. Still wasn't a fascist.

 

[A Link to the Past]

FDR put the Japanese in internment camps. Was he a fascist? (No, he was not.)

Did FDR go on a grand speech about how he was the voice of the people and that he was the only one who could fix America?

 

[Aaronology]

Harm this country more? Yes, I believe Hillary is more dangerous. She's not fucking around - she'll be more effectively evil. For minorities in particular? Trump appears more blatantly bad for Muslims and Latinos. About the same for AAs, insignificant for the rest. HRC is more dangerous for the broader working class, though, which is more prominently composed of minorities.

Trump would have control of all branches of government. No restraints. No filters. No counterbalance. How, exactly, would Clinton be "more effectively evil" with democrats only in control of the WhiteHouse? What is even this "evil" you're referring to? Why do you imply Trump isn't actually bad for minorities but only "appears" to be? And please, detail how Trump is less of a threat to working class Americans than the Democratic ticket because I legitimately don't see how this is the case.

Are you black, Muslim or latino? You've said "Racism is not at the core of our problems" and you have a mistaken idea that black people have the lowest turnouts in America (when, in fact, we've had the highest in the last two elections). Is it safe to assume you are not a member of the groups you are seemingly hand-waving away Trump's threat towards? I hate to play that card but I would like some insight here.

 

[You Know Nothing]

Trump is a fascist piece of shit. Let's not pretend otherwise.

It's not a wasted vote. You're exercising your democratic right. By the same logic it's a wasted vote if your chosen candidate loses by more than a single vote.

Our entire political system is based on two parties.

Voting for a third party is not even a factor in the grand scheme of things. It is a fart in the wind and nothing more. Of course people are free to vote for whoever they please. But their vote for a third party is completely wasted by the very constraints of our democracy. Two parties always come to prominence with an FPTP system. That cannot be prevented. Coalitions form as a result of an FPTP system and you're forced to choose between one or the other. It's a shitty system but that's the way it is. There is no way to break or change the system without fundamentally altering it.

 

[Suikoguy]

No, it doesn't fit. He is not making a claim to dictatorial power, and even if he was, merely doing that =/= fascism, as many nominally Communist dictators did exactly the same thing. Their dictatorships were ideologically different however, and Trumps grab for power is not primarily fascist.

'Fascist' encompasses more than 'demagogue'.

From his speech:

"When I take the oath of office next year, I will restore law and order to our country. Believe me, believe me."
and
"Nobody knows the system better than me, which is why I alone can fix it."

Are you trying to take after Meta with gymnastics level Semantics?

 

[disastermouse]

Did FDR go on a grand speech about how he was the voice of the people and that he was the only one who could fix America?

Several, although much more skillfully than Trump and with far more support. He packed courts, interfered with union negotiations, expanded the power of the presidency far beyond where it started, and got a hitherto isolationist United States into a world war.

 

[TheSeks]

Why does everyone assume I'm voting for Trump? We have other candidates outside the two party system and I didnt explicitly rule anyone out.

Essentially, America IS a two-party system even if the "b-b-but third parties!" want to try to join. Your thoughts are right, both parties are bad. But there is no way a third party is going to win. Just look at GAF, they're hand-waving away a lot of Hillary's bad sides (and the Democrats dirty dealings to make sure Clinton was the nominee from the get-go) because "at least she isn't Trump!"

If GAF and other places/everyone was ENTIRELY sick of the Democrats AND Republicans, we'd at least get a third party to have an honest chance of winning. But that isn't going to happen because of the above mind-view of "lol it's a wasted vote, so why should I do it when I need to prevent Trump from winning!?"

 

[Aaronology]

Drone bombing civilians in countries full of brown people doesn't strike you as even a *smidge* evil? Flirting with evil? Fingerbanging evil?

And Trump has advocated the torture and murder of innocent people merely for being related to terrorists. You do not get to act like you care about the "evils" of the world when you admit you are willing to let someone who openly champions the worst of them into power. You don't get to use drone bombing victims like a "gotcha" card. It's utterly insincere.

 

[Freshmaker]

I won't miss her, but I doubt the next DNC head will be much different. The job requires a yes-(wo)man.

Someone who actually has spine enough to not stump for the payday loan industry would be nice tho.

 

[disastermouse]

Trump would have control of all branches of government. No restraints. No filters. No counterbalance. How, exactly, would Clinton be "more effectively evil" with democrats only in control of the WhiteHouse? What is even this "evil" you're referring to? Why do you imply Trump isn't actually bad for minorities but only "appears" to be? And please, detail how Trump is less of a threat to working class Americans than the Democratic ticket because I legitimately don't see how this is the case.

Are you black, Muslim or latino? You've said "Racism is not at the core of our problems" and you have a mistaken idea that black people have the lowest turnouts in America (when, in fact, we've had the highest in the last two elections). Is it safe to assume you are not a member of the groups you are seemingly hand-waving away Trump's threat towards? I hate to play that card but I would like some insight here.

The Republicans , many of whom actively oppose Trump,would have control of all branches of government, not Trump himself.

I'm not a member of any of those groups, but I am a member of more than one group routinely rounded up and killed by traditionally fascist rulers.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Why does the far left have this strangely perverse admiration of the far right? It's almost like they respect their unabashed adherence to their principles as a positive compared to people in the middle who are the worst kind of devil. It's some deep psychology.

 

[disastermouse]

And Trump has advocated the torture and murder of innocent people merely for being related to terrorists. You do not get to act like you care about the "evils" of the world when you admit you are willing to let someone who openly champions the worst of them into power. You don't get to use drone bombing victims like a "gotcha" card. It's utterly insincere.

And Obama has drone bombed civilians merely for being geographically located near where terrorists might be, and he's done it in the interests of imperial power ruled by capital - which is a primary feature of fascists rulers (although Obama is not a fascist, obviously).

 

[Galactic Barret]

I said it a while ago, this whole thing was rigged against Bernie, but that doesn't matter now. Hillary supporters have been calling for unity, for Bernie to demur and make sure his voters turned out for Her but that is over now. This just seems to validate everything that has been uttered by the Bernie camp and his supporters from the beginning.

I'm frankly dumbfounded; where does Hillary go from here? People didn't trust, didn't like her before. Trump is going to milk this, Hillary has no real comeback because Trump supporters want to see the world burn. Meanwhile, the candidate the people trust and believe in got Caeser'd. How in the hell can there be unity now?

What a clusterfuck. I sincerely hope Clinton wins, because Trump CANNOT become POTUS for my and my children's sake.

Whoever is running this show from the sidelines for the Trump squad is a G. No indictment for Hillary was the best thing that they could hope for, cause Sanders would have irrevocably wrecked Trump's shit.

In 10 years' time, there's going to be a Michael Moore documentary on this.

 

[Averon]

Why does the far left have this strangely perverse admiration of the far right? It's almost like they respect their unabashed adherence to their principles as a positive compared to people in the middle who are the worst kind of devil. It's some deep psychology.

Decades of seeing the far right's tactics being rewarded by the electorate. Hell, I'm guilty of having a sliver of admiration for the Tea Party for how they forced their way into the GOP and mostly got their way even if it will end in disaster.

 

[Phantast2k]

Why does the far left have this strangely perverse admiration of the far right? It's almost like they respect their unabashed adherence to their principles as a positive compared to people in the middle who are the worst kind of devil. It's some deep psychology.

Horseshoe theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though I feel it's more of a circle when considering the similarities between Nazism & War Communism.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I said it a while ago, this whole thing was rigged against Bernie, but that doesn't matter now. Hillary supporters have been calling for unity, for Bernie to demur and make sure his voters turned out for Her but that is over now. This just seems to validate everything that has been uttered by the Bernie camp and his supporters from the beginning.

I'm frankly dumbfounded; where does Hillary go from here? People didn't trust, didn't like her before. Trump is going to milk this, Hillary has no real comeback because Trump supporters want to see the world burn. Meanwhile, the candidate the people trust and believe in got Caeser'd. How in the hell can there be unity now?

What a clusterfuck. I sincerely hope Clinton wins, because Trump CANNOT become POTUS for my and my children's sake.

Whoever is running this show from the sidelines for the Trump squad is a G. No indictment for Hillary was the best thing that they could hope for, cause Sanders would have irrevocably wrecked Trump's shit.

Hopefully it starts with speeches by Sanders and Warren tomorrow. At the end of the day, if Sanders gets what he wants in the platform he will not want Trump to ruin that.

 

[Velcro Fly]

This is a whole lot of fucking nothing unless you already didn't like Hillary Clinton.

Then it is pretty much the validation of every bullshit excuse and conspiracy theory that has ever been uttered throughout this campaign.

It's okay guys I'm sure when president Trump and the Russian intelligence apparatus win this election there will be a special place in the administration for the #NeverHillary people that stood strong throughout all of this

 

[Meguro]

I truly do wonder if the doom and gloom over Party unity people have actually bothered to read said leaked emails.
There's not really the discriminating evidence you think there to be.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

This is a whole lot of fucking nothing unless you already didn't like Hillary Clinton.

Then it is pretty much the validation of every bullshit excuse and conspiracy theory that has ever been uttered throughout this campaign.

It's okay guys I'm sure when president Trump and the Russian intelligence apparatus win this election there will be a special place in the administration for the #NeverHillary people that stood strong throughout all of this

It's not nothing but it's not some major revelation either. It's basically shitty ideas being bounced around by political insiders who more often than not think these kinds of thoughts. Hopefully they get disciplined for it but there's nothing here yet of systemic collusion or rigged processes.

 

[Alrus]

Essentially, America IS a two-party system even if the "b-b-but third parties!" want to try to join. Your thoughts are right, both parties are bad. But there is no way a third party is going to win. Just look at GAF, they're hand-waving away a lot of Hillary's bad sides (and the Democrats dirty dealings to make sure Clinton was the nominee from the get-go) because "at least she isn't Trump!"

If GAF and other places/everyone was ENTIRELY sick of the Democrats AND Republicans, we'd at least get a third party to have an honest chance of winning. But that isn't going to happen because of the above mind-view of "lol it's a wasted vote, so why should I do it when I need to prevent Trump from winning!?"

What "dirty dealings" exactly? As in things that actually happened.

Third parties would get more respect if they didn't have batshit crazy platforms and fielded competent people. They have neither. A libertarian or green presidency would be a complete disaster.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

I love the idea that the DNC has such tremendous power and under-the-table influence that it could effectively rig the nomination.

If that were true, Clinton would've been the nominee in 2008.

She was not.

Do the math.

 

[BokehKing]

Not if you're labeling someone a fascist and they aren't a fascist. It makes it so that people think fascism means what you've now weakened it to mean, which makes it so that you can't level the accusation as effectively when it actually fits.

There you go, seems to be a trend. Fear monger a word enough until it loses its meaning.


As far as DWS, people knew she was no good but had to tow the line for Hillary to get her where she is today, this should come as a relief to them.

 

[Aaronology]

The Republicans , many of whom actively oppose Trump,would have control of all branches of government, not Trump himself.

Did you not watch the GOP convention? There were no Republicans of power who opposed Trump besides Cruz. Are you denying the GOP has not fallen in line behind their candidate? Are you claiming Trump and a GOP Congress would be at odds? That he would veto their bills and that they would antagonize his Presidency at the cost of their own seats? Are you claiming a Trump/Pence ticket would not decimate Progressivism in the United States for literal generations due to the USSC tilting?

I think you attempt to overstate the rift between Trump and the GOP to justify your lack of opposition to him. "It won't be bad, the GOP will buffer us from his Presidency." Is that it?

I'm not a member of any of those groups...

But you believe you're in a suitable position to evaluate and subsequently dismiss the danger the GOP ticket poses to those who are. Have you considered your ability to advocate so loudly against backing the DNC stems from you being shielded from the results of their loss?

 

[hidys]

If you support the TPP you're evil plain and simple. Kaine supports it and unless Hillary in her speech disavows and pledges to not sign and support the TPP under her administration then you can bet your last dollar that she'll support it as well.

So basically we'll wait and see what happens at the convention.

Spoken like someone with a very limited understanding of the TPP or trade policy more generally.

I say that as someone who does not support the TPP.

 

[Aaronology]

And Obama has drone bombed civilians merely for being geographically located near where terrorists might be, and he's done it in the interests of imperial power ruled by capital - which is a primary feature of fascists rulers (although Obama is not a fascist, obviously).

I am not sure why you quote Obama's failures back to me. You are the one grandstanding and self righteously preaching about "evil" while passively supporting a man who would do far worse than the collateral damage America is already deeply guilty of. I wasn't trying to play tit for tat there; I was pointing out your hypocrisy.

 

[BokehKing]

I love the idea that the DNC has such tremendous power and under-the-table influence that it could effectively rig the nomination.

If that were true, Clinton would've been the nominee in 2008.

She was not.

Do the math.

People wanted to see the first black president, that amount of positive change was always going to over power Hillary and her "I'm going to stay in until whenever, we all remember bobby Kennedy assassination" and other tone deaf remarks. The DNC had no power to stop Obama because that dude was bringing over independents and Republicans sick of the last 8 years if Bush.

Now Bernie, Bernie is pretty much a socialist and an outsider, he would not be a third term of Obama, they couldn't have that.

 

[teruterubozu]

If you support the TPP you're evil plain and simple.

I agree. A Trump Pence Presidency is unacceptable.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't even understand this TPP argument. Neither major ticket is free of the TPP taint except that I guess we have to believe Trump is so stubborn and strong that Pence supporting it doesn't matter. Never mind that not one person in his party has come around on the idea, even Pence is being coy about it.

 

[Galactic Barret]

I love the idea that the DNC has such tremendous power and under-the-table influence that it could effectively rig the nomination.

If that were true, Clinton would've been the nominee in 2008.

She was not.

Do the math.

Its either you believe the leaks, or you don't.

Hopefully it starts with speeches by Sanders and Warren tomorrow. At the end of the day, if Sanders gets what he wants in the platform he will not want Trump to ruin that.

That is the problem, in my mind at least.

I think this has gotten past being about Bernie himself winning, and more about not sticking to the establishment principles that "true liberals" 'think' they are ready to live without. These leaks confirm the corruption in politics that has been a sticking point, particularly in the Bernie camp, and to vote for Hillary would be a vote for those principles, even if it ruins us in the long term by screwing up our SCOTUS selections.

Thats not to say most will up and vote for Trump, that is fucking insane, in my opinion. However, my biggest fear is that this could, and will, scatter the votes out to candidates that have no chance, like Jill Stein or others, instead of solidifying on Clinton. I believe that movement is bigger than just Bernie Sanders, he was just the most viable candidate yet to run with it on his back.

I definitely do not agree with going that route, but I can put myself in others' shoe.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

People wanted to see the first black president, that amount of positive change was always going to over power Hillary and her "I'm going to stay in until whenever, we all remember bobby Kennedy assassination" and other tone deaf remarks. The DNC had no power to stop Obama because that dude was bringing over independents and Republicans sick of the last 8 years if Bush.

Now Bernie, Bernie is pretty much a socialist and an outsider, he would not be a third term of Obama, they couldn't have that.

But if they have such huge power to influence the primaries, then him "bringing over independents and Republicans" etc. shouldn't matter.

Besides, didn't people say Sanders was ALSO bringing in independents?

I mean, this whole thing is basically a non-story. The DNC preferred Clinton. Well, no shit. You mean they prefer the person who's been an established, central member of their party for decades over the guy who wasn't even a member of the party until recently (and who still badmouths them at every opportunity)? Shocking.

They tried to manipulate the media? Well, yeah - that's what political parties do. That's one of their JOBS. It's the job of the media to, y'know, not fall for it.

One guy made a deeply stupid remark about a religion-based strategy that they never actually used? Looks kinda bad for that guy, but not much else.

I have yet to see much solid evidence of what the DNC actually DID, concretely, to supposedly rig these primaries in favor of Clinton.

Its either you believe the leaks, or you don't.

No? It's entirely possible to believe the leaks are accurate and still think the idea that the DNC somehow "rigged" the primaries and caused Bernie to lose is laughable.

 

[Aaronology]

People wanted to see the first black president, that amount of positive change was always going to over power Hillary and her "I'm going to stay in until whenever, we all remember bobby Kennedy assassination" and other tone deaf remarks. The DNC had no power to stop Obama because that dude was bringing over independents and Republicans sick of the last 8 years if Bush.

Now Bernie, Bernie is pretty much a socialist and an outsider, he would not be a third term of Obama, they couldn't have that.

3 million more people wanted Hillary Clinton than Bernie Sanders.

Sorry.

 

[kirblar]

I don't even understand this TPP argument. Neither major ticket is free of the TPP taint except that I guess we have to believe Trump is so stubborn and strong that Pence supporting it doesn't matter. Never mind that not one person in his party has come around on the idea, even Pence is being coy about it.

Remember what kicked off episode 1?

Trade talks.

 

[BokehKing]

3 million more people wanted Hillary Clinton than Bernie Sanders.

Sorry.

Bernie also refused to attack clinton on emails and Benghazi
But hey, be a gentleman and get trounced, he should have known better, showing respect to someone that saw you and your followers as nothing more than a nuisance? Dude was too nice

 

[Alrus]

Bernie also refused to attack clinton on emails and Benghazi
But hey, be a gentleman and get trounced, he should have known better, showing respect to someone that saw you and your followers as nothing more than a nuisance? Dude was too nice

Yes let's act like Hillary didn't threat him with respect either. Poor persecuted Bernie and Bernie supporters.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Bernie also refused to attack clinton on emails and Benghazi
But hey, be a gentleman and get trounced, he should have known better, showing respect to someone that saw you and your followers as nothing more than a nuisance? Dude was too nice

Uhh, they've been accommodating the hell out of his demands since he lost.

I don't understand what the hell is going on this world. Everyone just wants to create their own reality and they go to whatever news source affirms that reality.