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[Deleted member 231381]

Lisia in oras was otaku shit

Brionne is just freaking seal

Lisia was terrible. Most disappointed I've been in the franchise's character designs in a while.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Man some of y'all blame everything y'all hate on those damn otaku.

Yeah Brionne is pretty girly. So? Who says every starter has to be super manly. (Which is doubly funny with Luchacat is also here , hell the siren design could even pass for a effeminate man design more than Lucha could pass for a female)

just say Machop line lol

 

[Jimnymebob]

Typically I think they don't have the first stage be masculine or feminine because they are child like, but they become more pronounced when they 'grow up'.

Also, they have had a gender neutral Tepig evolve into buff, masculine Emboar, and nobody complained then about them making it too manly. Why can't we have at least one feminine starter line. Its only fair imo.

You are assuming girls don't want or like fem designs, and some don't. But there are a large amount of young girls who play these games who do like that look, so if anything its nice to at least have one option that appeals to that group.

I'm not saying that girls don't want a feminine design, I'm just saying the way they've handled it these past couple of gens is similar to your average 'here's your red and blue handheld console with the new Mario, plus a pink handheld with Pretty Fashion for Girlz', if you get where I'm coming from. Sure, there are definitely girls (and boys) who'd want the pink system and game, but it seems to be forcing the seal as 'the Pokémon for girls to choose'.

I'm also not really sure what they could do to get around the issue, because I agree that there's no reason for them to not have one or more feminine looking starter. I've never been a huge Chikorita fan, but it's final evolution is the perfect example of what I want in a starter: it's not masculine or feminine, so it makes it easier for the player to project what gender they perceive onto it, as opposed to something like Emboar, as you pointed out.

Well this is kind of neutered by the fact that feminine pokemon aren't necessarily female. Actually if previous starters are an indication then there will be a 87.5% chance Popplio will be male for most people, and there's even a decent chance that someone picking Rowlet will get a female one. Like if a girl wanted to go with a female only team they're not obligated to go with Popplio.

Then again they'll probably have to restart the game until they get a female starter by chance and why it's 87.5% male 12.5% female is its own weird thing.

EDIT: The starter gender ratio is different than what I initially said. I fixed it.

This is another thing that confuses me too. I can't remember if Mr. Mime can be both genders, but I know there are definitely some Pokémon that are clearly meant to be one gender but can be both, but why don't they either fix the gender of these to be a set thing, or do the Nidoran line thing of adding a male and female variant? Or even something like how the fire lion from X and Y was?

 

[Dark Orchid]

This is another thing that confuses me too. I can't remember if Mr. Mime can be both genders, but I know there are definitely some Pokémon that are clearly meant to be one gender but can be both, but why don't they either fix the gender of these to be a set thing, or do the Nidoran line thing of adding a male and female variant? Or even something like how the fire lion from X and Y was?

Mr. Mime can be both, but this is an issue brought up by the localization of R/B before there were genders. Mr. Mime's Japanese name is Barrierd, which isn't gendered.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Mr. Mime's name is gender neutral in the Japanese and you can have female mimes, so that's a translation goof more than anything else.

EDIT: beaten.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Mr. Mime can be both, but this is an issue brought up by the localization of R/B before there were genders. Mr. Mime's Japanese name is Barrierd, which isn't gendered.

Oh, OK. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Edit: Double thanks.

If there are any others like that, which are explicitly designed to appear as one gender but can be both, hopefully my point still stands.

 

[SliceSabre]

This is another thing that confuses me too. I can't remember if Mr. Mime can be both genders, but I know there are definitely some Pokémon that are clearly meant to be one gender but can be both, but why don't they either fix the gender of these to be a set thing, or do the Nidoran line thing of adding a male and female variant? Or even something like how the fire lion from X and Y was?

Mr. Mime can be female.

And I see that being a positive thing. So what that Milotic with its feminine features can also be a male or that the Machop line can also be female? Why is that a bad thing?

 

[YAWN]

About Brionne-
I was originally on board with Popplio, I even rocked an avatar of it. After seeing the leaked concepts I jumped ship though. It's fine to have feminine pokemon, neccessary even as they're very feminine real life animals. However, it's not the type of design I tend to be a big fan of. However, I can see the design ethics present and compliment the design team on them, as it is a great design. It's unique, and clearly shows its personality. It has a nice colour scheme and the over all look represents it well.

I think what Crab is getting at is the art ethics used to design it are very common in Otaku media. It's basically based on a young idol, again, very Popular with Otaku. I think it's a good choice to represent the character of the Pokemon, but I can see why people are calling Gamefreak out on it. It's no mistake Braixen, who's based on a magical girl, is more heavily marketed than its evolution. They know the designs not only appeal to young girls, thus can get more milage out of them.

It seems this gen follows gen 6's starters, with one being overly Macho, one being overly Feminine, and one being gender neutral with a cool edge to it. That way they're should be a design for everyone. Whether people take to that though, is iffy.

I know some out right hated all of gen 6's starters and prefer the more animalistic designs. I think it's the trade off of having more personality and diversity within the starters, yet more riskier designs, against sticking to the base animal the design is influenced from for wide spread appeal, with the risk of unoriginality and predictability.

 

[Geminosity]

I mean, sample size of 4, but none of my Pokémon playing sisters like Popplio's design. The eldest (they're half sisters, all significantly younger than me) actually said it was a bit insulting to suppose that girls would necessarily want something with pony tails and big round eyes. She does like 'feminine' designs - Alolan Ninetales has her hyped - but Popplio's line does nothing.

My impression of what they thought is that it is too much of an infantilized portrait of femininity, compared to more 'sophisticated' portraits like Ninetales, Delphox, and Gardevoir. I'm inclined to agree. I don't think the Popplio line was aimed at girls at all, or if it was, then the people doing the design haven't actually met many young girls. I think that it was squarely aimed at the otaku market.

It might be because I have too much NeoGAF exposure and there's always someone with an anime avatar ready to make worrying comments, sure. But the weirdly large eyes, the tiny fang, the schoolgirl ponytails, the mouth on the side of the face because of the lack of perspective - it's exactly the sort of stuff that causes Persona threads to go nuts. And it makes me worry somewhat that they did actually have a particular non-child market in mind when they made that design.

Again, there are many good designs in the Pokémon series that draw on aspects of what society perceives as feminine - Ninetales immediately jumps to mind. It's the fusion of femininity and infantilization I find worrying and borderline sexist - there is no real equivalent, no masculine Pokémon where the childlike aspects are also emphasised.

Sorry but this is about as off-base and reductive as saying that the other two mid evos are only for emos and edgelords. The fang thing isn't even a youth thing, it's just fashionable to have fangs in japan: a lot of women and girls get their teeth done to give them those.

I get kind of annoyed at people who seem to think designs like this are to only 'pander' to guys. It's like they're ignoring girls who like sweet lolita and other hyper femme stuff in their haste to demonise something they don't like >.<

Girls aren't a hive mind any more than guys are so 4 Girls don't speak for everyone

 

[Arcia]

I'm not saying that girls don't want a feminine design, I'm just saying the way they've handled it these past couple of gens is similar to your average 'here's your red and blue handheld console with the new Mario, plus a pink handheld with Pretty Fashion for Girlz', if you get where I'm coming from. Sure, there are definitely girls (and boys) who'd want the pink system and game, but it seems to be forcing the seal as 'the Pokémon for girls to choose'.

That is hardly a fair comparison. Brionne is not mechanically different from any of the other starters, and if you pick a female gender in game for your trainer you are not railroaded into picking Popplio. Girls are not being pushed or forced to choose only the Popplio line any more than boys are being pushed to use only the Litten line. The fact is, people only ever complain about this shit when its a feminine looking design. I never see people complaining that something is too male looking. Theres some subtle bias going on with statements like this.

 

[NSESN]

Dartrix is awesome, i think i will name it Miles Hood

 

[Mik317]

People are often in such a rush to trash otakus and all they like that they ignore the universal fact that not everything is going to appeal to you. So the moment anything remotely jpop inspired happens it's always "damn appealing to those damn deginerates " . It's rather annoying to see.

There are over 800 other designs for you to choose from... let them have a few, no?

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Mr. Mime can be both, but this is an issue brought up by the localization of R/B before there were genders. Mr. Mime's Japanese name is Barrierd, which isn't gendered.

I seem to recall reading somewhere some of localisation staff were concerned with the name in the sense of "Pokemon have genders!?" and "What if Pokemon have genders in future games?" but Mr.Mime stuck despite this.

 

[WrenchNinja]

People are often in such a rush to trash otakus and all they like that they ignore the universal fact that not everything is going to appeal to you. So the moment anything remotely jpop inspired happens it's always "damn appealing to those damn deginerates " . It's rather annoying to see.

There are over 800 other designs for you to choose from... let them have a few, no?

I guess people can be thankful that Brionne wont ever have to shave its head on tv as punishment for disobeying its fans

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I seem to recall reading somewhere some of localisation staff were concerned with the name in the sense of "Pokemon have genders!?" and "What if Pokemon have genders in future games?" but Mr.Mime stuck despite this.

I just want to know who sat around a table and decided "Mr. Mime" was a good name for a Pokémon.

 

[ajim]

Probably some of if not the worst starter evolutions ever. Uh.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

I will say. Thank god Synchro is officially dead.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Mr. Mime can be female.

And I see that being a positive thing. So what that Milotic with its feminine features can also be a male or that the Machop line can also be female? Why is that a bad thing?

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just don't understand why they deal with Pokemon genders in so many different ways. Like you have the Nidorans, things like gender differences like female Pikachu having a heart tail, Pokémon having completely different appearances due to gender like Pyroar, some have locked genders like Jynx, then some that look like they should be a certain gender, like the leaked final evolution fire starter and the middle seal starter, but can be both.

That is hardly a fair comparison. Brionne is not mechanically different from any of the other starters, and if you pick a female gender in game for your trainer you are not railroaded into picking Popplio. Girls are not being pushed or forced to choose only the Popplio line any more than boys are being pushed to use only the Litten line. The fact is, people only ever complain about this shit when its a feminine looking design. I never see people complaining that something is too male looking. Theres some subtle bias going on with statements like this.

I know that. As I said earlier, I'm not a huge fan of the starters of this gen and last gen due to the fact they were all explicitly given genders in their designs, not that feminine Pokémon are bad and that all Pokémon should be hyper masculine. They're clearly all focused tested to appeal primarily to certain genders, as opposed to something like Pikachu. I know they don't necessarily appeal to everyone from that gender, but you can't deny that they're aimed towards a specific one/S.

 

[PadWarrior]

Hope the demo is longer than the oras one.

 

[Syntsui]

Did you guys complain about feminine designs when Chikorita was announced?

 

[escapegoat]

Did you guys complain about feminine designs when Chikorita was announced?

Genders didn't exist back then.

 

[entremet]

Genders didn't exist back then.

Yes they did. It started in Gen 2.

 

[Already Torn]

Did you guys complain about feminine designs when Chikorita was announced?

I mean up until now I thought Chikorita was one of the worst starters too. Bayleef is cooo though.

 

[Shadow Broker]

Yes they did. It started in Gen 2.

Technically it started in Gen one with Nidoran M and Nidoran F.

It was just applied to almost all the other Pokémon in Gen two.

 

[woopWOOP]

Feminine mons are rad, still #teampopplio

I'll need one of you US players to trade me one of those owls too tho, when I play my PAL copy a week later :V

 

[SliceSabre]

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just don't understand why they deal with Pokemon genders in so many different ways. Like you have the Nidorans, things like gender differences like female Pikachu having a heart tail, Pokémon having completely different appearances due to gender like Pyroar, some have locked genders like Jynx, then some that look like they should be a certain gender, like the leaked final evolution fire starter and the middle seal starter, but can be both.

I tended to assume they borrow from how...well...it kinda works like that in nature. Kinda like how a male peacock looks radically different from a female peacock but then a male and female ostrich look exactly alike. Or how a male lion looks much different than a female.

 

[Already Torn]

I wonder why they decided to make Jynx female only in Gen 2 but let Mr. Mine be whatever?

 

[Boss Doggie]

I wonder why they decided to make Jynx female only in Gen 2 but let Mr. Mine be whatever?

Barrierd

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Did you guys complain about feminine designs when Chikorita was announced?

People aren't complaining about feminine designs. This strawman is really obnoxious. I'm a huge proponent of feminine designs/characters/roles in pretty much any format of media. People are complaining that the specific iconography that the Popplio line draws on is one mostly consumed by a subculture that has a really unhealthy attitude towards women, particularly young women.

 

[Arcia]

People aren't complaining about feminine designs. This strawman is really obnoxious. I'm a huge proponent of feminine designs/characters/roles in pretty much any format of media. People are complaining that the specific iconography that the Popplio line draws on is one mostly consumed by a subculture that has a really unhealthy attitude towards women, particularly young women.

Yeah, and other people here are saying you are being ridiculous and reading that into the design when that is not the designers' intent.

 

[Sou Da]

People aren't complaining about feminine designs. This strawman is really obnoxious. I'm a huge proponent of feminine designs/characters/roles in pretty much any format of media. People are complaining that the specific iconography that the Popplio line draws on is one mostly consumed by a subculture that has a really unhealthy attitude towards women, particularly young women.

Maybe Brionne I guess but the last evo just straight up looks like mermaid seal.

 

[ionitron]

In the subject of Popplio's line: While Popplio was by far my least favorite of them when initially announced, if those final leaked evos are real (Which I mean by this point they pretty much are) I will gladly, glaaaadly take a more feminine starter. I LOVE everything about that final evolution for popplio and a lot of traits in it are things that I really like design-wise in other characters. Let me have my feminine Poke. If you can have female infernape then let me have my pretty line for once, lol.

I know noone outright hates the design for being feminine and I'm not calling anyone out or anything, I'm just really happy that one exists and expressing that. I also think the idea there was well said here:

It seems this gen follows gen 6's starters, with one being overly Macho, one being overly Feminine, and one being gender neutral with a cool edge to it. That way they're should be a design for everyone. Whether people take to that though, is iffy.

Personally I really love all the designs for the starters, they all have distinct personalities to them.



Also I never took popplio to be based on idols? Very much more mermaid like to me, I dunno.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Feminine mons are rad, still #teampopplio

I'll need one of you US players to trade me one of those owls too tho, when I play my PAL copy a week later :V

Thanks for reminding me of that*. What makes the Europe a week late thing even worse is Europe is the first region getting a big tournament under VGC17 rules so has even less preparation time. I do wonder if the Europe a week late thing is just due to server load (remember how Game Sync never worked at XY launch) rather than "those Frenchies leaked it all"

Spoiler

seems to be Chinese translators (and soon the demo?) this time

*-Though I have the option of getting the Australian version of the game digitally...at hideous cost (due to eShop prices and Brexit) which I'm seriously considering.

I wonder why they decided to make Jynx female only in Gen 2 but let Mr. Mine be whatever?

They made Tauros male only instead (well female Tauros is probably Miltank but they never made this a breeding thing...they could have made one of those baby Pokemon everyone hates be the link or just been like how Nidoran Female female eggs can be Nidoran male or Nidoran female*).

*-I say Nidoran female as unlike Nidorino and Nindoking; Nidorina and Nidoqueen can not breed.

 

[woopWOOP]

Brionne has pigtails, a flesh skirt and fangs, but it's still a blob-like seal so the end result is just super goofy to me.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Maybe Brionne I guess but the last evo just straight up looks like mermaid seal.

Yeah, I'm hoping so. I don't want to rely on the leaks too much - they're probably real, but they could be e.g. early concepts - the Torchic line changed enormously from the early concept art.

 

[SliceSabre]

People aren't complaining about feminine designs. This strawman is really obnoxious. I'm a huge proponent of feminine designs/characters/roles in pretty much any format of media. People are complaining that the specific iconography that the Popplio line draws on is one mostly consumed by a subculture that has a really unhealthy attitude towards women, particularly young women.

Which is a very bizarre issue to have.

Like having a problem with the Machop line because it draws from the wrestling world which is well known for its steroid drug use and having a toxic hyper-masculine culture around it.

 

[Arcia]

Maybe Brionne I guess but the last evo just straight up looks like mermaid seal.

No, its obviously a lolita moe fetish idol that otaku are meant to fantasize about /s

 

[God Dayumm]

Which is a very bizarre issue to have.

Like having a problem with the Machop line because it draws from the wrestling world which is well known for its steroid drug use and having a toxic hyper-masculine culture around it.

But it does not pander to pedophiles so there is nothing depraved about wrestling.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I tended to assume they borrow from how...well...it kinda works like that in nature. Kinda like how a male peacock looks radically different from a female peacock but then a male and female ostrich look exactly alike. Or how a male lion looks much different than a female.

I'm referring more to the more humanoid ones, especially ones that look like they are wearing clothing. Like why couldn't a female Machoke look identical but wear a sports bra too, or a male Braixen not have the skirt for example?
And before anyone says anything, there's nothing wrong with a male or female of those Pokémon wearing any combination of those clothes, so I'm not saying it's wrong for a male Braixen to have a skirt, I'm more getting at the fact that there isn't really any reason for them to be/appear to be clothed in the first place aside from giving them a gender association.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

So after all that two-legs Litten evolution was fake? I mean, this Litten evolution doesn't look like will turn into that two-legs fighting type.

Litten is still my favorite giving this new form. I liked Popplio evolution as well. Rowlet, not so much.

 

[PadWarrior]

So after all that two-legs Litten evolution was fake? I mean, this Litten evolution doesn't look like will turn into that two-legs fighting type.

Litten is still my favorite giving this new form. I liked Popplio evolution as well. Rowlet, not so much.

No that leak is looking to be legit.

 

[Arcia]

So after all that two-legs Litten evolution was fake? I mean, this Litten evolution doesn't look like will turn into that two-legs fighting type.

Litten is still my favorite giving this new form. I liked Popplio evolution as well. Rowlet, not so much.

I think if anything this makes it look like it will evolve into wrestlecat. Its front legs are thicker than its back, and I could easily see its flame spewing collar turn into that flame spewing belt.

 

[Syntsui]

Genders didn't exist back then.

You sure know a lot about Pokémon huh?

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I feel pretty confident in saying it's probably to make breeding starters harder. Which might matter if dittos weren't a thing

Why would you they want to make it harder?

 

[PadWarrior]

I hope ash greninja isn't too high of a level so I can use him right away in the full game.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

No that leak is looking to be legit.

I think if anything this makes it look like it will evolve into wrestlecat. Its front legs are thicker than its back, and I could easily see its flame spewing collar turn into that flame spewing belt.

Damn! I probably just want to believe!

 

[Sou Da]

I hope ash greninja isn't too high of a level so I can use him right away in the full game.

So you like cheating or?

 

[Arcia]

Damn! I probably just want to believe!

At this point I'm just hoping it won't be fighting type. Maybe it will be a dark type. Its a wrestler, so that would make it a heel. Would be a fun concept!

 

[Yrael]

I really like Torracat...but I don't like the leaked final form of it. :/ Here's to hoping that each of the starters will have branching evolutions like Rockruff, as possibly hinted at by their shared "secret."

 

[Sou Da]

I really like Torracat...but I don't like the leaked final form of it. :/ Here's to hoping that each of the starters will have branching evolutions like Rockruff, as possibly hinted at by their shared "secret."

That's not a thing.