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[OldMan]

Carson and now this woman. ☑️☑️

 

[aeolist]

Sending your child to a different school is still for the greater good because that child will get an education, more often, a better one.

and in the process of doing so you hurt the public school system by removing funding and ensuring that the people who can't afford to leave it get less for their tax dollars

 

[NihonTiger90]

Her brother is Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater, a notorious mercenary company. Her father-in-law, Richard DeVos, co-founded Amway ‒ a multi-level marketing company that mainly sells health, beauty and home care products ‒ and also owns the Orlando Magic basketball team in Florida.

Her husband also ran for governor of Michigan in 2006 and got beat soundly by Granholm. He's also a huge backer of right-to-work laws and dumped a ton of money into the campaign that got it passed in Michigan.

 

[pompidu]

Sending your child to a different school is still for the greater good because that child will get an education, more often, a better one.

And good on you for voting yest to maintain/increase the school budgets. I also do the same/did the same when I was unmarried without children.

You assume the will get a better one. Did ITT tech and these private colleges teach us nothing?

 

[ATF487]

Is 'the swamp' actually public services and institutions?

 

[RepairmanJack]

Sending your child to a different school is still for the greater good because that child will get an education, more often, a better one.

And good on you for voting yest to maintain/increase the school budgets. I also do the same/did the same when I was unmarried without children.

You ignored my post about funding.

Also just going to a better school already happens with people that are more well off. They don't like the school district they move to a better school district. This doesn't change anything other than taking funding from already underfunded schools. The money could be used to make more public schools and better fund the already existing schools. The only difference is the money goes to corporations instead of the public as a whole in the form of better schools.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

I always thought US looked down on UK's class system. Didn't realize it was actually jealous and wanted one of its own.

Every time an American tells me that unlike us, they don't have a class system, my eyes roll back so hard that I damn near knock myself out. It's just as entrenched as ours.

Spoiler

I say every time, it's happened exactly twice. Most of you guys know what's up.

 

[Cagey]

But they are more profitable. Which is the point it seems.

Charter schools in most states are, by law, not-for-profit.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Charter schools in most states are, by law, not-for-profit.

Either are charities or sports teams...

 

[Cagey]

Though anecdotal - I currently work at one of the top public school districts in my state. We constantly get students coming in from charter schools throughout the area. A lot of them are then referred for special education services because they simply were not taught the appropriate curriculum at their charter school and they are so far behind grade level.

Charter schools aren't the answer.

charter schools also greatly underserve special needs students, which adds to the problem. they only have to take care of the least expensive sections of the student population, which leaves the costliest kids in underfunded public systems.

100% true. It's a major problem and it's one based on loophole: if a charter doesn't provide the services needed for the student with disabilities, by law, they can't attend the school lest there's violations occurring.

You're missing the point. The district my wife teaches in right now is over 2000 kids over capacity. The schools districts gets a set amount of money regardless of being over capacity but if 500 of that 2000 suddenly go to a charter school the district loses 500 kids worth of funding meanwhile they still have 1500 more kids than they were originally funded for anyways.

Also the charter schools can freely select who they admit and don't admit and can also freely let kids go. 9/10 they come back to public schools underperforming and it then reflects poorly on the public schools who then get less funding due to test scores.

This is literally a whole web of issues it's not just good schools/bad schools more kids/less kids.

In places where charter applications are greater than seats available, by law, they're required to have lotteries for the seats.

Either are charities or sports teams...

Yes, individual employees earn salaries and thus profit. The entities themselves are non-profit. There's no shareholders, no dividends, no profits divvied up among investors or stakeholders beyond salaries.

 

[aeolist]

Charter schools in most states are, by law, not-for-profit.

except they can be run by for-profit management companies and employ tons of for-profit contractors for all different roles, none of which is publicly accountable

 

[Absinthe]

and in the process of doing so you hurt the public school system by removing funding and ensuring that the people who can't afford to leave it get less for their tax dollars

You ignored my post about funding.

Also just going to a better school already happens with people that are more well off. They don't like the school district they move to a better school district. This doesn't change anything other than taking funding from already underfunded schools. The money could be used to make more public schools and better fund the already existing schools. The only difference is the money goes to corporations instead of the public as a whole in the form of better schools.

TBH the total taxes I pay for schools is pretty low and I do believe if you remove students from a school that school needs less funding, just like if you add children they need more funding.

If they're underfunded then the government needs to step in and add that funding from the budget which I think could be done if they pull a little from Military spending.

You assume the will get a better one. Did ITT tech and these private colleges teach us nothing?

I'm talking about general education not some sleazy wannabe college.

Either are charities or sports teams...

The fact that the NFL is still a non profit baffles me and points to some massive flaws of our system.

except they can be run by for-profit management companies and employ tons of for-profit contractors for all different roles, none of which is publicly accountable

Then we pass a lay that requires accountability for private schools, which is way overdue.

 

[aeolist]

Yes, individual employees earn salaries and thus profit. The entities themselves are non-profit. There's no shareholders, no dividends, no profits divvied up among investors or stakeholders beyond salaries.

there are cases of the same people serving on the boards of the not-for-profit school and its for-profit management company simultaneously

 

[Foffy]

it's almost like unrestrained capitalism naturally funnels money from the general populace as they're driven ever deeper into poverty and into the hands of a select few.

How dare you say that.

The market, being a deity, acts in the interest of all.

Human collusion and greed are only ever the results of evil gubments and regulations.

People will have Prosperity™ when we deregulate everything, privatize everything, and get rid of all social safety nets.

 

[aeolist]

Then we pass a lay that requires accountability for private schools, which is way overdue.

if you think anyone pushing for charter systems is at all concerned with public accountability then i have a bridge to sell you.

public oversight would entirely defeat the purpose, which is to cut corners that public schools cannot in order to save money.

 

[Cagey]

there are cases of the same people serving on the boards of the not-for-profit school and its for-profit management company simultaneously

Sure. I've seen this firsthand myself in a prior career stop. And it's bad that this happens.You won't find me opposed to increased oversight and increased funding for state entities currently responsible for oversight of the charter sector. Much of the needed oversight now is simply lack of enforcement of current regs due to the underfunded nature of charter authorizers.

SUNY oversees New York State. Their office for charter oversight is minuscule.

 

[siddx]

Charter schools in most states are, by law, not-for-profit.

Doesn't matter, founders can give themselves a nice salary and benefits and do fuck all as far as actually investing in the school.

Charter schools are a great idea on paper that usually don't work out because they attract predatory types who smell an easy buck.
But the idea is nice of having a place where people can try to break this absurd stagnant cycle of education that's focused on outdated ideas and methods that haven't been relative since we stopped letting children work in factories. Being able to try something significantly different that would never fly in a public school system is entirely worth it. It just needs to be in the right hands.

 

[aeolist]

Much of the needed oversight now is simply lack of enforcement of current regs due to the underfunded nature of charter authorizers.

no, it's due to the people who campaign for and implement charter systems being entirely against oversight and regulation because it adds cost and decreases profit margins. it's not some awful coincidence that few regulations exist and that when they do enforcement is underfunded, this is how they want it to work.

you're a fool if you think the people at the top of this really want to make the school system more efficient and effective, they're just out to line their own pockets.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I think this charter school video is a must watch
https://youtu.be/l_htSPGAY7I

 

[ecnal]

There's massive evidence based studies on how it makes public schools underperform because they only have to worry about minimum standards

there's also evidence that suggests it works.
a study on sweden's school voucher system:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272704000404

no one here on gaf is going to be able to determine whether or not school vouchers are actually positive or negative. point being, there is ample evidence on both sides. to get riled up in hyperbole about how the american education system is now going to be in shambles due to school vouchers isn't just a stretch of the imagination -- it's nonsensical and illogical.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Some charters are good.

Some are bad.

Really "vouchers" though is mostly an excuse for richer folks to get their tax dollars back to pay for private school and/or Christian school.

It fucks the budgets of public schools though.

I'm beginning to hope that low income Republicans figure out things when they lose their Medicaid, their schools get worse, and we end up with a massive defecit from massive tax cuts / tariff wars / infrastructure spending.

I'm sure they'll find a way to blame Democrats or Obama somehow though.

 

[digdug2k]

Heh. One nice thing here is knowing that all those people who thought he was some how going to "shake things" up in Washington and end all government corruption must be realizing they're idiots at this point. Hopefully...? Nah, I'm just joking. That'll never happen.

 

[Absinthe]

How dare you say that.

The market, being a deity, acts in the interest of all.

Human collusion and greed are only ever the results of evil gubments and regulations.

People will have Prosperity™ when we deregulate everything, privatize everything, and get rid of all social safety nets.

Not calling you or anyone else out, but people will have prosperity when they quit blaming others for their problems and get their shit together. Prosperity is not some unattainable goal that you have to become rich. It's making smart choices with your life and preparing accordingly. Don't have kids before you can afford them, don't fuck without a condom just cause she "says she's on the pill", don't go into CC debt, don't buy a brand new car when you can barely afford your apartment, don't waste money on bullshit that doesn't matter until you have that money to waste.

Corporations are built on the pursuit of profit and that drive only increases when they become public. That market will never change.

 

[Onemic]

DRAINING THE SWAMP

 

[RepairmanJack]

TBH the total taxes I pay for schools is pretty low and I do believe if you remove students from a school that school needs less funding, just like if you add children they need more funding.

If they're underfunded then the government needs to step in and add that funding from the budget which I think could be done if they pull a little from Military spending.



I'm talking about general education not some sleazy wannabe college.



The fact that the NFL is still a non profit baffles me and points to some massive flaws of our system.



Then we pass a lay that requires accountability for private schools, which is way overdue.

Look, I get where you're coming from. Choice sounds great. The problem is that someone just got put in a position that is wholey on the business side of it. You're talking about regulations and funding with a political party that wants less government ran organizations and less regulations. The system has shown to be very exploitable and left areas in complete shambles(which this woman specifically has done:NYTimes)

The system the way it already is screws over underperforming and underfunded schools. All this will do is make that gap worse and worse.

 

[LProtag]

Just another day working in education and having people who have never worked in education appointed to make decisions on policies that affect my job.

Schools are essentially segregated again via de facto segregation, and the level of funding inequality is huge. School choice will likely contribute to white-flight and further inequality of funding for schools.

 

[burn this down]

Hahaha I'm going into education fucking end me holy shit

 

[aeolist]

there's also evidence that suggests it works.
a study on sweden's school voucher system:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272704000404

no one here on gaf is going to be able to determine whether or not school vouchers are actually positive or negative. point being, there is ample evidence on both sides. to get riled up in hyperbole about how the american education system is now going to be in shambles due to school vouchers isn't just a stretch of the imagination -- it's nonsensical and illogical.

that paper is from 2005

5 years later... http://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-schools-idUSL4N0JK32620131210

 

[GitarooMan]

Another extremist, divisive choice with a nice slice of pay for play on top. Ridiculous.

 

[AngmarsKing701]

So, increase the gap of the privileged and stay in control through power and education opportunities.

Yep - the GOP wants to keep the poor where they are: ignorant and blaming the Dems. This helps them do that.

 

[Absinthe]

Look, I get where you're coming from. Choice sounds great. The problem is that someone just got put in a position that is wholey on the business side of it. You're talking about regulations and funding with a political party that wants less government ran organizations and less regulations. The system has shown to be very exploitable and left areas in complete shambles(which this woman specifically has done:NYTimes)

The system the way it already is screws over underperforming and underfunded schools. All this will do is make that gap worse and worse.

True and this got a little OT. Since we can't rely on the schools to fully educate our children I guess it's on parents to pick up the slack and help their children because the system is broken.

 

[demon]

True and this got a little OT. Since we can't rely on the schools to fully educate our children I guess it's on parents to pick up the slack and help their children because the system is broken.

Simple enough when both parents are working 40-50 hours a week.

 

[Damerman]

Her younger brother started Blackwater USA and she is director of the Acton Institute. One of the main sponsors of the Institute are the Koch Brothers.


Fun times ahead.

Its over.... its fucking over.

 

[HeelPower]

But I thought Trump was this Robin Hood like outsider to the system! & that he would choose other Heroic Robin Hoods to save America!

 

[ClosingADoor]

Look at all these outsiders shaking up the establishment!

How many billionaires can you have in your government... what a disgrace.

 

[Absinthe]

Simple enough when both parents are working 40-50 hours a week.

I know this may sound reductive but that's not an excuse to neglect your child's education if public education is insufficient.

 

[Funky Papa]

Her younger brother started Blackwater USA and she is director of the Acton Institute. One of the main sponsors of the Institute are the Koch Brothers.


Fun times ahead.

She's also married to Amway's heir Dick DeVos and is super duper concerned about religious education and values.

 

[Slayven]

Trump has done everything he blamed Clinton of doing in just 2 weeks.

 

[aeolist]

I know this may sound reductive but that's not an excuse to neglect your child's education if public education is insufficient.

you're talking about personal responsibility in a discussion about systemic problems

it's like someone going into a thread about a national poverty study and saying "just work hard and get a good job if you don't want to be poor anymore"

 

[Damerman]

I mean, I would be okay with this if they just came out and said, "Fuck climate change, fuck education, and fuck equality. We're gonna be the last generation and we're gonna live it up while the whole thing burns around us."

I can get on board with that. I'm a terrible person and a shameless hedonist. I just can't abide the sort of monumental stupidity that insists there's any sort of future in this course.

This... so much this.

 

[JohnsonUT]

School vouchers is really the perfect Republican policy. Beat down the poor and the minorities, while robbing both the middle class and the treasury who have to now pay more for a school that may or may not be held accountable for anything.

 

[Slayven]

Didn't trump pledge to help the Heroin epidemic?

Education helps.....

 

[Foffy]

Not calling you or anyone else out, but people will have prosperity when they quit blaming others for their problems and get their shit together. Prosperity is not some unattainable goal that you have to become rich. It's making smart choices with your life and preparing accordingly. Don't have kids before you can afford them, don't fuck without a condom just cause she "says she's on the pill", don't go into CC debt, don't buy a brand new car when you can barely afford your apartment, don't waste money on bullshit that doesn't matter until you have that money to waste.

Corporations are built on the pursuit of profit and that drive only increases when they become public. That market will never change.

Ah, the simple answers. Always infallible.

Tell people to continue to make "smart choices" as those are pulled further and further away from them, leading to the opposite of prosperity: precarity. Pray tell, how does that work with education getting fucked hardcore with the potentiality of this candidate being in charge of Education? What smart choices can be made when it's in the hand of the same greedy fucks that have ruined things for the public for decades? Is your answer free will?

 

[Absinthe]

you're talking about personal responsibility in a discussion about systemic problems

it's like someone going into a thread about a national poverty study and saying "just work hard and get a good job if you don't want to be poor anymore"

His response was bullshit with "Simple enough when both parents are working 40-50 hours a week." so my response was just to that. Sure it's not easy to help your kids if you're overworked but that excuse is just a cop out that shirks the responsibility of being a parent.

Ah, the simple answers. Always infallible.

Tell people to continue to make "smart choices" as those are pulled further and further away from them, leading to the opposite of prosperity: precarity. Pray tell, how does that work with education getting fucked hardcore with the potentiality of this candidate being in charge of Education? What smart choices can be made when it's in the hand of the same greedy fucks that have ruined things for the public for decades? Is your answer free will?

My answer is that things are never going to be perfect. You have to deal with it and work within the system, even if it's fucked up.

I'm not trivializing our current crisis, but I'm also not going to use that as an excuse for being a screw up, or give up, or bitch and moan about how things aren't fair. When Donald Trump takes office and all this shit goes down it's going to suck, but we have to adapt and change things going forward and teach our children the same thing. You can always make smart choices regardless of your surroundings and the list I wrote still applies in this situation. It's amazing how many people ignore those simple answers and fuck their whole lives up because of it.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Privatize healthcare? You got it.
Privatize education? You got it.
Privatize everything? You got it.

But hey, at least he's honest about the privatization! Hillary would have emailed or Benghazi'd.

 

[Galactic Specter]

at least it's not Carson

He was too tired.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Someone who dislikes public schools will now run them. More public school funding cuts incoming so shitty charters schools that barely have to prove themselves can get more funding!

living in Ohio has shown me how shitty most charter schools and these voucher programs are and it is crazy how they get so much money and don't feel to need to prove results and clearly don't give a shit about the kids. Just businesses trying to get rich off kids and desperate parents.

Also they promote class segregation since all the rich kids leave public schools and poor kids see their education tank.

 

[platakul]

Privatize healthcare? You got it.
Privatize education? You got it.
Privatize everything? You got it.

But hey, at least he's honest about the privatization! Hillary would have emailed or Benghazi'd.

True the dems are awful on this too. Podesta is a TFA clown and they also support charters. Silver lining may be this gets SO bad that the DNC can reorganize around supporting teacher unions for once
But ah they have to actually support unions at all to begin with

 

[Foffy]

Also they promote class segregation since all the rich kids leave public schools and poor kids see their education tank.

And this only feeds alt-right thinking that minorities are innately inferior in regards to IQ.

The enemies of reason win all over.

 

[Furyous]

Vouchers have been a stunning success. Can't wait for them at the national level. Solves all of the problems.

Simple!

Yeah, I don't see how this could possibly backfire AT ALL. I say let the free markets regulate education because Obama had it all wrong in the first place... <---- Words of my conservative friends.

How much time does it take Trump supporters to realize they fucked over the next generation by supporting him? Is this the start or will Paul "privatize social security in the mid 2000's" Ryan push things over the edge with his inevitable big reveal?