That question has nothing to do with how the game has aged and everything to do with how emotional people get about it.
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Giant Bombcast - 02/10/15
- Thread starter daydream
- Start date
That question has nothing to do with how the game has aged and everything to do with how emotional people get about it.
I'd understand people getting emotional about people shitting on a good game regardless of whether I had nostalgia for it.
I mean, I don't in Giant Bomb's case because it's par for the course for GB, but if someone were to try and argue that a game I liked on a mechanical level was bad on a mechanical level I'm sure I'd get heated.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I'll admit to being an adolescent when the game first came out... but I replay it regularly and age and wisdom haven't caused me to notice any new problems* outside of the jaggies/blurry textures/framerate issues inherent in revisiting any N64 title. Heck, I actually loaded up the Virtual Console version last night and I've been having a blast playing about 3 hours of it so far, barely even setting foot outside of town. It really is an incredibly rich and unique game where you come to appreciate how much almost pointless level of detail is packed into it, how the sidequests are intertwined, how you can discover a sidequest or story element in a bunch of different ways (which really makes it feel like a 3 day span of time centering around a pair of important impending events), the uniqueness of the three different races and how they all have unique powers, the surprisingly frank and mature stories of these people, the heartwarming way that people express their gratitude as their wants and regrets are eased as the end draws near, the heartbreaking way that it sometimes feels like Link is honestly exploiting them with his powers to get what he wants, the fact that you honestly cannot save and help everyone (something the game makes tragically clear in the ending, even if you 100% it), and even at the very end it is finding ways to be surreal.
People get emotional about Majora's Mask because Majora's Mask is a very, very emotional game that deliberately draws on feelings of helplessness, loneliness, loss, regret, love, redemption, and healing.
*That's not quite true. The one major problem I have now is that I have the sidequests so ingrained in my brain now that I can't really organically stumble across them and try to figure them out any more. I can (and have) do like 6-7 of them in the first cycle after you become human again. I honestly wish I could forget all of that, because learning all of that in the first place is such a wonderful experience.
People get emotional about Majora's Mask because Majora's Mask is a very, very emotional game that deliberately draws on feelings of helplessness, loneliness, loss, regret, love, redemption, and healing.
*That's not quite true. The one major problem I have now is that I have the sidequests so ingrained in my brain now that I can't really organically stumble across them and try to figure them out any more. I can (and have) do like 6-7 of them in the first cycle after you become human again. I honestly wish I could forget all of that, because learning all of that in the first place is such a wonderful experience.
People defend what they consider to be a good game when someone shits on it regardless of nostalgia. And it's a Zelda game so of course the outcry would be pretty loud, so I don't think it's all that out of the ordinary.
GillianSeed79
Member
Nevermind.
ShockingAlberto
Member
The nostalgia argument, regardless of the game, is never a good one to bring to the table.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I actually hated Majora's Mask when it came out. I thought it was lazy for reusing assets, lame because it only had a few dungeons, and creepy. I actually didn't really appreciate it until several years later. I think there are a lot of small, annoying problems with the game mechanically - I still don't like the save system, even though I understand it's meant to tie into the gameplay - but I think it's artistically the most interesting Zelda ever made. The story is weird, relatively small scale, and deeply personal in a way that a lot of Zelda games aren't. That's another reason I didn't really enjoy it as a young adult.
Also, I dunno if MM can really fall into mid 90s nostalgia. It came out in 2000 and another reason I was probably sour on it when I first played it was because I had been reading magazine articles about MGS2.
plasmawave
Banned
Destiny?
Typographenia
Member
Brad, I'm honestly surprised that Majora hasn't interested you more than you make it sound.
MM is sprinkled with some wonderful side stories that are told with a subtlety and poetic quality that tends to be lacking in Zelda's narratives. You've always struck me as a man that enjoyed the side stories in games, so it's a little sad to see you missing out on that content. I totally understand not wanting to have to wade through control and design decisions that you don't like though. It's definitely not everyone's piece of cake!
MM is sprinkled with some wonderful side stories that are told with a subtlety and poetic quality that tends to be lacking in Zelda's narratives. You've always struck me as a man that enjoyed the side stories in games, so it's a little sad to see you missing out on that content. I totally understand not wanting to have to wade through control and design decisions that you don't like though. It's definitely not everyone's piece of cake!
SuperStiltzkin
Member
GB's new review score formula.
Reviewer's Tilt + Fun Factor - Mid-'-90's Nostalgia Effect = x number of stars.
Except that when other games get bashed I rarely hear people say stuff like "OMG I had to turn the podcast off" or say that the MM bashing is like hearing a "trigger word" (a term commonly associated with victims of rape, abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorder).
Some people's emotional attachment to the game seems a little unhealthy. Don't let the thing(s) you love define your own identity and criticism won't seem quite as personal or cutting.
I wish Rorie was on more too. He plays a good amount of games, is funny and has a background in game development.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I play Majore when I was Kid and I felt that I wasted my money and I lend the game to a cousin. Years later, my cousin returned the game (we live far away and only visto in holidays) and say that I should play this game as is actually pretty awesome.
I played again and it was indeed pretty awesome.
Still, I feel that people have a point that can be a intimidating game to play after playing Ocarina of the Time. OoT was to me all about taking my time and explore, while Majora starts with "you die in three days" "oh... You traveled back?, let's repeat this. Solve the puzzle before dying".
I played again and it was indeed pretty awesome.
Still, I feel that people have a point that can be a intimidating game to play after playing Ocarina of the Time. OoT was to me all about taking my time and explore, while Majora starts with "you die in three days" "oh... You traveled back?, let's repeat this. Solve the puzzle before dying".
BlastProcessing
Member
What are video games, if not something to have emotions about?
Lol. Isn't this exactly what was said on the podcast last week?
Misterinenja
Member
Roll your eyes if you want, but people who are in their 20s now were little kids when the N64 and PSX were big, and those happen to be the platforms and games people get weirdly defensive about on the regular.
Edit: For example, the people in this thread acting like I'm not allowed to dislike a game I bought at release and didn't care for after playing it a few hours. Are you surprised I'm trying to psychoanalyze that kind of nonsense?
I think people get defensive about games for many other platforms, on the regular.
Jimmyfenix
Member
i am 20
PSX is the best consoles ever for me
because it was my first
never had an n64 or anything nintendo that time
PSX is the best consoles ever for me
because it was my first
never had an n64 or anything nintendo that time
Nose Master
Member
I only played it for the first time a few years ago, it's solid. I actually like it better than OoT (which I played during my "everything is amazing" child years). Once you get over the whole repetition business by exploiting it with two songs, you barely even notice the mechanic is there. I'm not really a Zelda plot guy either (I think the entire concept of the timeline should have stayed fanboy horseshit), but the plot was refreshingly dark for a Zelda game. Bit more going on than "Ganon's back again!"
I'm enjoying GB content as much as ever. Still, the crew's opinions haven't gelled with mine much lately. Some examples:
Claiming MM was an afterthought based on how quickly it came after OoT. That seems like an extremely short-sighted thing to say. Am I to discount Revolver because it came a year after Rubber Soul? Or Sgt. Pepper's because it came a year after Revolver? I felt like a fair amount of Wind Waker was typical Zelda, but with a new skin. MM, from an outsider's perspective, feels like Zelda's Ivalice, an alternate darker setting within a greater series of games. I'll know for sure once I give it a proper look this Friday. Brad sounded mildly interested, if not lukewarm on the 3DS version a couple weeks ago on the podcast while Jeff was out. With Jeff back on and discrediting it, Brad decided to jump in and join him. A real shame, and I appreciate Dan's insistence on standing up and providing a well-informed perspective on the game.
I love that Brad played some Quake during UPF, but he said something about players jumping back into Quake after Q2 came out because Q2 wasn't as good. That could not have been further from the truth based on my own experiences. Many of my friends at LAN parties built new computers and upgraded to dual-Voodoo 2s just for Q2. Watching Thresh play and having the chance to play against him a few times really brought that game home for me. His 1on1 and FFA play was spectacular. Those maps were great, and q2dm1 remains my favorite multiplayer map to this day. Brad doesn't strafe-jump nor does he care for the railgun, so I can see why the game wasn't for him. However, I'm surprised at his dismissal of map control. Roshan fights wouldn't be the same if players could see a respawn timer, and a portion of that strategy holds true for Quake map control as well.
Dan has banked some serious goodwill for bringing up Dr. J vs Larry Bird awhile back.
Claiming MM was an afterthought based on how quickly it came after OoT. That seems like an extremely short-sighted thing to say. Am I to discount Revolver because it came a year after Rubber Soul? Or Sgt. Pepper's because it came a year after Revolver? I felt like a fair amount of Wind Waker was typical Zelda, but with a new skin. MM, from an outsider's perspective, feels like Zelda's Ivalice, an alternate darker setting within a greater series of games. I'll know for sure once I give it a proper look this Friday. Brad sounded mildly interested, if not lukewarm on the 3DS version a couple weeks ago on the podcast while Jeff was out. With Jeff back on and discrediting it, Brad decided to jump in and join him. A real shame, and I appreciate Dan's insistence on standing up and providing a well-informed perspective on the game.
I love that Brad played some Quake during UPF, but he said something about players jumping back into Quake after Q2 came out because Q2 wasn't as good. That could not have been further from the truth based on my own experiences. Many of my friends at LAN parties built new computers and upgraded to dual-Voodoo 2s just for Q2. Watching Thresh play and having the chance to play against him a few times really brought that game home for me. His 1on1 and FFA play was spectacular. Those maps were great, and q2dm1 remains my favorite multiplayer map to this day. Brad doesn't strafe-jump nor does he care for the railgun, so I can see why the game wasn't for him. However, I'm surprised at his dismissal of map control. Roshan fights wouldn't be the same if players could see a respawn timer, and a portion of that strategy holds true for Quake map control as well.
Dan has banked some serious goodwill for bringing up Dr. J vs Larry Bird awhile back.
Really sounds like you guys are shitting on a good game just to point out how emotional people get towards such criticisms.
Jimmyfenix
Member
What about Yoshi's Island?
XANDER CAGE
Member
I mean, like... how is "this game is shit poop fart" not an emotional response?
edit: I'll point out that I don't think it's Wrong or Bad to dislike MM, and lord knows I think it's not really worth getting defensive over products people like or dislike, but it's pretty weird to write people who disagree off with "90s nostalgia."
edit: I'll point out that I don't think it's Wrong or Bad to dislike MM, and lord knows I think it's not really worth getting defensive over products people like or dislike, but it's pretty weird to write people who disagree off with "90s nostalgia."
I was LTTP (2008 or 2009 IIRC), but I'd say Majora's Mask is my favourite Zelda game, closely edging out Wind Waker. I was indeed a kid when it released, but I only played it when I was 20/21. The thing that sold me on it to go back and try it was reading Edge Magazine called it the "oddest, darkest and saddest" Zelda game, which just sounded so interesting I couldn't not play it.
It's probably my favourite because it has some of the best writing/character work I've ever seen in a Nintendo game and I really do enjoy the three day cycle and fooling around with the world and how it affects things. I think I spent a whole play through just seeing how the townspeople reacted to things, and seriously some of the best shit is watching them cope with an impending armageddon.
I can appreciate some of the gameplay is a little dicey (Jeff's right, mask switching is annoying as shit) and the temples are nothing to write home about (though Goht is in my opinion the best boss fight in any Zelda game ever), but enough of it is strong enough that I can forgive it those flaws.
But most of all (and Wind Waker is the same), it tried something different, which I always appreciate. It's probably why Twilight Princess is my least favourite of the modern Zeldas because I felt it was the least willing to break from the mould set down by OOT.
It's probably my favourite because it has some of the best writing/character work I've ever seen in a Nintendo game and I really do enjoy the three day cycle and fooling around with the world and how it affects things. I think I spent a whole play through just seeing how the townspeople reacted to things, and seriously some of the best shit is watching them cope with an impending armageddon.
Stuff like the Sword Master cowering and begging for his life, or Kafei and Anju sagely accepting their fate on the Dawn of the Final Day at the end of their questline makes me sad Nintendo didn't do this stuff more often in the future.
I can appreciate some of the gameplay is a little dicey (Jeff's right, mask switching is annoying as shit) and the temples are nothing to write home about (though Goht is in my opinion the best boss fight in any Zelda game ever), but enough of it is strong enough that I can forgive it those flaws.
But most of all (and Wind Waker is the same), it tried something different, which I always appreciate. It's probably why Twilight Princess is my least favourite of the modern Zeldas because I felt it was the least willing to break from the mould set down by OOT.
GillianSeed79
Member
I know you are being sarcastic, but I think Brad's point last week wasn't that the N64 was a bad console but that it's importance in the grand scheme of console gaming is largely overblown and overrated these days largely by members of the gaming community whose first-ever console was, surprise, an N64. There's a bit a revisionist history when it comes to the N64 thanks in no small part to nostalgia. Stating that it's just Sony fanboy stuff when people say the PSX was more popular and arguably more influential than the N64, especially when it comes to hardware performance, is just stupid. Nintendo went from a monopoly position with the NES to fending off Sega in the late 16-bit days with overwhelming 3rd party support to the N64 - a cartridge-based system with a so-so game library and a few seminal games like SM64 and OoT. While Sony snatched up the FF franchise, Nintendo was left with the likes of Quest 64 for example. I'm not some Sony fanboy either. I used to be a Sega fanboy, but even back then I could admit the PSX was better than the Saturn and N64. The death of the Dreamcast still hurts through.
BlastProcessing
Member
I think he was just poking fun at the idea that a game that came out in 2000 could be affected by the Mid-90's Nostalgia effect. Man, that game came out later than I remembered, I was a freshman in college, yeesh.
You are allowed to dislike a game (I don't have any particular love for Majora). People just get tetchy when people make proclamations about why they like or dislike a game.
I dunno, people get weirdly defensive when Jeff criticizes a game like Yoshi's Island or Resident Evil 4 too, and those games were released both before and after the N64/PS1 gen respectively. I see people get weirdly defensive when Wii U games are criticized. When PS4 games are criticized. I mean, you'd have to be crazy to get all emotional and defensive about a PS4 game...
When much beloved games are criticized on a platform like the Giant Bombcast (in other words, a popular program ran by trusted gaming personalities), people are going to get emotional about it. I don't think it has much to do with nostalgia at all.
Not sure why people get defensive about this stuff at all. Jeff just dismissed D&D on the Bombcast and hiking on Danswers. I love both of those things. He's entitled to his opinion.
Haunted
Member
One of the best games ever made and a worthy direct sequel to Super Mario World.
Just because Jeff is usually wrong about games doesn't mean he's wrong about all of them!
MiniBossBattle
Member
Jeff is right about Majora and Yoshi's Island. Might as well be called Super Mario Gaiden - Dinosaurs.
Leafhopper
Banned
I got to the MM part.
Jeff's right, people that dislike Wind Waker are assholes.
This is fact.
Jeff's right, people that dislike Wind Waker are assholes.
This is fact.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It being good is subjective. The people who shit on it obviously don't think it's good, mechanically or otherwise. Getting emotional or heated over someone else's opinion on the quality of a video game is sorta dumb.
Just got to the Majora's Mask part in contention and... isn't that exactly what's going on in the Bombcast?
I said it was like being triggered, and I meant it in the most sarcastic, tumblr-parodying way. If that bothered anyone, I apologize.
Ninja Scooter
Member
That's sort of it. Dan really, really likes Majora's Mask. Brad and Jeff don't. They have a fairly entertaining convo about it and Dan moves on. He doesn't go ape shit. He doesn't say "I can't take this anymore" and storm off. He doesn't accuse Brad and Jeff of hating Nintendo and being "bias!!". It's not that serious.
Pinko Marx
Banned
I don't know why you're surprised at such a heavy backlash when you and Jeff called the game a "bag of shit". When you push an exaggerated(?) opinion, you should expect a similar degree of push back.
I'm not fond of the game either and I enjoyed the discussion. However, I don't think the reaction is unwarranted.
Yeah, stuff like this (even knowing it's tongue in cheek) combined with shit like "hurrr Brad just has to agree with Jeff" or "hates games without playing them~!" when like, dude, I bought the game when it came out and didn't like it just makes me go FUUUUCK YOOOOUUUUUUU
Okay I'm done.
Leafhopper
Banned
Also it's 4.5 thousand dollars for Train Simulator 2015 DLC now.
Damn.
Damn.