i would guess it is very simple - new firmware will be introduced that "solves" this.
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New PS3 Model (CECH-4000) Registered on FCC (Jeff_Rigby alert)
- Thread starter Pooya
- Start date
i would guess it is very simple - new firmware will be introduced that "solves" this.
KennyLinder
Member
Is there still a chance it was a typo, and was meant to read "160gb"?
jeff_rigby
Banned
You have to understand that prices came from professionals and were bottom line important to the audience.
Which rumor? There are still rumors in the same 6-8X ballpark for Xbox 720. Early on there were 2-3X rumors and people like KageMaru warning us to not be expecting too much from next generation. I think he was reading the rumors that were confusing Xbox361 with Xbox 720.
Price of the Xbox 720 is hard to believe, $50 for the SOC which includes 3 PPC, GPU, multiple X86 CPUs, eDRAM and AMD southbridge. But if you look at a complete ARM Android computer in a Stick the size of a USB memory stick that sells for $30.00 retail not BOM (made in China) it starts to be believable.
shinra-bansho
Member
Rumor of a stronger CPU, weaker GPU but a lot more RAM than the PS4 - with people like bgassassin predicting a PS4 BoM ~$400 iirc.
Professionals in what way and how do you know this?
As with this obsession with an XBOX 361 - the underlying question is still - what's the point?
They'll be releasing a new console in a year's time anyway.
Even if all the technobabble is plausible it makes very little commercial and common sense - unless whatever you're proposing is going to be released doesn't fragment the installed base.
I still think the 16GB is a typo. Don't basically all games require a few gb on the HDD? It's not like on the 360 where it's strictly optional.
Maybe they're going to pull a Wii U to keep costs down and let users provide a plugin HDD if they so desire.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I dont think $225 BOM 720 is happening anymore based on the current rumors. Those slides that showed a $225 BOM for 720 were from 2010. There about 2 years old at this point. If they are true and MS ends up releasing a console only 6x 360, while Sony releases one at 8-10x the PS3 at a BOM of around $450 the next console cycle is going to be very interesting indeed. I dont think thats gonna happen, and they'll end up being a lot closer in pwer than that.
Graphics Horse
Member
What rules out Wii U?
I think there's some amount of space reserved but only for one game at a time.
Obviously there's patches and saves too.
well the thing is you NEED a HDD so this would be a very strange move. I mean GT5 alone needs about half of it.
Ah ok, still would be a bonehead idea, imho.
Graphics Horse
Member
More than half (10GB!) for a full install.
But IF it's still expandable it seems like a clever idea to me, on the condition it comes with a big price cut.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Only that the source said it was being made for Microsoft. Charlie could be totally wrong and got wrong information. It seems likely that a Xbox 361 is coming (3 cites and the Microsoft powerpoint) and timing fits for it to be the Oban. There is that Oban is a Japanese name for a large blank coin which would support WiiU or that it's being used by both Xbox 361 and a PS3 redesigned refresh (not dumb shrink).
Edit: There still is the possibility of multiple IBM 32nm production runs for WiiU, Xbox 361, PS3 that we don't know about. Toshiba sold their Cell plant to Sony and I don't think it can support 32nm.
The following is about 32nm SOI chips being produced for "Gaming" among other uses starting in Dec 2011. This is too early and at 32nm not the rumored 28nm for PS4 and Xbox720. My guess is WiiU as well as Xbox361 or PS3 4000 chassis or both. Charlie at SimiAccurate stated that he heard Oban using this node size and process was being manufactured for Microsoft. He speculated/heard it was for the Xbox720 which NOW does not seem likely.
http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120109.aspx
http://www.advancedsubstratenews.com/2012/01/gfs-ny-fab-8-debuts-with-ibms-32nm-soi/
My guess (from reading the articles) is all one SOI chip that includes Processors as well as GPU and eDRAM (larger than 10 megs and not dedicated to GPU?) This is 100% doable with little effort for Xbox360 as the Xbox360S refresh was already more than half way to this. An all on one silicon wafer would be cheaper that the Xbox 360S SOC that 2.5D attached multiple chips on a substrate.
For PS3 this is not easily possible. Dumb PS3 shrink is not possible due to the Flex I/O and Rambuss connectors on either side of the Cell so a total redesign is needed and RSX was not designed to work on SOI. My guess is to use two of the Sony patent 1PPU4SPU elements and something like the AMD GPU being used in the Xbox refresh SOC. Xbox had to emulate it's old GPU in the Xbox360S SOC refresh which was a multi-chip on substrate more expensive SOC. No reason the refreshed PS3 can't do the same. If this is what's happening for the PS3 then everything is in this Chip made for a PS3 to support Xbox360 as Xbox uses one of the PPU processors for OS duties which can be emulated safely by other hardware. Likely the same or updated southbridge used by the Xbox360S but at 32nm will be in the SOI wafer also.
In the above, there could be differences outside the SOC between Xbox361S and PS3S like wireless G for PS3 and Wireless N for Xbox.
The 320GB is 209.99 in Europe:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B005DEZO40/
The 160GB is 204.99:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B005C5XXI4/
A price drop of the 160GB is probably necessary. No sane person would choose that one over the 320GB version at its current price.
this seems pretty recent... they are probably clearing stock. It was 229/249 when I checked few weeks ago, *I THINK*.
I would guess that 250gb would be 199 and 16gb less than that, probably 149/169.
Italy 160GB for $199:
http://www.amazon.it/dp/B005C5XXI4/
21% drop... this is very recent... so clearing stock.
For you guys that claim that you will get Slim over BBQ version, this is the time
http://www.amazon.it/dp/B005C5XXI4/
21% drop... this is very recent... so clearing stock.
For you guys that claim that you will get Slim over BBQ version, this is the time
Canis lupus
Member
No. There is no difference between 160gb and 250gb.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Everything already answered, you are having a problem understanding the impact AMD building blocks and SOCs are going to have on the BOM. Take the $50.00 Xbox 720 SOC cost. It doesn't include memory or the I/O but does include Southbridge and PCIe. Subtract the cost of 8 X86 processors, 32 meg of eDRAM and much more expensive GPU and you have a Xbox 360 SOC @ what $20? Imagine wide I/O RAM is available for inside the SOC so the 10 meg of eDRAM is not needed. You have a SOC that allows for a profit when selling the Xbox at $99.00 and it has much faster hardware that can be used for the OS (more accurate voice and gesture recognition) with game mode 100% compatible at slower speeds.
"As with this obsession with an XBOX 361 - the underlying question is still - what's the point?" The point is that it's cheaper and Faster at the same time, why not take advantage of the increased performance for OS features - Dashboard and XMB do not require compatibility as both Microsoft and Sony have not allowed any applications except their own or that use (by Sept) Sony or Microsoft provided native libraries. Both can support AR and in Sony's case WebGL from the XMB and WebGL games from the browser.
Both Xbox and PS3 have to compete with much cheaper platforms for the casual market...they need some advantage and their POWER makes possible more features. It would be stupid to not use every advantage.
Some common sense needs to be used... if Tegra 3 costs $21 alone, then how in the world can 720 SOC cost $50? That makes little sense.
jeff_rigby
Banned
New Sony patent Integrated user interface and control in HDMI/CEC
Sony officially announced the PS3 CECH-2000 model on August 18, 2009 at the Sony Gamescom press conference and filed this patent Sept 17, 2009. The 2009 Slim was the first PS3 to support HDMI CEC. Now they are publishing the patent that uses CEC over HDMI to discover multiple devices and support UIs from those devices just before Gamescom 2012 where we suspect a new PS3 slimmer slim is to be announced.
Sony officially announced the PS3 CECH-2000 model on August 18, 2009 at the Sony Gamescom press conference and filed this patent Sept 17, 2009. The 2009 Slim was the first PS3 to support HDMI CEC. Now they are publishing the patent that uses CEC over HDMI to discover multiple devices and support UIs from those devices just before Gamescom 2012 where we suspect a new PS3 slimmer slim is to be announced.
New Sony patent Integrated user interface and control in HDMI/CEC
Sony officially announced the PS3 CECH-2000 model on August 18, 2009 at the Sony Gamescom press conference and filed this patent Sept 17, 2009. The 2009 Slim was the first PS3 to support HDMI CEC. Now they are publishing the patent that uses CEC over HDMI to discover multiple devices and support UIs from those devices just before Gamescom 2012 where we suspect a new PS3 slimmer slim is to be announced.
This is interesting *if* the 16Gb SSlim PS3 is real.
phosphor112
Banned
Big ass TV in that patent. Must be a Sony Trinitron.
Well, the FCC file shows a new chassis. Same "ratio" as the large... but it's impossible to be larger than the current slim.. because that's not how cost reduction works. 3 skus? One rumored is 16g... coincidence?
Well, the FCC file shows a new chassis. Same "ratio" as the large... but it's impossible to be larger than the current slim.. because that's not how cost reduction works. 3 skus? One rumored is 16g... coincidence?
phosphor112
Banned
...dp
Graphics Horse
Member
New Sony patent Integrated user interface and control in HDMI/CEC
Sony officially announced the PS3 CECH-2000 model on August 18, 2009 at the Sony Gamescom press conference and filed this patent Sept 17, 2009. The 2009 Slim was the first PS3 to support HDMI CEC. Now they are publishing the patent that uses CEC over HDMI to discover multiple devices and support UIs from those devices just before Gamescom 2012 where we suspect a new PS3 slimmer slim is to be announced.
So is this basically saying I can use a [Sony] TV's native UI to control my Playstation?
i.e. Connecting a Playstation would present additional UI options.
That would be more seamless interface than the current CEC method, but would it need new hardware or simply new software?
phosphor112
Banned
Either that or the PS3's to control the TV.
Glorified G
Member
After translating the article in english, most likely it's 16gb.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I'm trying to follow your logic.
The PS3-CEH 2000 uses HDMI CEC and a Sony petent related to HDMI CEC is filed around the same time (but invented much earlier, you also have a year to file after first 'offered for sale') and now a new model is coming it is relate how? Are you just looking for patents dates and connecting them to pieces of news or rumors? Sound very unhealthy.
It seems people think products and patents are more closely coupled, which is pretty far from the truth.
Graphics Horse
Member
It's simply an exploration of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I think a 16 gig PS3 4000 chassis and the rumors of 16 gig Flash memory in a PS4 is interesting. It lends support that Flash memory might be used for fast booting in all platforms, even those that have a Hard Disk.
Yup, just new software in all Sony platforms including the PS3. XMB (default first/main layer) is not changing significantly except for what you see in the patent.Graphics Horse said:
XMB bar moving up with regions in bottom right and left with other information. Center reserved for drop down as normal for selected XMB.
It implies more CEC control options and locking us into an all Sony ecosystem; must have a Sony TV and PS3 or Sony TV and BLu-ray player for this XMB functionality. It could signal configurable UI depending on the connected device, I.E. RVU support which again is webkit (subset) UI over home network.
In any case major firmware updates are coming and could be announced at Gamescom and/or TGS.
mclaren777
Member
Some people might want a PS3 for Blu-ray, Netflix, or PSN games.
16GB (with the potential to add another HDD) actually sounds like a brilliant idea.
Theonik
Member
But why would a person that is after those buy a 16GB slim over the plethora of much cheaper options available these days? If he actually intends to play games a 16GB PS3 is almost useless considering a vast percentage of the PS3 games have mandatory installations.
Unless this new model is even cheaper than people expect it to be. (which also begs the question, that a PS3 that discourages people from buying games needs to have quite good margins as they can't rely on people who bought to buy many games and profit on royalties)
Maybe that person is the working-force parent and his kid is going crazy for years because he can't have PS3 and his friends are having it, or he just want to have it for the sake of having, irrelevant.
Now he can have it because in the mindset of the parent the "159" price tag is visually more justifiable for holiday-purchase than "229".
Simple.
jeff_rigby
Banned
100% agree but step out of the box, on-line games and AR combinations coming with little storage overhead and cheap or free buy-in but on-going costs like with Home.
And imagine that, Sony's new 4000 chassis also has Flash RAM storage JUST LIKE THE Xbox360 and can support the same bottom end pricing.
Must keep retailers happy so lots of accessories coming. Hard disks as accessories with easier install (totally automated, just plug the drive into the bay).
Canis lupus
Member
16GB is more than enough for people who ocassionally play a game, watch some bluray or netflix. At 149 this will be a great deal since it can also play PS3 games, most newer PS3 games don't require installation anyway. Even if they do its like 1 or 2GB max.
You need to own a lot of games to run out of space. Most people that buy consoles don't fall under that category, specially at this point in their lifecycle.
It may also be a good option for gaffers as well, as you can buy this cheap PS3 and a 1TB HDD separately.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You know my opinion....
http://www.sata-io.org/technology/sataexpress.asp
AMD's Southbridge supports PCIe. Sony wants very fast load times.
So much potential and so much not known about plans for that potential. We can only guess given clues but it's still a guess.
2008 plans started - 2010 prototypes certified - 2012 production
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Err? Vita comes with zero storage. Owners need to purchase a proprietary flash card from Sony, it is one of the major criticisms of Vita, the entry price is decent at $249, but a lot of games require a flash card to be inserted and that adds $20 to the system cost.
MiloFoxburr
Member
It was discovered recently that Vita has 4gb built in. It's just reserved entirely for the OS. The User has no access to it.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
So it is essentially useless for us, almost all of the 16GB will be available to the user and won't require additional storage to save games or download PSN titles.
Knowing Sony, it'll be a bare circuit board with a SATA connector that resides in the HDD slot that you'll have to take out when replacing with a HDD.
I replace my PS3 HDD's with 7200rpm versions anyway, so that'd be fine with me, no need to pay for a HDD that I'm never going to use.
Theonik
Member
Well, roughly 14GB out of this 16GB should be usable anyway. (since PS3 reserves 10% out of any storage device for various uses)
A lot of games is an exaggeration considering, installs float around 2-4GB in most cases and in some go up to 6. By that data that's only 3-6 games you can install in there without accounting for patches, FW updates, saves and possible DLC. This would pretty much be a box for people who want to play something like FIFA or the latest CoD game that typically don't have installs. Therein though lies the question, how cheap would it actually be and whether it's actually appealing. An SKU that is basically crippled on how many games its owner can play is also crippled in terms of how much Sony can rely on royalties from those consumers, so by extension Sony cannot afford to pass on the full benefits of the cost reduction to people buying that SKU.
there are people that only buy the new cod/fifa/madden
or some gta
then you have persons that have hdd unused so they can just get the cheap version.
or use the hdd from their old ps3
also you can use is only as bluray/streaming etc
if you get alot of games just get the 250gb for a bit more.....
Excuse me for butting in. I've been lurking here at NeoGAF for ages but at some point I have to give in my urge to simply yell a "Halt" to the ever increasing weird postings of jeff_rigby. The chip you mention doesn't exist and certainly won't exist for the next months as AMD isn't even close to a 22nm process. You are good at finding press releases, conference papers, patent filings but please don't mix them into futuristic superchips (3D memory stacked APUs etc) that will never materialise in the console business (which is all about manufacturing the sub-$199 machine). Sorry for the rant to the readers, I'll try to keep quiet in the future.
jeff_rigby
Banned
No reason to be sorry. I was wrong, misread and didn't know enough to understand 22nm was the last planned die size for AMD's Southbridge ("AMD’s 22nm Southbridge chips will probably be the last ones to be “impacted by scaling” said Black"). While I knew the 2012 GPU was to be @40nm and 2013 GPU @ 28nm I assumed the Southbridge needed the smaller die size for efficiency reasons as it has to drive a PCIe buss external to the SOC at fairly high speeds. Turns out Southbridge is a node process behind the GPU, at least to this point. I do not claim to be a professional and appreciate correction. We are typically a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks in these blogs and during transitional times like this the professionals who pop in from time to time are NDA from correcting or adding anything to the understanding.
As to 3D memory stacked APUs in game consoles look at page 21 in this link. Page 15 notice Chip on Wafer on Substrate as that is what I expect is coming short term. It's mentioned by AMD that their overflow (what they can't handle) will be assembled by TSMC using Chip on Wafer on Substrate and AMD will build using a less expensive SOC design. Trace length in both cases to memory is short enough to be considered in package and stacked although it might be 2.5D side by side. Since traces to memory are in a multi-layer substrate there is no problem with the # of traces to 256 bit wide memory.
Stacked Memory plus GPU plus substrate. Two of the 4 CUSTOM memory chips are in the red dotted circle (could be total 256, 4 64 bit wide chips). This is the same 2.5D substrate + Interposer technology we will probably see supporting the PS4 SOC just with PS4 SOC much LARGER. It also looks like the following picture includes Southbridge. Just missing the CPUs and MMU for CPU and it would be a APU including memory.
AMD Process Optimized building blocks includes custom memory (from AMD) and cites I posted confirm Micron developed Custom memory (high density stacked memory) for AMD to include in next generation game consoles; the picture confirms Stacked memory, most likely 256 or 512 ultra wide I/O. Stacked memory 2.5D attached in the PS4 SOC is possible, the picture proves it.
The Xbox 360S was a SOC with transposer 2.5D attached stacked memory.
The reported 4Gb Flash in Vita ? If it's indeed there, it's useful for us when switching apps/games, and when using memory hogs like the web browser.
phosphor112
Banned
I would have loved a no HDD option so I can throw in my own. My last PS3 (the one that got stolen...) had a 500GB HDD. I had it half full with games... Now i got a replacement (free with my wifes laptop) and it only has a shitty 160gig.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
It's probably reserved storage space for OS things like trophies and data for the app bubbles.
Yes, since the memcard is heavily DRM'ed, an off-limit, internal flash storage is useful for many OS and app activities.
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