None of these hypotheticals would have done as much damage as the Republicans and the media did to Hillary over the course of years. Bernie would have had a much better shot than Hillary in the rust belt states that Hillary lost in the general, like Michigan and Pennsylvania.
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Fox News:Bernie Sanders and Planned Parenthood are the most popular things in America
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None of these hypotheticals would have done as much damage as the Republicans and the media did to Hillary over the course of years. Bernie would have had a much better shot than Hillary in the rust belt states that Hillary lost in the general, like Michigan and Pennsylvania.
the right actually understands what's going on and is correctly scared of america's growing support for socialism. democrats somehow still think that people want what they've always been offering.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
the right actually understands what's going on and is correctly scared of america's growing support for socialism. democrats somehow still think that people want what they've always been offering.
what was the base membership in the DSA.
Tripling something small is still something small.
Oh sorry about worrying if my country has just installed a puppet from a rival major power, go on ahead and pretend people want to be taxed for single payer healthcare, see how that works out on a nationwide level.
Bernie lost PA to Hillary by 12 points. He had no base there.
It's all the more damning because they kept landlines balanced with cellphones even though we skew towards cellphones now. This strongly indicates older Americans are already becoming tired of Trump because those landline percentages is what typically accounts for Fox's lack of alignment with other polling sources.
JonnyDBrit
Member
I think he's honestly become more important post-Presidency than he was or would have been as President. He's close enough to being a democrat for those on the left wing to listen to him, but also not enough of a democrat for Republicans to be put off by him. Indeed, his loss to Hillary serves to 'prove' he's a more genuine politician than most, and the lack of attack by the Republican campaign machine leaves him relatively unscathed by scandal. The result: He has been granted a relatively rare position of neutral, moral authority in American politics, but he's not quite so neutral as he seems.
The primary results really don't mean that much. Hillary was more popular with regular Democrats that were more likely to vote in primaries. Bernie appealed to left-leaning independents that may have not shown up to the primaries.
i think currently they're at about 20,000, which is still pretty impressive
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Not to mention the anti establishment wings of both side of the isle.
People also forget that well, I think some of America was more ready for a black *man* to be president than a white *woman* as sad as it is to say.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
So lets be generous and say that nationwide we're talking about a quadrupling of their base and rounding it up to a nice even 100,000.
How is that remotely impressive when you're trying to frame it in the context of America's growing support for 'socialism' and how the Democrats need to embrace their ideals.
Valid points but wistfully thinking about what could have been doesn't do us much good right now.
Yeah, you really got to convince the Democrats of what you can do for them before they need be bothered listening to you. This is SOP at this point. Thanks for the reminder, Boss.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No you need to convince the people that actual socialist policy and really liberal stuff is good for them(hint that's hard when you need to follow everything up with raising taxes or having something cost more with greater long term benefits), and unlike the currently romantic idea that America is becoming more liberal and embracing socialist concepts will create an automatic win.
Because I have real world evidence to show that stuff like single payer healthcare will bomb if brought up to a vote, even in a fairly liberal area.
This is all wishful thinking.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
The DSA isn't a "party" like the Greens or anything. They're an organizing/activist group that focuses on getting socialists from any party (including the Democrats) elected.
It also costs money to join, with the implicit insinuation that you'll be showing up to meetings, working for candidates during election time, engaging with other activism outside of that like helping unions organize or NoDAPL. Getting a surge in people willing to do all that is a big deal
Ah, yes, I imagine you're probably still giddy about the result in Colorado. However, there's all sorts of polls showing pretty good support for federally-funded health care nationally. But, unfortunately, that argument is over, right?
"Single-payer will never happen."
Oh yeah, forgot about that. Why fantasize about that pie up there in the sky when we've already got a perfectly decent pile of shit on the ground? I mean, the Republicans have the keys to the machine that moves the Overton window and I doubt they'll give those up any time soon. Stagnation or bust woohoo see y'all in 2018!
Veritigo_X
Member
Having a socialist group like the DSA triple in numbers is a huge deal. Especially since there are membership dues that you have to pay into. We're not talking about 100,000 people doing something as simple as registering for a party.
And everybody saying that Bernie wouldn't have had a shot after being hit with standard socialism attacks was all conjecture. Personally, I think the Republicans knew that "socialism" stopped being an effective attack because they never used that label on Clinton. They found "corrupt" and "liar" were far more effective, and those labels wouldn't have stuck on Bernie.
At that town hall he did in the Trump county I later found out that after it was over he stayed and talked with people individually as they aired their grievances.
Bernie is pretty damn rad
An empathetic human being. There probably isn't a single one like that in the current administration.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
This is what happens when a state tries to do it's own single payer system.
If you can bring me actual, real world evidence of this socialist revolution happening in the underbelly of America I'll be more than happy to sign on and donate.
But unfortunately we just voted in Trump and installed conservatives in all three branches of our government so sorry if I'm more than a little skeptical of this claim that if we were just all a bit more socialist we would be doing gangbusters.
Frozenprince
Banned
Nonsense we have to have four Bernie threads and six Hilary hate wanks a week.
This is what happens when a state tries to do it's own single payer system.
If you can bring me actual, real world evidence of this socialist revolution happening in the underbelly of America I'll be more than happy to sign on and donate.
But unfortunately we just voted in Trump and installed conservatives in all three branches of our government so sorry if I'm more than a little skeptical of this claim that if we were just all a bit more socialist we would be doing gangbusters.
I liked how you cropped the part of the quote where he mentioned Colorado...
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
He edited his post
gutter_trash
Banned
This is what happens when a state tries to do it's own single payer system.
If you can bring me actual, real world evidence of this socialist revolution happening in the underbelly of America I'll be more than happy to sign on and donate.
But unfortunately we just voted in Trump and installed conservatives in all three branches of our government so sorry if I'm more than a little skeptical of this claim that if we were just all a bit more socialist we would be doing gangbusters.
this proves the case that Direct Democracy (ballot box initiatives) to be flawed.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Alex_Mexico
Member
At that town hall he did in the Trump county I later found out that after it was over he stayed and talked with people individually as they aired their grievances.
Bernie is pretty damn rad
Is there any article that reported on that? I'd like to know what happened there.
Exit polling suggests only 20% of total voters PERIOD wanted someone to the left of Obama. I'm not sure how someone who couldn't even win their primary and said all of America's problems were due to billionares was supposed to win an election where America actually wanted a billionare, never mind the absence of any actionable plans and the Socialist stigma.
Bernie is 'popular' in the same way that if he had been the nominee and lost then Hillary would be the most popular thing in America.
Bernie is 'popular' in the same way that if he had been the nominee and lost then Hillary would be the most popular thing in America.
This is what happens when a state tries to fund it's own single payer system.
If you can bring me actual, real world evidence of this socialist revolution happening in the underbelly of America I'll be more than happy to sign on and donate.
But unfortunately we just voted in Trump and installed conservatives in all three branches of our government so sorry if I'm more than a little skeptical of this claim that if we were just all a bit more socialist we would be doing gangbusters.
Yes, I know a single payer system was voted down in Colorado. I'd prefer that be done on a federal level. A lot of the opposition from the left came from the same viewpoint.
If Gallup can produce a poll that has 58% of Americans in favor of "Replacing the ACA with a federally funded healthcare program providing insurance for all Americans", then I don't know if I'm quite ready to accept the ACA as being the farthest to the left we can get on healthcare (http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx).
I know the labels make this whole argument easier, but fuck the labels. Nobody is saying we need to run in to rural Kentucky and plaster their trees with posters about socialism. It's about the policies. We live on a planet where a non insignificant number of people simultaneously hold the views that "the ACA is great for me" and "Obamacare is an unconstitutional disaster." I think there's some room to play around in that headspace.
More polling on American's thoughts on healthcare over the years: http://www.gallup.com/poll/4708/healthcare-system.aspx
I've got to ignore the red-baiting because the whole relitigation of the primary is silly and I'm sorry for my contribution but this is some good stuff...
Have you ever been to America?
SecretMoblin
Member
It's super weird that after more than a decade of Fox News/Opinion Dynamics polls, people still think the polling operation is tightly linked with their right-wing television personalities.
It's a respectable polling outfit, shit ain't Rasmussen or Zogby.
It's like when people conflate local Fox affiliates with "Fox News", or even Fox Studios.
It's a respectable polling outfit, shit ain't Rasmussen or Zogby.
It's like when people conflate local Fox affiliates with "Fox News", or even Fox Studios.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
There is a lot that goes into a ballot action like that. Ohio not legalizing weed doesn't mean the state doesn't want it, it means they didn't like the proposal law that would have passed, and for good reason, it would have created monopolies there.
With that said, I don't know what he colorado single payer bill was like or how it was framed during the campaign.
With that said, I don't know what he colorado single payer bill was like or how it was framed during the campaign.
SoundsOfScience
Member
Got my vote
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Sample size and margin of error have an inverse relationship. As sample size increases, the margin of error decreases. In fact, increasing a sample size beyond some arbitrary point gives you diminished results and the increase in accuracy will be negligible. Hence, why you do not see sample sizes of say 10k because it is a waste of time and money.
A basic course in statistics should be taught in high-school. It is one of the most applicable fields of math that one can learn. It helps you spot bullshit from a mile away in regards to reading articles and/or studies.
A basic course in statistics should be taught in high-school. It is one of the most applicable fields of math that one can learn. It helps you spot bullshit from a mile away in regards to reading articles and/or studies.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
I know Sanders would be a bit too old for a Presidential run I think, but couldn't we put him into the VP spot? Seems like a no brainer.
Why do you guys let Fox News and OP's crappy title bait you like this?
I'm pretty sure a candidate running with a nearly singular focus to push the country in a direction it doesn't want to go, while under performing greatly on other issues, would be skewered too. That's the democracy we live in.
I'm pretty sure a candidate running with a nearly singular focus to push the country in a direction it doesn't want to go, while under performing greatly on other issues, would be skewered too. That's the democracy we live in.
The way it was advertised, the against side focused on tax increases, the for side focused on the fact that even with the tax increases citizens would pay less out of pocket in the net outcome. Suffice to say, people heard tax increase and tuned everything else out.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Uh, no it's not. The title conclusion is obviously nonsense, but the margin of error in the poll is sufficient to conclude that Trump's popularity is substantially below the things being identified as popular (provided appropriate sample design, appropriate adjustments for non-response bias, and 19 times out 20) -- noting that it's a poll of registered voters, not likely voters. What is your concern with the sample size?
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Would insurance companies just become a government bureaucracy under it? Did they discuss price controls? I feel like most healthcare discussions made my politicians don't even talk about the fact that the industry is way way inflated. I think its time for those people to take a pay cut. They will be fine.
Baron Aloha
A Shining Example
It depends how you frame the question. "Do you want someone to the left of X" is not the same as "are you in favor of policy Y". More than 20% of total voters support leftist policies.
Also, matchups... a primary is not the same voting block as the general. Hillary did better among older democrats (who make up the majority of voters in the primary). Bernie won people under 45 and more importantly independents (who broke for Trump in the general). Turns out you need more than just democrats (29% of voters) to win an election. Who knew?
And Hillary will never be popular. She's not even likable.
friskykillface
Banned
Bernie the god
The hype train never stops
The hype train never stops
People are in favor of single payer until they realize it's their taxes going up to pay for it. Because if there's one phrase that is most dreaded in American politics, it's "tax increases". Fucked up as that is, it's the truth of the matter.
That's not to say single payer is impossible, it is. It will just take a lot of time and effort, and smaller bills to get the US there.
sounds fake, guns rule America.
The thing is people love the things they use, like Medicaid and Medicare and Planned Parenthood and don't believe politicians will actually change them, only that they say it to gain votes. You see it in interviews after elections all the time.
Glass Shark
Banned
Fox News is getting shook by socialism lately
Gotta prep their next big enemy
Ziltoidia 9
Member
This is exactly it. They are afraid of him running in 2020.
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