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[walking fiend]

I'm not sure if you're arguing that Super Meat Boy has content but not replay value, or replay value but not content, but it factually has both.

1) Content-wise, it's got about 300 stages, including the hidden warp zones, glitch levels, Dark World stages. Then you have a stage editor, custom users stages ("Internets" content packs on XBL version).

2) Replay value-wise, you can replay any level with 10 unique characters. You can replay to get the unlockables. You can replay to get the achievements on either platform--the Steam achievements have "Finish <x world> without dying" for each world which is really really amazing if you know the game. You can use the stage editor to edit stages. There are leaderboards and replays for sharing online and competing with friends.

I don't think anyone who played the game could doubt either of these aspects.

Content wise.
textures, enemies, total length of music, stage mechanisms, architecture in levels, they are just not even remotely as much as NSMB.

Let me put it this way, how many hours can one play SMB and the claim that s/he has seen enough to know every next level will be a remix of the past levels? What about NSMB?

 

[Tunin]

I agree and disagree with him at the same time.
Nintendo's formula for these kind of games is pure gold, they know what they're doing and they understand that simplistic approaches is one of the marks of their games, so why change it?
The rest of the article is just plain bullshit.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Content wise.
textures, enemies, total length of music, stage mechanisms, architecture in levels, they are just not even remotely as much as NSMB.

Let me put it this way, how many hours can one play SMB and the claim that s/he has seen enough to know every next level will be a remix of the past levels? What about NSMB?

Are you suggesting that the "amount of content" in a game is literally equal to the total size of the assets it contains? Is Heavy Rain a more content heavy game than NSMB because it contains more polygons?

Are you saying that Tetris is the most shallow game ever because the entirety of its contents can be experienced in 20 seconds or so?

 

[walking fiend]

What game doesn't have a "limited set of assets and contents"? That restriction certainly applies to 2D Mario games, you can essentially boil every one of them down to a few major themes.

In DOTA and WC3 you are playing through the same content over and over again, and the differences come from the users themselves because the experience is a multiplayer game. We're not talking about that with SMB, we're talking about experiencing all of the stages one time each. If two levels feature the same mechanisms and traps in completely different arrangements it's not fair to say, "oh, this level is just replay value because it's basically the same as the other level." If that were the case than any 2D Mario game could be reduced to a template of 5 levels or less. Regardless, SMB constantly introduces new mechanisms throughout the entirety of the game, and the rate at which this new material is introduced is easily equal to almost any other 2D platformer.

The only way the DOTA and WC3 argument would work in this case is if we were talking about literally playing the same levels in SMB over and over again. If you think that is a legitimate description of the game then I can only say I doubt that you have played it substantially.

No. You cannot create new experiences in SMB without designing new levels.
In DOTA, each new level trap place is actually where your opponent(s) are, or where you allies are. It is actually pretty much the same, you just move the place of platforms and threats in SMB, in DOTA you change heroes abilities and place of heroes and the strategy they may use changes each time. But just as in SMB the traps and platform and basic elemets remain the same, the total possible combination of heroes remain the same; it is only their place and their arrangement in time (versus their arrangement in a level physical space) that changes.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

No. You cannot create new experiences in SMB without designing new levels.
In DOTA, each new level trap place is actually where your opponent(s) are, or where you allies are. It is actually pretty much the same, you just move the place of platforms and threats in SMB, in DOTA you change heroes abilities and place of heroes and the strategy they may use changes each time. But just as in SMB the traps and platform and basic elemets remain the same, the total possible combination of heroes remain the same; it is only their place and their arrangement in time (versus their arrangement in a level physical space) that changes.

Everything you just said can be related just as easily to NSMB. Have you played Super Meat Boy? Do you realize that new mechanisms are introduced throughout the entirety of the game?

 

[Penguin]

Also hasn't IGN sold this article before?

Wasn't there an article comparing New Super Mario Bros Wii to Plosion Man, and why that was a better investment/game due to having 80 levels and online co-op?

 

[Pathetic Basement Virgin]

They shouldn't change. I want my SMB 3-II Nintendo.

 

[walking fiend]

Are you suggesting that the "amount of content" in a game is literally equal to the total size of the assets it contains? Is Heavy Rain a more content heavy game than NSMB because it contains more polygons?

Are you saying that Tetris is the most shallow game ever because the entirety of its contents can be experienced in 20 seconds or so?

Don't try to sound smart. Polygons are not recognizable objects by themselves, enemies or music is.

Tetris certainly lacks content. It just has a super complex and sophisticated gameplay mechanism, just like chess.

I prefer to describe the nature of Tetris by saying it has a very high replay value, rather than saying it has infinite content.

But you should better stick to the fact that SMB levels are not created by AI or randomness and I may try to revise my position, Tetris certainly won't help here.

Everything you just said can be related just as easily to NSMB. Have you played Super Meat Boy? Do you realize that new mechanisms are introduced throughout the entirety of the game?

Yes, but the mechanisms are not what you are basing your argument on, you are basing it merely on the amount of levels.

If you want to base the content of SMB on mechanisms, we may begin a new comparison.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Content wise.
textures, enemies, total length of music, stage mechanisms, architecture in levels, they are just not even remotely as much as NSMB.

What you're describing here simply isn't true. Super Meat Boy introduces a new mechanic in virtually every level. Some of those mechanics are enemies, some obstacles (Mario's balance is significantly more tilted towards towards enemies than obstacles versus Meat Boy's, so it doesn't make sense to separate the two).

In terms of "stage architecture", which I'm assuming refers to the theme of a stage rather than the mechanics, I'd first of all say that theme isn't important to consider here. 'Splosion Man only had one stage theme, and not having multiple stage themes definitely made the game feel dragged out and undiverse, but it has nothing to do with the actual diversity or amount of content. Second of all, Meat Boy has 6 themed worlds to Mario's 8, plus the Dark World stages typically included a visual remix including but not limited to time-of-day changes, or silhouetting. Third of all, if you include the glitch levels, Game Boy warp zones, etc. the visual variety continues to grow. I feel they are both about on par with each other.

The only things textured in both games are the stage themes and the enemies/obstacles/level design mechanics, so I'll count that as addressed. What's left is "music". NSMB and NSMBWii have more music than Meat Boy, but I hated the music in all three games. Meat Boy's music irritated me more on average, but the terrible pipe organ synth in the castles in NSMBWii is the single worst sample I've ever heard in a game.

In the mean time, Meat Boy also has a significant variety of play-style using the different characters which Mario does not have. Both games make good use of speed-running where the optimal traversal path differs from the typical traversal path.

Let me put it this way, how many hours can one play SMB and the claim that s/he has seen enough to know every next level will be a remix of the past levels? What about NSMB?

The answer for both games would be "at least one complete playthrough", because Super Meat Boy isn't one one thousandth as repetitive or re-using as you're claiming it is, and I'd say complete playthrough times are about the same as each. Mario has cannon warps and so can be finished in as short as ~1 hour your first time through, but typically it'd be more like 10-15, which I'd say is about equal to Meat Boy. *shrugs*

 

[Tain]

people are going buck wild with this "content" term right now.

 

[miksar]

Neither did IGN.

 

[jgminto]

Don't try to sound smart. Polygons are not recognizable objects by themselves, enemies or music is.

Tetris certainly lacks content. It just has a super complex and sophisticated gameplay mechanism, just like chess.

I prefer to describe the nature of Tetris by saying it has a very high replay value, rather than saying it has infinite content.

But you should better stick to the fact that SMB levels are not created by AI or randomness and I may try to revise my position, Tetris certainly won't help here.

Wow. I can usually respect people's opinions but that's just flat out wrong. Enemies and music aren't content. They are assets that are used to create content. If new content stopped the second the last enemy was introduced then every game would be half as long. A level is content. If you played SMB you would know that the levels can be extremely different from each other.

 

[Dark Octave]

The really laughable bit isn't actually the DLC thing; I'd love extra Mario levels and I loved the ghetto-DLC for SMB3 on GBA via eReader levels. And I would like leaderboards--most of the games in question have local leaderboards anyway, might as well make them actually useful. And I would like online play especially in ground-up co-op games like DKCR and NSMBWii. So those bits aren't crazy to me. I mean, the point they're supporting is pretty damn crazy, but those things are good things.

... The thing that's crazy to me is the "true 5.1 sound". Really? In a 2d platformer? How could there be true 5.1 sound? The game takes place on a flat plane; sounds can only come from the left or the right. Why on earth would they benefit from 5.1 sound?



Super Meat Boy.

There are a lot of 2D games that have enemies and such coming in from the foreground and background, even in the SNES days. It could be useful there. I do agree with you on everything else you said.

 

[ElFly]

The really laughable bit isn't actually the DLC thing; I'd love extra Mario levels and I loved the ghetto-DLC for SMB3 on GBA via eReader levels. And I would like leaderboards--most of the games in question have local leaderboards anyway, might as well make them actually useful. And I would like online play especially in ground-up co-op games like DKCR and NSMBWii. So those bits aren't crazy to me. I mean, the point they're supporting is pretty damn crazy, but those things are good things.

... The thing that's crazy to me is the "true 5.1 sound". Really? In a 2d platformer? How could there be true 5.1 sound? The game takes place on a flat plane; sounds can only come from the left or the right. Why on earth would they benefit from 5.1 sound?



Super Meat Boy.

Super Meat Boy has 4 player coop?

 

[jgminto]

NSMB Wii has good 4 player coop?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Super Meat Boy has 4 player coop?

Question: So, can they name a $10 platformer with the same amount of content as NSMB Wii or DKC Returns?
Answer: Super Meat Boy

The question wasn't about having 4-player co-op. Meat Boy doesn't. It does have competitive replay / speed-run / leaderboard competitions. That's the multiplayer element.

 

[walking fiend]

What you're describing here simply isn't true. Super Meat Boy introduces a new mechanic in virtually every level. Some of those mechanics are enemies, some obstacles (Mario's balance is significantly more tilted towards towards enemies than obstacles versus Meat Boy's, so it doesn't make sense to separate the two).

In terms of "stage architecture", which I'm assuming refers to the theme of a stage rather than the mechanics, I'd first of all say that theme isn't important to consider here. 'Splosion Man only had one stage theme, and not having multiple stage themes definitely made the game feel dragged out and undiverse, but it has nothing to do with the actual diversity or amount of content. Second of all, Meat Boy has 6 themed worlds to Mario's 8, plus the Dark World stages typically included a visual remix including but not limited to time-of-day changes, or silhouetting. Third of all, if you include the glitch levels, Game Boy warp zones, etc. the visual variety continues to grow. I feel they are both about on par with each other.

The only things textured in both games are the stage themes and the enemies/obstacles/level design mechanics, so I'll count that as addressed. What's left is "music". NSMB and NSMBWii have more music than Meat Boy, but I hated the music in all three games. Meat Boy's music irritated me more on average, but the terrible pipe organ synth in the castles in NSMBWii is the single worst sample I've ever heard in a game.

In the mean time, Meat Boy also has a significant variety of play-style using the different characters which Mario does not have. Both games make good use of speed-running where the optimal traversal path differs from the typical traversal path.



The answer for both games would be "at least one complete playthrough", because Super Meat Boy isn't one one thousandth as repetitive or re-using as you're claiming it is, and I'd say complete playthrough times are about the same as each. Mario has cannon warps and so can be finished in as short as ~1 hour your first time through, but typically it'd be more like 10-15, which I'd say is about equal to Meat Boy. *shrugs*

I only have 5 minutes before having to go somewhere and will give a complete answer later, so I'll bookmark it and reply to it later.

but just lets start by saying that I meant something else when I talked about stage mechanisms, and how you liked the music is irrelevant to our discussion about content, it is about quality of content.

 

[Tain]

Sounds like a flawed question to me.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Don't try to sound smart. Polygons are not recognizable objects by themselves, enemies or music is.

Tetris certainly lacks content. It just has a super complex and sophisticated gameplay mechanism, just like chess.

I prefer to describe the nature of Tetris by saying it has a very high replay value, rather than saying it has infinite content.

But you should better stick to the fact that SMB levels are not created by AI or randomness and I may try to revise my position, Tetris certainly won't help here.

I wasn't trying to sound smart, I was just trying to get a better understanding of your argument. I apologize if I sounded a little rude or snotty. What I was trying to point out is that the "content" of a game should not be measured purely by the assets (whether it be enemies, music, polygons, etc.) it contains, because the arrangement of those assets is just as (if not more) important to the overall amount of time that can be spent experiencing new "content." The Portal series is an excellent example of this. Those games are very light on mechanisms and mechanics but they find interesting and original ways to utilize them by arranging them in new ways. The entire experience feels fresh throughout and each new puzzle isn't considered "replay value" just because many (if not all) of the assets have already been utilized in an earlier portion of the game.

Yes, but the mechanisms are not what you are basing your argument on, you are basing it merely on the amount of levels.

If you want to base the content of SMB on mechanisms, we may begin a new comparison.

SMB has plenty of content in terms of all of the aspects you mentioned, regardless of your definition of the word.

 

[Penguin]

NSMB Wii has good 4 player coop?

It has AMAZING 4 player co-op.

Some of the best gaming experience, I had this generation.

 

[SamuraiX-]

You're really gonna take a guy who looks like this seriously?

 

[Ridley327]

I don't think Mario is better off without having extra levels being made available, even for a fee, and I know it's not being entirely fair for this particular franchise due to where its focus lies, but why would you bring up DLC support as a knock against the value of Mario or DK when the only major platforming franchise offering it, this being LittleBigPlanet, focuses almost exclusively on ridiculously overpriced costumes?

 

[Stumpokapow]

I only have 5 minutes before having to go somewhere and will give a complete answer later, so I'll bookmark it and reply to it later.

but just lets start by saying that I meant something else when I talked about stage mechanisms, and how you liked the music is irrelevant to our discussion about content, it is about quality of content.

Before you reply further, can I just ask--which platform did you play Super Meat Boy on, how far did you get, what were your typical leaderboard positions, how many deaths do you have on your current save file, how many bandages did you get, which characters did you use, which levels did you find easier or harder, which mechanics did you like or dislike?

Like everyone has been saying in response to you, you aren't coming off as though you've played the game at all. I'm sure you have, since you're still replying and no one would be arguing about a game they haven't played.

Naturally, I will be happy to provide answers to all of these questions myself about either NSMBWii or Super Meat Boy if you doubt that I've played either. My Meat Boy progress as of October 23th, 2010 Proof I 100%'d the game as of October 28th, 2010 on Xbox Partial Steam replay during the summer sale showing Medium Well achievement unlocked. I guess I can go take NSMBWii photos when I get home.

 

[GaussTek]

I knew it was going to be IGN Australia. It's almost always IGN Australia.

A little late, but yep... my first reaction when I saw this thread.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I only have 5 minutes before having to go somewhere and will give a complete answer later, so I'll bookmark it and reply to it later.

but just lets start by saying that I meant something else when I talked about stage mechanisms, and how you liked the music is irrelevant to our discussion about content, it is about quality of content.

How he liked the music is certainly relevant if "it is about quality of content" because quality is a subjective term that is based on an individual's interpretation. An assessment of quality cannot exist outside of opinion.

 

[diffusionx]

I haven't read an IGN article in probably 10 years.

 

[Wendel Clark]

Sounds like most people

 

[jgminto]

It has AMAZING 4 player co-op.

Some of the best gaming experience, I had this generation.

I just found it frustrating. And I feel it plays worse with any more than 2 players. But I guess it depends on who you play with.

 

[shaneskim]

Surely 4 player coop counts as content

 

[ThatObviousUser]

They shouldn't change. I want my SMB 3-II Nintendo.

Well you're in luck because it's coming out later this year!

 

[Penguin]

I just found it frustrating. And I feel it plays worse with any more than 2 players. But I guess it depends on who you play with.

It depends on who you play with, and how you are playing.

This will sound odd, but I find the people who try and play it as a straight Mario game end up getting frustrated, but if you slow it down and actually try and work as a team, it does make it more enjoyable.

Then there's always the dick route, which is fantastic, if friends are all for it.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Surely 4 player coop counts as content

No one is arguing otherwise.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I've always wanted to see a 2D HD Mario game. I mean full hand drawn HD graphics. Completely fluid, 60 fps. All sprites. Very detailed.

I'd love to see something like that, and I really think it could revive the 2D genres of old.

 

[Stumpokapow]

It depends on who you play with, and how you are playing.

This will sound odd, but I find the people who try and play it as a straight Mario game end up getting frustrated, but if you slow it down and actually try and work as a team, it does make it more enjoyable.

Then there's always the dick route, which is fantastic, if friends are all for it.

I basically think that the best use of NSMBWii co-op is playing along-side a young kid and having him/her using the bubble mechanism when they get to a part that overwhelms them. I found it very frustrating when trying to actually have two players play the game versus one player helping the other.

On the other hand, I was a huge fan of how co-op was implemented in Mario Galaxy.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

You can't spell IGNORANCE without IGN.

Aaaaaand scene.

people are going buck wild with this "content" term right now.

Ah, I've seen you've been in the WoW threads. It's such an obfuscating Pavlov's Word.

 

[jgminto]

It depends on who you play with, and how you are playing.

This will sound odd, but I find the people who try and play it as a straight Mario game end up getting frustrated, but if you slow it down and actually try and work as a team, it does make it more enjoyable.

Then there's always the dick route, which is fantastic, if friends are all for it.

It probably didn't help that I had to play it with my 10 year old brother and 12 year old twin cousins who are always fighting. LOL

 

[Kimosabae]

Admittedly, I'm making these statements without reading through the thread:

Honestly, regardless of whatever quirks are introduced into whatever Mario game; I think it's important to Nintendo that they not "evolve" Mario (and Zelda) to conform to new industry standards. I think if Nintendo wants to stay relevant as a games-making company, focused primarily on making quality games, they must have properties that reflect that philosophy. That means keeping those properties as "simple" as the market will tolerate. Nintendo "updating" itself and its properties to a level of sophistication set by Sony/Microsoft is not an arena they can compete in and would essentially be digging their own grave.

 

[JonCha]

Clearly, this guy hasn't played Super Mario Galaxy.

 

[ElFly]

Question: So, can they name a $10 platformer with the same amount of content as NSMB Wii or DKC Returns?
Answer: Super Meat Boy

The question wasn't about having 4-player co-op. Meat Boy doesn't. It does have competitive replay / speed-run / leaderboard competitions. That's the multiplayer element.

Pfff, technicalities.

The multiplayer is an integral part of NSMBWii content. It was featured predominantly in ads and one of the main features for many of the players. And I'd say it's one of the reasons it outsold the DS version, and it easily justifies the retail price vs meat boy (it's assholish that this title has the same acronym as the nintendo series).

Just for the record, I don't think NSMB is overpriced at $50, I think SMB is under-priced at $15. Personally I found myself much more interested in the leaderboard aspect of SMB than the co-op aspect of NSMB. It's the reason why I've played SMB for 40+ hours.

Completely fair opinion.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Pfff, technicalities.

The multiplayer is an integral part of NSMBWii content. It was featured predominantly in ads and one of the main features for many of the players. And I'd say it's one of the reasons it outsold the DS version, and it easily justifies the retail price vs meat boy (it's assholish that this title has the same acronym as the nintendo series).

Just for the record, I don't think NSMB is overpriced at $50, I think SMB is under-priced at $15. Personally I found myself much more interested in the leaderboard aspect of SMB than the co-op aspect of NSMB. It's the reason why I've played SMB for 40+ hours. I think it's a wash because it comes down to personal preference.

 

[rpmurphy]

Since the SNES? WTF.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Can't say I disagree. I tried playing DKCR and couldn't get myself to play past the second level... felt like a game from the SNES era. Would've loved it back in the day, though. My tastes have evolved but some of these games haven't save for minor iterations.

 

[Boonoo]

It has AMAZING 4 player co-op.

Some of the best gaming experience, I had this generation.

Yeah, playing the whole game through with 3 other people was pretty amazing. My 1 player, 2 player, and 4 player experiences were basically 3 completely different games.

 

[.la1n]

Fir... Second post nails is.

.

 

[jett]

:lol Has anyone actually bothered reading/skimming the article? It has little to do with Mario or Donkey Kong.

Since no one has, I'll stick to the inflammatory title of this thread. Frankly the IGN writer is not wrong. The article is strictly about 2D platformers, so you can't call in SMG and what not. Both NSMBW and DKCR are very similar to their predecessors.

And Kirby's Epic Yarn is just shit masked by pretty visuals.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I somewhat agree with the writer. 2D Mario and 2D DK haven't changed since the SNES days. However, I think they both can get a break since they were only recently revived since the SNES days. Also for those complaining, yes I'd like 2D Mario and 2D DK to evolve. 2D Mario in the NES and SNES days was constantly evolving from SMB to SMB3 to SMW to SMW2:YI. I liked NSMB Wii and it may be the best 2D Mario platformer but it felt creatively uninspired. He is however factually wrong about Kirby. There is still traditional Kirby 2D platformers but there are still many quirky, gimmicky Kirby games that introduce new gameplay.

 

[cabottemp]

au.ign.com

n/m.

 

[renitou]

IGN hasn't evolved since 1999.

 

[Penguin]

I basically think that the best use of NSMBWii co-op is playing along-side a young kid and having him/her using the bubble mechanism when they get to a part that overwhelms them. I found it very frustrating when trying to actually have two players play the game versus one player helping the other.

On the other hand, I was a huge fan of how co-op was implemented in Mario Galaxy.

I agree, its an interesting way to "bridge" the appeal of gaming.

I played with my friend's 7 year old daughter, and whenever she got stuck or couldn't make a jump just bubble. Pop and can continue on.

They don't lose out on the experience because they don't have the skill.

Though it is funny, when everyone decides its a good time to all bubble together.

I've sadly never played Galaxy 1 or 2's co-op mode.

 

[Boonoo]

I've sadly never played Galaxy 1 or 2's co-op mode.

Eh, not missing much there.