Joust Williams
Member
OK...which methodology should I use to show that Wii games aren't as highly reviewed as PS2 games? I thought actually, you know, LOOKING AT THE REVIEWS would be a good place to start.
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EGM: Does the Nintendo Seal of Quality mean nothing?
- Thread starter QuickKick89
- Start date
Segata Sanshiro
Member
You've changed one of your operational definitions in your hypothesis. The original hypothesis was that the Wii library is of statistically significantly poorer quality than the PS2's. You've now defined "poorer quality" narrowly as "not as highly reviewed". We're going to have to start this whole thing over from scratch.
The key to finding the answer for the original hypothesis is that without a fairly large scale research project, you cannot find the answer, and even with one, you may not be able to control for the factors to provide a satisfactorally valid result. Your revised hypothesis is easier - you would have to control for the different review sources, changes in their reviewing staff in the last six years, and whether that had an effect on the data, among several other things, but in my head it seems a bit more feasible.
Opinions are really, really hard to back up statistically most of the time.
Opinions are really, really hard to back up statistically most of the time.
Joust Williams
Member
Segata said:
Um...that is pretty much a given. It would be the most widely agreed upon criterion. Yes, I could have a face to face interview with 1000 people about 200 games, but that's stupid. I don't need to do that to figure out that Wii's library is shit right now.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Even assuming that particular operational definition is adequate opens up a major can of worms, though. A certain amount of quality is objective, I think I can agree, but when dealing with art (as games are partially), tastes can vary wildly. My sister will take Hannah Montana any day of the week over Halo 3.Joust Williams said:
So if we want to use that operational definition, we have to ensure that the reviews we are using as our data are coming from a properly randomized sample from the population. Video game journos, I think you'd find, are not properly representative of the population on the whole, therefore GameRankings would not be an adequate source of meaningful data.
No, you're right, you don't, but it might be a good place to start if you want to figure out if the numbers genuinely back your opinion.
Pureauthor
Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
Joust Williams is an extreterrestial.
Joust Williams
Member
Segata said:
And a 4 year old would prefer Rugrats over Citizen Kane. I'm not getting into that 'target audience' thing.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Then you simply have to accept that you cannot use statistics to prove your opinion valid. Perhaps formal logic will help your argument where statistics have failed?Joust Williams said:
Joust Williams
Member
Why should they? I'm not going to give some shit game the same time as Bioshock because that other game is popular amongst a certain group of people.
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
sphinx said:
Agreed. But I'm not so sure at this point that something will change in the future. Iwata said that simply Third Parties were late to the party and that they made games fast and bad. He added that only now they're trying a different approach and that we'll see the results only in the middle of 2008 or later.
I guess that he's not wrong, but of course, I'm sure that AAA games will come overall from Nintendo & co. like Metroid Prime III or Twilight Princess, and that Third Parties will not do great stuff for the Wii. EWven after 50 millions Nintendo DS we haven't seen a PS2-comparable support until now.
But some encouraging results are coming recently: Zack and Wiki, the game from Vanillaware, Nights and No More Heroes. Some other games like Umbrella Chonicles and Soul Calibur Legends are something between good and decent.
What about Final Fantasy, we don't know anything. The Wii need a BIG Third Party game like RE4 has been on GC (not sales-wise, in quality) or like Rareware's games destroyed everything on the N64.
In effect, if you analyse the situation, the Wii has not Third Party support as it was with the SNES, quality-wise, not even closely. it is still a lot comparable to the N64 or GC (well, GC had more quality support in my opinion). But Wii is selling a lot more then GC and N64. Why ? The merit comes ALL from Nintendo itself, once again.
Pureauthor
Member
Joust Williams said:
That's your choice, and personally I agree with you on that, but the fact of the matter is that you can't prove your opinion correct - at the very least, not in the manner you've been going about it.
Looking at reviews is a completely fucking stupid way to try and prove Wii has the most crap on it, FFS!Joust Williams said:
All it does is say: hey, if I ask a load of people who think like me what their opinion of Wii's overall line-up is, they all agree it's shit. It does nothing to address the reality people have different tastes, which is precisely why Wii has a library many hardcore gamers deem as crap.
It really isn't complicated! :lol
Joust Williams
Member
Whatever, Wii's lineup is great, a 5 year old told me so. Must be
Segata Sanshiro
Member
And perhaps the other segment would say the same of you and your favorite games.Joust Williams said:
But anyway! I already spent enough time arguing against something I agree with for the sake of research methods. I'm not going to spend more time on it for the sake of philosophical debate!
Wii's library sucks rocks for at least another two months and maybe beyond, suckas!
Pureauthor
Member
Joust Williams said:
Good sir, have you no spine? You allow your opinions to be dictated by a five year old? Pish, I say!
Joust Williams
Member
That's how you have to approach anything Nintendo-related these days. Sales, sales, sales, the people who don't play games like it, yippee
have fun with that, I'm out, back to forums that talk about games instead
have fun with that, I'm out, back to forums that talk about games instead
Segata Sanshiro
Member
He's just being a suck because he's one of these people that can't admit he was wrong about something, even when it doesn't affect his overall point.Pureauthor said:
You know, if you had simply said "Oh, I see now. Okay, I was wrong about stats backing me, but I still think the Wii has a lousy lineup", you'd have gained some respect in my eyes, instead of losing some with an exit like this. Now, I know my respect and a buck twenty five gets you a cup of coffee, but I guess I hold myself to higher standards in a debate.Joust Williams said:
Pureauthor
Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
I know, and I'm teasing. Did my overly foppish manner of speaking not give it away?
By the invisible dragon in his garage, of course.
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
Joust Williams said:
Well, it's hard to say that you're wrong. Numbers are facts. And let me guess: these 7 games on Wii are almost all from Nintendo.
Joust Williams said:
Well, now don't say bullshits. Metroid Prime III is incredible. Paper Mario either. Super Mario Galaxy, Smash Bros. are amazing. Zack and Wiki, No More Heroes, King Story and Valillaware's game are in the A list. Even Umbrella Chonicles, Soul Calibur Legends and Nights are sure not crap. Wii Fit, Wii Music and all the non games are for non-gamers, sure, but they're not crap.
And there are also many others, like Fire Emblem, Endless Ocean, Mario Strikers, Samba de Amigo, the Golf game from Camelot, ....
Segata Sanshiro said:
Already done!
ziran said:
Yeah, but don't forget that the probability that reviewers are right is directly proportional to the number of reviews. It is easy to say that a reviewer is wrong. But it is a lot more difficult to say that 100 are all wrong.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Actually, if you read the last page, you'll see it's pretty easy to say he's wrong. At least as far as using that data to back him.Mithos Yggdrasill said:
Rancid Mildew
Banned
Joust Williams said:
Dammit. I was hoping your shenanigans last time got you out permanently. Oh well. Let's hope the coming meltdown is even worse.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
That's a dumb one too, for exactly the same reasons I went after Joust for. Don't make me get the GAF Validity in Statistics Society on your ass too.Jokeropia said:
GenericPseudonym
Banned
Jokeropia said:
To be honest two of those Wii games were Gamecube ports (RE4 and LoZ:TP).
360 had Call of Duty 2, Oblivion and GRAW. (Gears was released on the 360's 12th month, which is longer than Wii and PS3 have been out.) If you wanna note the GC ports (which at least have added functionality) you might also wanna note that the PS3's only 90+ game is a 360 port. (Oblivion.)GenericPseudonym said:
Guys I'm not trying to bash the wii
enjoy the your wiis. Thats what I did :\
or anything but Nintendo's target audience is little kids and old people(really old people). This target audience simply doesn't care about "good graphics" "good controls" or even a "cohesive story line" just dumb yourself down and
Segata Sanshiro
Member
In a thread of idiotic statements, this is Lord Emperor Duke Bishop Von Idiotic Statement the First, Esq., B.Sc., M.D., P.I.McLovin said:
Captain Glanton
Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
This is pseudo-logic. He is not actually arguing that the Wii is or is not the PS2; he's talking about whether they do or do not have similar characteristics. Similarly, he's not saying that the evidenc from numerical reviews is a perfect fit--no evidence gathered from outside a lab is, and no one thinks that it is.
You're making a strawman argument, [deliberately, I suspect] misrepresenting his claims and then tearing them down. It's high school-style debate.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Saying you have to dumb yourself down to enjoy the Wii indicates you have show some intelligence and sophistication to enjoy video games in the first place. In an industry where we have fans calling Xenosaga the best story written since the renaissance and people point to Saturday-morning-animu drama as high storytelling, I'd be very hesitant to say you have to dumb yourself down for any of these games, because enjoying things like story-telling in gaming requires a certain degree of dumbing oneself down to begin with.McLovin said:
No, his argument was that the Wii has poorer quality games than the PS2. He attempted to use data to statistically back his argument, and you really can't do that for reasons that I would think are painfully evident to anyone with half a brain. You have picked out one part of a long debate and said I was propping up a straw man, when I was simply addressing one of many back and forth points between us.
Playing fast and loose with statistics is misrepresentative at best, at worst it's deliberate lying. I agree with his opinion, not with his using Gamerankings as some objective barometer that proves it somehow.
McLovin said:
I'm tempted to say "Idiot ... nuf said," and leave it at that. What the hell are you trying to say? Does GTA take a lot of deep thought to play? What about something like DDR? So dumb.
Nintendo does care about good controls, good graphics, etc. It is stupid to say otherwise. The games with poor graphics and controls have been 3rd party rush jobs, not Nintendo games. I also really can't understand why it is so hard to grasp that you can expand your audience without leaving the old fans behind. You yourself gave a list of traditional franchises that have and are being released, they are just being joined by some new IPs aimed at a different audience.
The ultimate measure if a game should be on a system is if people buy it.
Sony's Product Evaluation Group is much less about quality and more about managing shelf space. While they do try to maximize quality within that shelf space, it's not the guiding principle, but perceived marketability and politics play huge parts as well.
A friend of mine in PEG says all sorts of ominous things like "we can't have a situation like Japan" and other things that really don't make sense to me - if a game doesn't sell because it's shitty, then there's a good chance that the publisher won't go out of their way to lose money on it again. Certain companies can push through failed games because of licenses or who that company is, so the PEG doesn't really have any formal power, either.
Also, Sony's own internal opinion on the PEG is mixed. Not only are they turning away royalties, both of their current systems desperately need more software. Disbanding PEG has come up several times in the past, and I believe is being considered again now.
Sony's Product Evaluation Group is much less about quality and more about managing shelf space. While they do try to maximize quality within that shelf space, it's not the guiding principle, but perceived marketability and politics play huge parts as well.
A friend of mine in PEG says all sorts of ominous things like "we can't have a situation like Japan" and other things that really don't make sense to me - if a game doesn't sell because it's shitty, then there's a good chance that the publisher won't go out of their way to lose money on it again. Certain companies can push through failed games because of licenses or who that company is, so the PEG doesn't really have any formal power, either.
Also, Sony's own internal opinion on the PEG is mixed. Not only are they turning away royalties, both of their current systems desperately need more software. Disbanding PEG has come up several times in the past, and I believe is being considered again now.
Tornado Condor
Member
itxaka said:this one?
l
what the fuck is that bear on the bottom doing to the pig?
they seem to be enjoying it
mepaco said:
You can't honestly tell me that you are fully satisfied with what nintendo has put out? Yes there are good games on the wii.. I own one I should know. But I'm talking about all the other garbage titles that are out. Once upon a time Nintendo wouldn't release some of these games.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Actually, as far as Nintendo's releases, I'm not really that pissed off. It's the overall Wii picture that I'm pissed off about. Nintendo's released what...McLovin said:
Wii Sports
Zelda
Excite Truck
Wii Play
Wario Ware
Mario Party 8
Big Brain Academy
Super Paper Mario
Mario Strikers Charged
Metroid Prime 3
I...think that's the lot. Nothing there is really garbage per se, aside from BBA which suffers from being at the wrong price and Wii Play that fortunately is only $10.
But it is Nintendo's responsibility to ensure there's a good flow of third party stuff coming along too, no matter how much they like to pretend it isn't. In that, they have failed, badly.